Jonathan Coulton says that Glee Stole his song

[Lejuan]

I was saying that lack of creativity or originality is the broader issue that encompasses both. Sir Mix-A-Lot, or whoever wrote the original version should also have something to say LEGALLY.

He is objecting to someone making a copy of a song that he copied from someone else. Its almost like someone complaining that someone bootlegged their bootleg.

Sir Mix-A-Lot has nothing to do with this at all. The link to him was broken once Coulton legally procured the license to create his own arrangement. It is the arrangement by Coulton that is being contested, not the lyrics or anything else to do with the original source material.

There is no "broader issue" of perceived "lack of creativity or originality". This is your own value judgement and wouldn't stand up for one second in any court of law.

 

[devilof76]

Not only that, but the value judgment is entirely fallacious. All creation is an act of re-integrating material that existed previously, whether it be raw sound or another's composition. There are levels of origination, but to condemn an arrangement as bereft of creativity is completely ignorant. I don't know how someone could conclude otherwise, unless they are unfamiliar with the process themselves.

(I'm sitting here with All Along the Watchtower in my head, imagining how Hendrix could have possibly created that masterpiece while refraining from an act of genuine creativity. LOL!)

 

[Boba Ben]

I'm sure he does have a lot of original material, but we were talking about just this one song, and not his entire library.

Yes, every musician that covers someone else's song displays lack of creativity. How can you logically find otherwise?
At the very least, there is a lack of creativity by using that particular song, which does not necessarily reflect the musicians overall creative talent.

I can logically find otherwise. I can especially so with this Coulton version because he arranged it in a way that makes it his own and Glee clearly wanted to use his version of the song, not Sir-Mix-A-Lot's. Listen to Pet Shop Boys' version of "Always on My Mind" or Johnny Cash's take on "Hurt" or Jimi Hendrix's version of "All Along the Watchtower". These are cover songs as well, but they have their own creative take on the song that makes it fresh and new. Some even consider them to be better than the originals.

Additionally, artists cover songs for various reasons. They may want to revive a song from their youth, they may wish to pay homage to the original because they like it, or they may have a fresh take on the song that hasn't been done before. I don't see what there is to condemn about this. That makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, whether you want to argue that his covering a song shows that he lacks creativity or not, it has no bearing on the legal issue at hand. The issue is that he paid to cover the song with his own arrangement and they took his arrangement and used it without permission.

 

[IrishJedi]

The guy who wrote "Code Monkey", "Millionaire Girlfriend" and "Re: Your Brains" > anything to do with GLEE.

 

[karamazov80]

Yes, every musician that covers someone else's song displays lack of creativity. How can you logically find otherwise?
At the very least, there is a lack of creativity by using that particular song, which does not necessarily reflect the musicians overall creative talent.

The Modern Jazz Quartet reinterpreted their own song "Django" many times in various different ways. Each one was a novel, creative take on it. Everything we see in entertainment is derivative of something else in some way. Work in a cover song is not necessarily more or less creative than anything else. I'm sure *insert modern pop star X here*'s original work involved a hell of a lot less creativity than some well done covers like the Chili Peppers' "Higher Ground." But. . .whatever.

 

[The Ween]

I'm sure he does have a lot of original material, but we were talking about just this one song, and not his entire library.

Yes, every musician that covers someone else's song displays lack of creativity. How can you logically find otherwise?
At the very least, there is a lack of creativity by using that particular song, which does not necessarily reflect the musicians overall creative talent.

I would agree with you if we were talking about sampling, but writing whole new arrangements is another thing altogether.

 

[Darth Cruel]

I'm sure he does have a lot of original material, but we were talking about just this one song, and not his entire library.

Yes, every musician that covers someone else's song displays lack of creativity. How can you logically find otherwise?
At the very least, there is a lack of creativity by using that particular song, which does not necessarily reflect the musicians overall creative talent.

This qualification of your statement goes farther toward contradicting it, than supporting it.

 

[Shatterer of Dreams]

I'm sure he does have a lot of original material, but we were talking about just this one song, and not his entire library.

Yes, every musician that covers someone else's song displays lack of creativity. How can you logically find otherwise?
At the very least, there is a lack of creativity by using that particular song, which does not necessarily reflect the musicians overall creative talent.

This here is insane. A cover only lacks creativity if its a copy and paste redo of the original. If the song has a completely new arrangement then there is still a writing process involved here. Just look at Flaming Lips cover of Madonna's Borderline and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, it's almost a completely different song. No lack of creativity there.

I would agree with you if we were talking about sampling, but writing whole new arrangements is another thing altogether.

Sampling still takes a lot of creativity (unless you're talking about someone like a P Diddy who keeps bars intact) and if you heard someone like Girl Talk you'd see what I mean.

 

[Blackthornone]

Sir Mix-A-Lot has nothing to do with this at all. The link to him was broken once Coulton legally procured the license to create his own arrangement. It is the arrangement by Coulton that is being contested, not the lyrics or anything else to do with the original source material.

There is no "broader issue" of perceived "lack of creativity or originality". This is your own value judgement and wouldn't stand up for one second in any court of law.

The lyrics are the SAME, for significant parts of the song at least, and insofar as that is concerned, it lacks creativity in the sense that it isn't AS creative as coming up with original lyrics.

From an artistic standpoint, it is less creative to do a cover than an original, at least as far as making a great song is concerned. I wasn't talking about the law. The law changes all of the time and thus is inherently capricious and without integrity.

Coulton lacked the creativity to write an original song instead of using another persons lyrics, and GLEE borrowed or used his version of the song for their show. It's what GLEE does. The vast majority of the time, (which I say only because I don't recall them with any original material, but perhaps there was) covers famous pop and rock songs from various musicians on every show they do.

If GLEE didn't cover famous songs, then the show would be vastly different, because it would lose the hook of the nostalgia and the pop appeal. I wonder if Coulton was the first to complain or not give permission or the first not to be complimented.

 

[Blackthornone]

This here is insane. A cover only lacks creativity if its a copy and paste redo of the original. If the song has a completely new arrangement then there is still a writing process involved here. Just look at Flaming Lips cover of Madonna's Borderline and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, it's almost a completely different song. No lack of creativity there.



Sampling still takes a lot of creativity (unless you're talking about someone like a P Diddy who keeps bars intact) and if you heard someone like Girl Talk you'd see what I mean.

I'm not saying it is TOTALLY lacking in creativity. That would be incorrect. I am saying it is lacking in creativity in the sense that it is less creative than a totally original piece.
In that vein, Coulton's borrowing of Sir Mix-A-Lots lyrics and GLEEs use of Coultons version of the song have something in common.
It would be different if Journey complained about them singing Don't Stop Believin, which GLEE did.
To me the larger issue is originality, and not legality.

 

[karamazov80]

I'm not saying it is TOTALLY lacking in creativity. That would be incorrect. I am saying it is lacking in creativity in the sense that it is less creative than a totally original piece.

So this cover of a Bob Dylan song:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2bYJQFQMs8[/ame]

is less creative than this original creation:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oai1V7kaFBk[/ame]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Blackthornone]

So this cover of a Bob Dylan song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2bYJQFQMs8

is less creative than this original creation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oai1V7kaFBk

Got it. Thanks.

All other factors being equal, of course, just like in every other thing.
In terms of a great song, of course the Jimi Hendrix version of a Bob Dylan song is a better song, because he STARTED OUT with an ALREADY great song. All you need to do is make it a little different to be "your own" and not screw it up, and it's still a great song.

The most creativity is about making something from nothing. The less you start out with, and the more you achieve with it, the more creative that accomplishment is.
If you start with something great, it is easier to make something greater than it is to work from scratch. Your post actually supports what I have been saying all along.

As it happens, I don't believe that the "something" that is Thong Song is all that much of a something, but it was made from nothing, so it's a tough comparison. Started with nothing, and got something slightly better than nothing.

All along the Watchtower started with something and made arguably a better something.

So All along the Watchtower is better.

However, something like Journey's Don't Stop Believin is a greater creative achievement, because it was original, and a really great song, for one example.



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUYuIVbFg0[/ame]

 

[Lejuan]

I was saying that lack of creativity or originality is the broader issue that encompasses both. Sir Mix-A-Lot, or whoever wrote the original version should also have something to say LEGALLY.

He is objecting to someone making a copy of a song that he copied from someone else. Its almost like someone complaining that someone bootlegged their bootleg.

I wasn't talking about the law. The law changes all of the time and thus is inherently capricious and without integrity.

_____________

 

[Blackthornone]

_____________

Those two posts do not contradict each other.
I said it's ALMOST like a bootleg of a bootleg. The issue I have been arguing is about originality. And yes, the law does change quite a bit over the years. I mean the law in general. Furthermore the law is different from Country to Country, even at the same time, so its all pretty capricious and arbitrary.

 

[Lejuan]

The issue I have been arguing is about originality.

In a thread whose topic is whether or not Glee used Coulton's cover arrangement of "Baby Got Back" without asking permission, one has to wonder why.

In any case, Bob Dylan disagrees:

"I liked Jimi Hendrix's record of this and ever since he died I've being doing it that way.... Strange though how when I sing it I always feel it's a tribute to him in some kind of way."

But he's just one of the great artists of the 20th century. What would he know about creativity and originality...

 

[batfan08]

Glee sucks, but some of the chicks on the show are hott!!!

My other half loves Glee, it brings her great joy as Terminator does for me. I wouldn't begrudge her it. And yes the female contingent of the cast are letchworthy (all legal I might add).

Diana Agron is so much hotter than Lea Michelle.

 

[Lejuan]

Diana Agron is so much hotter than Lea Michelle.

You don't have to choose. I would bone them all.

 

[batfan08]

Even the fat ones and the dudes!?!

 

[Blackthornone]

In a thread whose topic is whether or not Glee used Coulton's cover arrangement of "Baby Got Back" without asking permission, one has to wonder why.

In any case, Bob Dylan disagrees:

"I liked Jimi Hendrix's record of this and ever since he died I've being doing it that way.... Strange though how when I sing it I always feel it's a tribute to him in some kind of way."

But he's just one of the great artists of the 20th century. What would he know about creativity and originality...

Why don't you read the post I made above about creativity being able to do the most with the least. Bob Dylan's fondness for Hendrixs version of his song only means that he likes it and that I would guess he was a friend and that it reminds him of him.
Talent and skill are not the same as creativity, by the way. A person could copy someone else's work, which takes phenomenal talent and skill, but no creativity. Talent and skill are always involved with creativity, though.

Dylan didn't say that Hendrix doing a version of his song was as creative and original as his own version, which is what you were attempting to prove.

An artist might be very talented and have great creative ability, but that does not mean that everything they do is particularly creative, or equally creative, even though they still perform that task with the same talent.

For example, if someone sculpts a totally original piece, that is a creative achievement . However, if that same person sculpts an exact copy, the second one is not a creative achievement, because nothing new was accomplished, even though it might have required about the same level of talent or skill to do it.

 

[Lejuan]

Even the fat ones and the dudes!?!

Well the older I get the less choosy I'm inclined to be... but yeah, I don't know if I'll ever be up for going Spartan in the bedroom.