MARVEL'S: LOKI

[Theokan]

lol been having too much TMNT goodness

 

[Sassafras]

Solid show so far. Mainly cause I expect nothing from it.

Don't know what I expected, but after the FWS *&^% (except for Zemo) dread what kind of politically correct lecturing tepid SJW dribble this was gonna be.

Instead IMO a great show with characters I like and plenty of twists. Still don't trust Phase 4 tho. Still plan on skipping any more of the new Cap since the same showrunner got rehired.

Re YT comments which seem to want Loki to be more evil, or something; for me whatever. IMO the character was never wholly good or bad; he's the comic trickster with a huge comic legacy. Think the show does him justice along with Hiddleston who's amazing. IMO the show feels like the MCU I became a fan of.

Unlike Bucky getting nerfed and Sam Wilson being a financially incompetent bore. Hilariously having an unknown villain is more menacing than the rehash teenage supersoldiers zzzzzz.

 

[The Buffinator]

This is only plausible because of what the Ancient One said in Endgame (returning the stones restores the timeline). However, what about Steve staying behind with Peggy? I reckon that would have created a new variant timeline. This is a major plothole for Loki IMO.

It did and Steve lived in it with Peggy, then after she died he returned the stone and that branch was reset. Evidently his living a fantasy life with Peggy wasn't enough to threaten the multi-verse and set off alarm bells in the TVA - probably because they knew that the honorable Captain America would eventually put back the stone as promised.

 

[e30ernest]

It did and Steve lived in it with Peggy, then after she died he returned the stone and that branch was reset. Evidently his living a fantasy life with Peggy wasn't enough to threaten the multi-verse and set off alarm bells in the TVA - probably because they knew that the honorable Captain America would eventually put back the stone as promised.

That's not how I understood the TVA "Nexus Events" to work though. Their time travel works in real time (that's why they cannot go back to the beginning of a Nexus event) so even if Cap was intending to return the stones, his timeline would have been deviating every second he was there.

It's probably moot though since the way the show is going, the TVA is probably not protecting the timeline at all. Rather, they are probably protecting a timeline where whoever is pulling the strings came from. This timeline may have needed the events of Endgame to happen as it did in order to exist.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It did and Steve lived in it with Peggy, then after she died he returned the stone and that branch was reset. Evidently his living a fantasy life with Peggy wasn't enough to threaten the multi-verse and set off alarm bells in the TVA - probably because they knew that the honorable Captain America would eventually put back the stone as promised.

Think of all the things that happened, how many people died that didn't have to, because Steve retired to be with Peggy... even though he knew what was coming.

He could have warned against Pearl Harbor...

He could have stopped 911...

He could have saved Kennedy (political choice of course)... stopped Watergate... ended the Cuban Missile Crisis before it started... stopped the Pinto from being created... sent George Lucas to another dimension right before Howard the Duck... so many things could have been averted.

 

[ZE_501]

Think of all the things that happened, how many people died that didn't have to, because Steve retired to be with Peggy... even though he knew what was coming.

He could have warned against Pearl Harbor...

He could have stopped 911...

He could have saved Kennedy (political choice of course)... stopped Watergate... ended the Cuban Missile Crisis before it started... stopped the Pinto from being created... sent George Lucas to another dimension right before Howard the Duck... so many things could have been averted.

Not really a political choice to stop the murder of an unarmed man. He could have stopped all of those things but all of those interventions would have had unforeseen consequences that could have been worse, so I guess that's the logic behind him doing nothing. But what a burden.

 

[The Buffinator]

Think of all the things that happened, how many people died that didn't have to, because Steve retired to be with Peggy... even though he knew what was coming.

He could have warned against Pearl Harbor...

He could have stopped 911...

He could have saved Kennedy (political choice of course)... stopped Watergate... ended the Cuban Missile Crisis before it started... stopped the Pinto from being created... sent George Lucas to another dimension right before Howard the Duck... so many things could have been averted.

Who knows, maybe he did all of those things, but it would have been in a separate, variant branch in time that was erased once he put the stone back. Remember, in the Endgame reality the past is the past and all those things happened and couldn't be erased. Tony used the gauntlet to bring everyone back, but that didn't change the fact that they had been dusted by Thanos and lost 5 years.

 

[Wor-Gar]

He couldn't have done all those things or he never would have been able to appear on that bench with his shield as an old man.

Maybe one of two things you could change with little repercussion -- like sending George Lucas away -- but you couldn't divert Pearl Harbor or 911 or a presidential assassination without major would-altering ramifications.

 

[e30ernest]

He can't change Pearl Harbor though since he went back after Pearl Harbor.

 

[matticus]

Well whatever the finale brings, it will be just as good as WandaVision and FWS.

 

[e30ernest]

Well whatever the finale brings, it will be just as good as WandaVision and FWS.

I was sort of ok with WV so I'm ok with that. FWS though is just....

 

[The Buffinator]

He couldn't have done all those things or he never would have been able to appear on that bench with his shield as an old man.

Maybe one of two things you could change with little repercussion -- like sending George Lucas away -- but you couldn't divert Pearl Harbor or 911 or a presidential assassination without major would-altering ramifications.

Sure he could have - in that variant timeline. Remember, as soon as he & Tony stole the Tesseract from that Shield base they created (per the Ancient One) a branch time stream. He could go back and live in that branch for another 50 years with Peggy, do whatever the hell he wanted and then time jump back to the same date in the 70s and replace the Tesseract, effectively resetting everything - save the fact that he aged 50 years. The trick is he brought the Tesseract back when he hooked up with Peggy, but he didn’t PUT IT BACK where it was taken from until she died.

 

[Wor-Gar]

He can't change Pearl Harbor though since he went back after Pearl Harbor.

Oh yeah, I guess they were at war already so he missed that one.

 

[matticus]

I was sort of ok with WV so I'm ok with that. FWS though is just....

Looking back, both finale's featured big, new costume reveals. New Loki costume?

 

[loki2371]

Who knows, maybe he did all of those things, but it would have been in a separate, variant branch in time that was erased once he put the stone back. Remember, in the Endgame reality the past is the past and all those things happened and couldn't be erased. Tony used the gauntlet to bring everyone back, but that didn't change the fact that they had been dusted by Thanos and lost 5 years.

Bruce brought everyone back. Tony wiped out Thanos and his army & followers.

I don't believe it was ever said it wasn't possible to go back to the moment before Thanos snapped his fingers. The deal Tony made in order to help them figure out time travel was not change what happened. In those 5 years he married Pepper and had his daughter. He made Bruce promise nothing would change in the past 5 years and he/they would bring back everyone in the here and now, 5 years later at that exact moment in time. If they reverted back to the moment Thanos snapped his fingers, his daughter would've never been born or existed. Or at least that version of his daughter.

This is why time travel sucks. It creates way more problems and contradictions than it ever fixes.

 

[e30ernest]

Bruce brought everyone back. Tony wiped out Thanos and his army & followers.

I don't believe it was ever said it wasn't possible to go back to the moment before Thanos snapped his fingers. The deal Tony made in order to help them figure out time travel was not change what happened. In those 5 years he married Pepper and had his daughter. He made Bruce promise nothing would change in the past 5 years and he/they would bring back everyone in the here and now, 5 years later at that exact moment in time. If they reverted back to the moment Thanos snapped his fingers, his daughter would've never been born or existed. Or at least that version of his daughter.

This is why time travel sucks. It creates way more problems and contradictions than it ever fixes.

From what I understood in MCU time travel rules, they cannot travel back to before the snap to stop the snap because they cannot change what already happened. It had nothing to do with Tony's deal.

Basically when they travel back to the past, it now becomes their present and the future they came from becomes their past. My feeble understanding of this is:

- I travel to yesterday.
- I arrive to "yesterday". At this point, my point of origin (tomorrow) is now actually in my past.
- If I change things today, it does not affect my tomorrow because that is another tomorrow.
- I can travel back again to my tomorrow by actually moving backwards further.

Another way of explaining it is cause and effect:

Cause: I traveled back in time from Tomorrow
Effect: I am now in Yesterday

Effect cannot precede the Cause, so therefore, my "time from Tomorrow" is now in the past.

If that's how it is, I think it's pretty clever since it avoids any paradoxes from happening.

 

[The Buffinator]

Bruce brought everyone back. Tony wiped out Thanos and his army & followers.

I don't believe it was ever said it wasn't possible to go back to the moment before Thanos snapped his fingers. The deal Tony made in order to help them figure out time travel was not change what happened. In those 5 years he married Pepper and had his daughter. He made Bruce promise nothing would change in the past 5 years and he/they would bring back everyone in the here and now, 5 years later at that exact moment in time. If they reverted back to the moment Thanos snapped his fingers, his daughter would've never been born or existed. Or at least that version of his daughter.

This is why time travel sucks. It creates way more problems and contradictions than it ever fixes.

Yes my bad, I should have said Bruce but my point is still valid. And yes, they could have reverted back to the moment before Thanos snapped his fingers, but the events in those 5 years would still exist in Bruce's past (or whoever is wielding the gauntlet). Actually, based on how Thanos turned back time to "undestroy" Vision & the mind stone (the effect was focused/localized), the scope of who remembers or doesn't remember the past may be entirely up to the gauntlet user.

From what I understood in MCU time travel rules, they cannot travel back to before the snap to stop the snap because they cannot change what already happened. It had nothing to do with Tony's deal.

Basically when they travel back to the past, it now becomes their present and the future they came from becomes their past. My feeble understanding of this is:

- I travel to yesterday.
- I arrive to "yesterday". At this point, my point of origin (tomorrow) is now actually in my past.
- If I change things today, it does not affect my tomorrow because that is another tomorrow.
- I can travel back again to my tomorrow by actually moving backwards further.

Another way of explaining it is cause and effect:

Cause: I traveled back in time from Tomorrow
Effect: I am now in Yesterday

Effect cannot precede the Cause, so therefore, my "time from Tomorrow" is now in the past.

If that's how it is, I think it's pretty clever since it avoids any paradoxes from happening.

Yes, it is. Also, since they only "borrowed" the stones and returned them, what they did cannot be undone because the stones are still destroyed in their reality.........Unless, of course, someone makes his or her own quantum tunnel and time-space GPS device and travels back and gets all the stones again (or at the very least the time stone). But I'm sure Bruce & Steve made the remaining Avengers pinky swear not to do anymore time traveling, so they should be good for a while.

BTW, The Ancient One said "The infinity stones CREATE the flow of time". Is their non-existence now a problem? My head hurts...

 

[darth dennis]

Not really a political choice to stop the murder of an unarmed man. He could have stopped all of those things but all of those interventions would have had unforeseen consequences that could have been worse, so I guess that's the logic behind him doing nothing. But what a burden.

Yeah, check out the book 11/22/63 for a perspective on the implications of stopping the Kennedy assassination. Not the mini-series, the book. The mini-series crapped the bed on the book, IMO, although the book's ending (like so many of King's) seemed to meander and go places it really didn't need to go. Anyway, back on topic

 

[e30ernest]

Yes my bad, I should have said Bruce but my point is still valid. And yes, they could have reverted back to the moment before Thanos snapped his fingers, but the events in those 5 years would still exist in Bruce's past (or whoever is wielding the gauntlet). Actually, based on how Thanos turned back time to "undestroy" Vision & the mind stone (the effect was focused/localized), the scope of who remembers or doesn't remember the past may be entirely up to the gauntlet user.

Yes, it is. Also, since they only "borrowed" the stones and returned them, what they did cannot be undone because the stones are still destroyed in their reality.........Unless, of course, someone makes his or her own quantum tunnel and time-space GPS device and travels back and gets all the stones again (or at the very least the time stone). But I'm sure Bruce & Steve made the remaining Avengers pinky swear not to do anymore time traveling, so they should be good for a while.

BTW, The Ancient One said "The infinity stones CREATE the flow of time". Is their non-existence now a problem? My head hurts...

They still exist in the MCU's present time. Thanos only reduced them to atoms, but in theory their matter is still present in the universe.

 

[Sassafras]

Looking back, both finale's featured big, new costume reveals. New Loki costume?

Hopefully done better than FWS final reveals; Bucky's costume is dull and someone in the editing room decided that the Falcon costume reveal would be a murky blip.

I mean, there are tropes you expect. The gleaming reveal of the first IM armor, Cap's first real uniform and shield, Captain Marvel, WS standing menacingly in the street, Vision, Thanos, SW....

Usually u get a moment, or more, that lets you know the character has arrived.

Instead the new Cap just sort of shows up zzzzzz. Flies across the screen in the dark and that's that zzzzz. I mean, for all we knew when Falcon opened the box is he got a snack assortment from Wakanda.

At least Loki and WV understand MOMENTS, editing/camera-wise.