Muhammad Ali vs Bruce Lee

[fosing]

but since this is in the movie section...

the outcome of this bout depends on who's directing this movie.


and Ben Afflec as Bruce Lee.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

Muhammad Ali. Simply becouse of the fact that he was tested.

Bruce Lee legend is vastly exaggerated. I have a lot of respect for the man, and his apporach to fighting (he ignored the "bull****" of martial arts and tried to include practical elements of many styles) is actually considered the basis of modern MMA in many ways, but they man was simply a movie star, not a true and tested fighter.

His legend was build mostly on movie acrobatics, not on actuall combat. He was a great martial arts trainer and thinker, but there is nothing to suggest he was the actuall ***-kicking master that everyone is viewing him as, other than rumours, myths and wishfull thinking. All there is are the few urban legend rumours of his alleged fights, none of which are poperly documented. And even if they were all true, they wouldn't even begin to approach the level of credibility Ali won in the ring. That man was tested through and through.

 

[Lejuan]

Hard to believe that anyway who has seriously studied/trained in a martial art, or its traditions and politics, could seriously claim Lee was "simply a movie star". You don't get to the top of the pile as a teacher by everyone just taking your word for it.

 

[Frank]

Ali was a proven boxer. He never fought a martial artist as far as i know, so both are kind of unknown quantities here. If Lee really was really disappointing as a fighter, how could any of his ideas taken hold in the martial arts community?

As it turns out, Bruce wanted to fight Ali too!

[ame]https://youtu.be/LTjdNuC1rlc[/ame]

 

[TheProcrastinator]

I have nothing but respect for Lee, in fact watching his movies as a kid, was the single biggest push for me to train in martial arts myself (I am sure its a common scenario with many amateur fighters). But I cannot repeat that in every sentence of a post, when I try to discredit some of the ridiculous reverence that has grown around this man.

Lejuan - First of all I allready wrote that he was a great martial arts teacher, and that some of his approach is respected even today. But just becouse You're a good trainer doesn't mean You're an exceptional fighter. All I meant is that most of the legend of Lee is based on his performances in anitquated movie fight scenes, rather than on his actuall fighting record (which practically doesn't exist). Thats all there is to it.

Secondly - what do You mean by saying "top of the pile as a teacher"? Couse that right there sounds like an exaggeration based on Lee's legend. He had good ideas, there is lot in Jeet Kune Do, that I personally find brilliant, but he wasn't a promiment martial arts teacher before his movie career. It was only when his Enter the Dragon era exploded, that people who never before tasted martial arts, were inspired by him and started to view him, as this exotic *** kicker. He then became a "master" for many, but that was mainly fuelled by his movies.

I am not sying Lee was dissapointing as a fighter, couse I have no way of knowing that for sure. I am saying that there is nothing concrete to suggest that in acutall ring-power he was above the rest. Certainly nothing approaching the ridiculous, hero of myth levels, that many hold him in.

Muhammad Ali on the other hand was tempered in flames. Tested against some of the harders, baddest Alpha-males on planet, people who could give a man traumatic brain injury with just one punch.

 

[Lejuan]

I'm not talking about the popular legend - I'm talking about how reputation is built and maintained in martial arts circles. Lee would've been challenged, a lot, and by some handy opponents. It might not be as visible as a competitive title bout, but it's apparent from documentary footage alone how in control of his body Lee was. You don't get to display that much skill and focus without being able to apply it in combat.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

I'm talking about how reputation is built and maintained in martial arts circles.

I hate to break it to You, but reputation in Martial Arts circles usually doesn't mean **** unless its provided by an actuall combat record. People who are outside of the world of martial arts don't even realise how unbelievably full-of-**** that world is. Its filled to the brim with bull****ters, people claiming that their school is the best, that their system is the best, that their wins record is the most impressive, that their **** is the longest one out there. And the level of idol-worshipping in martial arts is staggering. I would go as far as saying that no other form of sport on the planet, deals with so much false idol worshipping, as martial arts. It's a common theme reocurring in dojos and training halls around the world: pupils are kept in an isolated fighting world presented to them by their trainers, with absolutely no one to practically challenge their convitions. Thats exactly the reason why MMA is so popular today. Becouse its a testing ground for weeding out all the bull****. If there is one thing MMA has proven is that anyone who claims to be good, but cannot back it up with a proven record is probably a bull****er. I am not saying Lee was a bull****ter, simply becouse Lee never really claimed vocally to be above anyone else.. But in the times of Lee's activity "reputation as a trainer" didn't mean jack ****. If You were a martial arts student back in the 70's, You pretty much believed everything Your teacher told You, simply becouse there was no way of knowing better.

I appologize for the liberal use of the word bull****, but thats a very common theme in the MA world.

Lee would've been challenged, a lot, and by some handy opponents.

Oh he certainly was. Many times in fact. And guess what? Most of the times ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happened. I am sorry but the belief that fighting school teachers back then, kept up their reputation by taking part in regular bouts with other masters, that approached anything like a real fight, is silly. Many people loud-mouthed Lee and challenged him, and most of the time nothing happend. There are supposedly eye witness accounts of two back-alley fights, where Lee was challenged by some other master, becouse of his reputation. But we don't really know anything concrete about those shady fights, and in fact many of the eye witnesses who reported one of the stories, are not even sure Lee won that day. And You know what? I can grant him the possibility that he massacred those dudes back then. Who knows? But that would still be nothing next to Ali's record. Defeating some silly "dojo master" in an unlicensed slap-fest, can't be compared to multiple wins agains some the most skilled and brutally powerull boxers in history.

Something to break the tension:

 

[Lejuan]

I hate to break it to You, but reputation in Martial Arts usually doesn't mean **** unless its provided by an actuall combat record.

Usually maybe. Not in Lee's case though. Take what you will from his own writing, the writing of others about him, the documentary footage of him and the lineage of grandmasters from Yip Man down from which he also descends... but, based on my own experience in the martial arts, I take from all that a guy who could beat Ali.

 

[shells075]

The only way to become a real legend is die young. Bruce Lee, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe. As soon as you've lived too long and got fat and unattractive your legendry status fades.

Look at Elvis if he had died 10 years earlier before he put on all the weight he would be an even bigger legend, same for Michael Jackson. Maybe 20 years for Jackson though.

 

[Lejuan]

It'd sure take a lot of peanut butter banana and bacon sandwiches before Lee got fat

 

[surfin4]

Ali was a proven boxer. He never fought a martial artist as far as i know, so both are kind of unknown quantities here. If Lee really was really disappointing as a fighter, how could any of his ideas taken hold in the martial arts community?

As it turns out, Bruce wanted to fight Ali too!

https://youtu.be/LTjdNuC1rlc

are you kidding me he fought antonio inoki, the godfather of modern mma [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZY9cQsOSMmma.....horrible[/ame] match but ....

 

[Voorhees27]

Ali would smash that overrated little guy.

 

[Frank]

are you kidding me he fought antonio inoki, the godfather of modern mma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZY9cQsOSMmma.....horrible match but ....

Very interesting match! Kudos to you for bring it up. If they hadn't placed so many restrictions on Inoki, I'm pretty sure Ali would have more than swollen legs to show for it, lol.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/nov/11/the-forgotten-story-of-ali-inoki
"in the days leading up to the fight the camps of Ali and Inoki began to renegotiate the rules. All of a sudden, a list of restrictions was imposed on Inoki. He would not be allowed to throw Ali, or tackle him, and could not land any kicks unless he had one knee in contact with the mat."

Horrible fight, but we did get to see Ali's nonexistent ground game.

 

[Invictus Sol]

No offense, Frank, but your entire argument seems to rely on your belief that Ali cannot land a punch on Lee. Am I reading that right? It's like you just won't acknowledge that if Lee's hit, he's done.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

This was supposed to be a fixed, make-belief "fight" with a set of ridiculous rules (muzzling and handicaping the moves of both men) between two completely incompatible fighting styles. Both camps did stupid things here. Inoki suddenly decided to fight for real (which wasn't what Ali was prepearing himself for), so the other camp tried franticaly to change the rules.

Also Ali had to wear boxing gloves. Boxing gloves...in a fight against a wrestler. The whole thing was a ridiculous affair.

 

[wofford29]

Very interesting match! Kudos to you for bring it up. If they hadn't placed so many restrictions on Inoki, I'm pretty sure Ali would have more than swollen legs to show for it, lol.



Horrible fight, but we did get to see Ali's nonexistent ground game.

Ali didn't even know it was a real fight until a few days before they fought. He thought it was going to be a staged match, like wrestling. Even still, you can see as a man at the end of his career he was strong enough to avoid or withstand takedowns from someone his own size. You can also see the trouble someone his own size had reaching him. Like I said earlier, Bruce would never get close enough to be effective.

 

[Frank]

No offense, Frank, but your entire argument seems to rely on your belief that Ali cannot land a punch on Lee. Am I reading that right? It's like you just won't acknowledge that if Lee's hit, he's done.

Not necessarily, he very well might be able to get in some good hits but Lee never came off as a glass jaw. Could be wrong of course!

No, my main issue is just how rigid boxing is compared to what Lee was pioneering. Another thing is how the origins of their respective styles differ. Boxing as it is, derives from prizefighting. Martial Arts was essentially developed as a way for monks to defend their lives and property.

As for assuming size and power would do the trick, I just don't buy it for someone like Lee.

Ali didn't even know it was a real fight until a few days before they fought. He thought it was going to be a staged match, like wrestling. Even still, you can see as a man at the end of his career he was strong enough to avoid or withstand takedowns from someone his own size. You can also see the trouble someone his own size had reaching him. Like I said earlier, Bruce would never get close enough to be effective.

First off, "boo" on both camps for trying to pull a "worked fight".

Second, he was taken down in the sixth round, took an elbow to the face and wasn't going to get out of it until the ref stepped in.

Third, if this guy had been allowed to tackle him or kick standing up, it wouldn't have looked nearly as desperate.

 

[wofford29]

Not necessarily, he very well might be able to get in some good hits but Lee never came off as a glass jaw. Could be wrong of course!

No, my main issue is just how rigid boxing is compared to what Lee was pioneering. Another thing is how the origins of their respective styles differ. Boxing as it is, derives from prizefighting. Martial Arts was essentially developed as a way for monks to defend their lives and property.

As for assuming size and power would do the trick, I just don't buy it for someone like Lee.



First off, "boo" on both camps for trying to pull a "worked fight".

Second, he was taken down in the sixth round, took an elbow to the face and wasn't going to get out of it until the ref stepped in.

Third, if this guy had been allowed to tackle him or kick standing up, it wouldn't have looked nearly as desperate.

This guy was also Ali's size.

 

[Frank]

This guy was also Ali's size.

If you want to dismiss Lee because he's smaller, go ahead. Classic hubris though!

 

[Invictus Sol]

Not necessarily, he very well might be able to get in some good hits but Lee never came off as a glass jaw. Could be wrong of course!

No, my main issue is just how rigid boxing is compared to what Lee was pioneering. Another thing is how the origins of their respective styles differ. Boxing as it is, derives from prizefighting. Martial Arts was essentially developed as a way for monks to defend their lives and property.

As for assuming size and power would do the trick, I just don't buy it for someone like Lee...

OK, yep, I get what you're saying. No doubt Lee would be formiddable and has a larger bag of tricks, for sure. I definitely don't think he'd have a glass jaw, but I'm guessing Ali's punch strength would be overwhelming on Lee's frame. I just don't think any 135 pd frame could physically withstand more than one or two direct hits with that much power behind it, regardless of conditioning. The other advantage I'd give Ali is the 'killer instinct' that he'd have from being in multiple title fights throughout his career. We'll have to agree to disagree but this has been a fun bit of speculation.