NFL Thread

[Grenouille]

I can certainly understand your optimism (considering you're a Pats fan). However, stats are stats. This is no gimmie for the Patriots. There is one formula that works against them. That is to rattle Brady and then keep him off the field. The Ravens have the defense that can do this and a run game that can keep Brady on the bench.

Lest no one forget the Packers fans all had the similar attitude going into the Giants game. Look what happened there. The Kings of the NFL got simply embrassed.

That said I don't think Brady lets his team get as complacent as I feel the Packers were going into their game.

I agree that pressure on Brady is how the Ravens can win this game. Pressure up the middle is what seems to work best. From what I've seen of the Ravens they come more from the edges. The Giants probably have the best coming up the middle and results can could be seen from their regular season meeting with the Pats or SB42. If the offensive line gives him time in this one though, I wonder what the Ravens will do to combat the TEs. Most teams have doubled one and that has lead to the other having a big day.

Keeping Ray Rice in check will be huge, but it can be done. In last season's meeting they held him to 3.1 a carry on 28 touches.

The Packers seemed to suffer from being totally out of synch with so many drops. I don't know how much resting the starters week 17 may have played a role, but they certainly seemed rusty.

 

[karamazov80]

But you can't guarantee that. If you told me they'd draft a guy like as mediocre in total package as Orton, I'd say "why bother?" There's no point in fiddling around with mediocrity. With Tebow I can at least say that he's got all of the intangibles needed for greatness, just need to improve a few aspects of his passing game and he'd be set.

How do you take guys like Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler and turn them into greatness? You can't.

Unfortunately, those aspects of his passing game are critically important to him being a potentially great QB, and if he hasn't developed those skills by now, I really can't see him developing them in the future. Tebow was the same QB in college that he is now, and won the same way, difference being that he had an awesome SEC defense behind him. I think you're right about Cutler, by the way. He doesn't possess the drive to be a great QB though he may have the natural skill at passing to be great. But just like Tebow, you need both to win. Cutler is gonna win games on his skill alone. Tebow is gonna win games on heart, will, and athleticism alone. But neither is gonna get it done in those key moments that matter most consistently without both in the way your Bradys and Mannings do. Unless they've got a team around them to pick up the burden a la the Ravens or 49ers this year.

 

[ProgMatinee]

We've already seen that despite Tebow's lack of passing skills he has won a significant percentage of his games. We've seen he can make accurate passes. Its not out of the realm of possibilities that actually having a full training camp as the team's starter would dramatically improve that aspect.

He can improve, and he will need to, but it would be a joke to say the rest of the team might as well stand pat with mediocrity because its just a matter of them drafting the next Joe Montana or John Elway.

 

[Nuka Cola Kidd]

I love when people say Tebow won those games. Like it's not a team thing, or they forget the fact that the kicker scored the winning points on, what, half of them?

 

[ProgMatinee]

I love when people say Tebow won those games. Like it's not a team thing, or the fact that the kicker scored the winning points on, what, half of them?

That same team would have been 2-8 instead of 8-2 with Orton in the games, I'm sure of it. No way in the world they beat Miami, NYJ, Oakland, KC, SD or Chicago with Orton.

 

[Grenouille]

One of the major mechanics he needs to improve on is the throwing motion. That long wind up just takes too long. As a Gator fan it drove me nuts, but he always had a great line giving it plenty of time. In the NFL I don't know how long he can survive without getting rid of the ball faster.

 

[karamazov80]

All that you say is possible of course. But. . .

We've seen he can make accurate passes.

I suppose. Every QB throws some accurate passes. But Tebow is, out of 33 QBs listed on the NFL's stat chart, 33rd in terms of completion percentage at 46.5%. Next lowest is Blaine Gabbert at 50.8%, which is significantly higher. That's just not a stat I would personally use as evidence of Tebow's effectiveness

 

[ProgMatinee]

The percentage is sorta skewed in that Tebow takes a lot deeper shots than any other QB in the league. Those are naturally harder to complete. He doesn't have a tight end and they never throw screen passes to the RBs. I'm not saying he hasn't missed badly on certain passes, but the % doesn't tell the whole story.

I'm not saying Tebow is the best QB in the league. What I am saying is that until the Broncos dramatically improve the rest of the roster just throwing an average "typical" QB into the game isn't going to take the team from 8-8 to 10-6 or 12-4, because it took going FROM an average QB to Tebow to go from 1-4 to 7-4 in the first place. You remove Tebow from the equation you are back to square 1 and 4-12 team like 2010.

 

[karamazov80]

NFL doesn't give us enough information to figure all of that out (we would need yards per pass attempt), but we can infer a lot of it from the average per completion, which is 6.4 yards (26th in the league). If he's attempting long passes and missing them, and the only completions he's making are shorter than the average completions of most other QBs despite his not throwing screens, and his completion percentage is lower than everyone else, then the evidence is still not looking good IMO.

He's just not an accurate passer. Obviously, he has other strengths.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Your stat doesn't make sense because his yard per attempt is 6.38. Your analysis is subsequently flawed by the missinformaiton.

I don't know where he ranks overall but he has 126 completions in regular season. 1729 yards. Thats 13.7 yrds per completion.

By comparison Drew Brees had 5,476 and 468 completions = 11.7 per.

 

[karamazov80]

Your stat doesn't make sense because his yard per attempt is 6.38.

I don't follow. On NFL.com, it says Tebow's average completion is for 6.4 yards, which is what I posted.

 

[karamazov80]

I don't know where he ranks overall but he has 126 completions in regular season. 1729 yards. Thats 13.7 yrds per completion.

By comparison Drew Brees had 5,476 and 468 completions = 11.7 per.

My bad. I misinterpreted that statistic. Point taken, then.

 

[ProgMatinee]

This is a major part of his game and thats the part that ended up burning Pittsburgh.

If a team sells out and attempts to stop the run then he takes bigger chances on the single coverages deep. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

His biggest difficulties are with teams that play a straight up defense and don't overplay the run.

I think where the Denver coaching staff can learn is when to recognize that they are playing them straight and revert back to allowing Tebow's and the Rbs legs to get the job done.

This requires not following behind early in games, which leads us to the draft and needing better defenders.

Once the Broncos allowed NE to score on the first possession so easily it was game over.

So I'm not saying Tebow himself is going to develope into a passer who will throw for 25 TDs in a season, but his current style of play (mixed with the natural maturation of any NFL player year to year) can be used effectively to win games.

 

[BadMoon]

This is a major part of his game and thats the part that ended up burning Pittsburgh.

If a team sells out and attempts to stop the run then he takes bigger chances on the single coverages deep. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

His biggest difficulties are with teams that play a straight up defense and don't overplay the run.

I think where the Denver coaching staff can learn is when to recognize that they are playing them straight and revert back to allowing Tebow's and the Rbs legs to get the job done.

This requires not following behind early in games, which leads us to the draft and needing better defenders.

Once the Broncos allowed NE to score on the first possession so easily it was game over.

So I'm not saying Tebow himself is going to develope into a passer who will throw for 25 TDs in a season, but his current style of play (mixed with the natural maturation of any NFL player year to year) can be used effectively to win games.

You really have gone and drunk through the fridge full of kooliade.

The games he was successful at I honestly believe were due to the fact those teams simply weren't used to playing a QB that was that bad (scheme and all). One could argue that Denver could have played the same scheme with their running back and still won those games. Simply off of cunfusing other teams on some wacko scheme.

All that said, I honestly believe you will see next year. There is plently of tape out there. Tebow is a one trick Bronco.

 

[ProgMatinee]

All that said, I honestly believe you will see next year. There is plently of tape out there. Tebow is a one trick Bronco.

I think its fair to give him 2012 and see if that proves true or not. There is a lot of tape on Manning and Brady, they make their adjustments too.

If Tebow improves and adjusts great, if not, then the team is simply back to where it was a year ago. After being out of the playoffs for 5 years I think they have little to lose.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

The percentage is sorta skewed in that Tebow takes a lot deeper shots than any other QB in the league. Those are naturally harder to complete. He doesn't have a tight end and they never throw screen passes to the RBs. I'm not saying he hasn't missed badly on certain passes, but the % doesn't tell the whole story.

I'm not saying Tebow is the best QB in the league. What I am saying is that until the Broncos dramatically improve the rest of the roster just throwing an average "typical" QB into the game isn't going to take the team from 8-8 to 10-6 or 12-4, because it took going FROM an average QB to Tebow to go from 1-4 to 7-4 in the first place. You remove Tebow from the equation you are back to square 1 and 4-12 team like 2010.

he was 8 for 26 in the pats game and made NE's defense look like all stars

 

[ProgMatinee]

he was 8 for 26 in the pats game and made NE's defense look like all stars

And he made Pittsburgh's D look like a bunch of Chumps.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

And he made Pittsburgh's D look like a bunch of Chumps.

the steeler were missing half the team & the other half was playing hurt.

pittsburgh didn't set up for the option. the safeties were playing too deep anyway, by the time a bronco caught the ball, troy came into the screen atfer he was gone & running up the field

if tebow plays next year, everybody will know his gimmick

 

[BadMoon]

I think its fair to give him 2012 and see if that proves true or not. There is a lot of tape on Manning and Brady, they make their adjustments too.

If Tebow improves and adjusts great, if not, then the team is simply back to where it was a year ago. After being out of the playoffs for 5 years I think they have little to lose.

I agree that it's fair to say he is currently the starter. I also believe it's fair to say he will be in competition for that job once training camp starts.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Did it happen or did it not happen....