Noah

[thenammagazine]

Obviously you completely misunderstood what I wrote. No point in letting this conversation turn into another one of your "Loki possessed everyone in The Avengers" deals. So once again, believe whatever you want Nam.

I just fail to see how "predestined" = choice.

 

[Khev]

I just fail to see how "predestined" = choice.

Since the Bible mentions both predestination and free will I see it playing out like this:

God uses His foreknowledge of everyone who will accept Him as the basis for "electing" them before they are actually born. I really don't think it's necessary to get caught up in a debate about semantics since it seems we are in agreement that it does come down to individual choice. We can work out who was wrong or right on the minor details in the afterlife.

 

[thenammagazine]

Since the Bible mentions both predestination and free will I see it playing out like this:

God uses His foreknowledge of everyone who will accept Him as the basis for "electing" them before they are actually born. I really don't think it's necessary to get caught up in a debate about semantics since it seems we are in agreement that it does come down to individual choice. We can work out who was wrong or right on the minor details in the afterlife.

It's not "minor details" though. If your choices are predetermined for you, you're not the one making the choices and therefore, are following a pre-determined path. There's no free will. It's really as simple as that.

This is one of the major flaws with our perspective religion. As Maglor touched on yesterday, there's so much pre-programming involved in the fundamentalism in most branches of Christianity, that to most, it's black and white, not allowing for common sense and rational thought. God gave man science and if man uses science to disprove a belief, it is the belief that needs to be altered. Otherwise, we'd all still believe the world's flat with huge dragons waiting at the ends to gobble up those who tried to sail too far.

 

[BadMoon]

For the Giant believer people out there I would like to a recommend a book for you.

Noah Primeval

Don't say I never did anything nice.

This is not your Sunday School Noah's Ark.
Noah Primeval is a speculative retelling of the beloved story of Noah for a new generation. In an ancient world submerged in darkness, fallen angels rule as gods, and breed giants and monsters. Mankind is enslaved to evil. Noah, a tribal leader, has been prophesied to bring an end to the rule of these "gods" and save humanity from coming destruction. But Noah's wife and son are captives of these dark forces. To rise against this supernatural evil and rescue his family Noah will need an equally supernatural army. But why has God told him to build a huge box out of gopher wood?

 

[teemu]

It's not "minor details" though. If your choices are predetermined for you, you're not the one making the choices and therefore, are following a pre-determined path. There's no free will. It's really as simple as that.

This is one of the major flaws with our perspective religion. As Maglor touched on yesterday, there's so much pre-programming involved in the fundamentalism in most branches of Christianity, that to most, it's black and white, not allowing for common sense and rational thought. God gave man science and if man uses science to disprove a belief, it is the belief that needs to be altered. Otherwise, we'd all still believe the world's flat with huge dragons waiting at the ends to gobble up those who tried to sail too far.

That's right,Man does not have a spiritual Free Will that chooses God on his own...Ephesians 2:1-5 affirms that (among many other Scripture passages)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

People mix up "Free Will" with an actual Free Will that chooses God,which we do not have, because we are born spiritually dead.The only people to ever have TRUE Free Will was Adam and Eve,after Sin entered,man is born completely depraved,without God.

This somes up about the unbelieving...I Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[thenammagazine]

Then by your flawed rational, God is not a just god and creates people he condemns to death for no other reason than to do just that. Hardly the loving, just God the Bible makes him out to be. If you spent as much time reading the Bible as you do taking its verses out of context to fit your slanted perspective, you'd have a better understanding of it.

I agree that the Bible states all born in sin, but as far as Christianity is concerned, people have the right to choose Jesus as their sacrifice (his blood spilled so that their sins could be forgiven) and be saved. That is the choice given to all. It's not predetermined and I firmly believe it's not the only path to paradise.

 

[teemu]

Then by your flawed rational, God is not a just god and creates people he condemns to death. Hardly the loving, just God the Bible makes him out to be. If you spent as much time reading the Bible as you do taking its verses out of context to fit your slanted perspective, you'd have a better understanding of it.

Whatever dude .....the Scriptures presented are not taken out of context at all,you refuse to believe what is being said

who are WE to question the sovereignty of God??

and if you want to think God is really an unjust God... then read Romans 9:13-23 (this is the God I believe in as it is written)

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


God shows MERCY on whom he will show MERCY and saves ALL who he Elected

 

[Khev]

I agree that the Bible states all born in sin, but as far as Christianity is concerned, people have the right to choose Jesus as their sacrifice (his blood spilled so that their sins could be forgiven) and be saved. That is the choice given to all. It's not predetermined and I firmly believe it's not the only path to paradise.

Actually the notion that God sacrificed His Son to brutal torture and death when there were "other paths" to paradise is one that makes Him out to be a cruel God, not the notion that He elected those who would use their free will to choose Him in advance.

It also flies in the face of Jesus' prayer in the garden when he asked God to take this cup of suffering from Him if there actually *was* another way for men to be saved. But there wasn't and He therefore willingly allowed Himself to be crucified.

 

[thenammagazine]

Actually the notion that God sacrificed His Son to brutal torture and death when there were "other paths" to paradise is one that makes Him out to be a cruel God, not the notion that He elected those who would use their free will to choose Him in advance.

It also flies in the face of Jesus' prayer in the garden when he asked God to take this cup of suffering from Him if there actually *was* another way for men to be saved. But there wasn't and He therefore willingly allowed Himself to be crucified.

If Christ was the only path to heaven, then all those who died before him are condemned. Careful what you preach.

 

[teemu]

I agree that the Bible states all born in sin, but as far as Christianity is concerned, people have the right to choose Jesus as their sacrifice (his blood spilled so that their sins could be forgiven) and be saved. That is the choice given to all. It's not predetermined and I firmly believe it's not the only path to paradise.

Its not the only Path? There is only ONE WAY and that is through Christ Jesus

Jesus said "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

[thenammagazine]

Its not the only Path? There is only ONE WAY and that is through Christ Jesus

Jesus said "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

But you've already said, teemu, Christ is God. So the sacrifice is worthless as he never died. So using your rational, there's no need for Christ given he and God are one and the same.

 

[Khev]

If Christ was the only path to heaven, then all those who died before him are condemned.

Nope. The Bible is quite clear that "faith" saved those before Christ's incarnate appearance. Not faith in Christ's sacrifice, since that hadn't happened yet, but faith in God's promises up to that time. Abraham believed God, and it "was credited to him as righteousness." God's requirement of *what* must be believed is based on whatever revelation God has given to man at that time. Now that Jesus has come, died, and rose again, He is the universal and "narrow" path to salvation.

 

[teemu]

But you've already said, teemu, Christ is God. So the sacrifice is worthless as he never died. So using your rational, there's no need for Christ given he and God are one and the same.

No,because you DENY the Trinity of God (God the Father,God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit...God is a Triune Deity

Jesus was literal God in Flesh,while the Father was in Heaven...

which he gave his Son as the blood sacrifice for the believing

 

[thenammagazine]

Nope. The Bible is quite clear that "faith" saved those before Christ's incarnate appearance. Not faith in Christ's sacrifice, since that hadn't happened yet, but faith in God's promises up to that time. Abraham believed God, and it "was credited to him as righteousness." God's requirement of *what* must be believed is based on whatever revelation God has given to man at that time. Now that Jesus has come, died, and rose again, He is the universal and "narrow" path to salvation.

For Christians.

No,because you DENY the Trinity of God (God the Father,God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit...God is a Triune Deity

Jesus was literal God in Flesh,while the Father was in Heaven...

which he gave his Son as the blood sacrifice for the believing

If Jesus was the literal God in flesh, he was praying to himself? "Why hast I forsaken myself?" See, that doesn't make sense and is flawed on a very fundamental level. Christ was as much God as you are your father.

 

[teemu]

Nope. The Bible is quite clear that "faith" saved those before Christ's incarnate appearance. Not faith in Christ's sacrifice, since that hadn't happened yet, but faith in God's promises up to that time. Abraham believed God, and it "was credited to him as righteousness." God's requirement of *what* must be believed is based on whatever revelation God has given to man at that time. Now that Jesus has come, died, and rose again, He is the universal and "narrow" path to salvation.

Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

[Khev]

If Jesus was the literal God in flesh, he was praying to himself? "Why hast I forsaken myself?" See, that doesn't make sense and is flawed on a very fundamental level. Christ was as much God as you are your father.

Yes He prayed to Himself. Not only was He God in the flesh according to the Bible but He was also our model of perfect earthly behavior. As such He demonstrated how to pray.

 

[teemu]

For Christians.



If Jesus was the literal God in flesh, he was praying to himself? "Why hast I forsaken myself?" See, that doesn't make sense and is flawed on a very fundamental level. Christ was as much God as you are your father.

There are numerous passages that teach that God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit are distinct persons and yet each hold the attributes of deity. But the Bible also emphatically and unambiguously declares that there is only one God

Understanding the Trinity of God is not an easy thing...but the Bible teaches that God is a 3 partisan Triune God

 

[thenammagazine]

There are numerous passages that teach that God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit are distinct persons and yet each hold the attributes of deity. But the Bible also emphatically and unambiguously declares that there is only one God

Understanding the Trinity of God is not an easy thing...but the Bible teaches that God is a 3 partisan Triune God

You mistakenly take that to mean they're all the same person. The sentence that follows disproves your own belief. Understanding the "trinity" is easy if you look at it and take it at face value. But man is flawed and tends to deify what they cannot understand. Hence why children and adults pray to Jesus, which is also flawed.

 

[ExMem-LarjaThwei]

......................

This is your god

 

[thenammagazine]

......................

This is your god

He's not. And the boxoffice clearly proves that.