PT Changing How You View The OT

[Wor-Gar]

There's an explanation for all that. Lucas has said Obi-Wan was originally intended to play Qui-Gon's role, but be torn over whether to train Anakin. He eventually decided to split him into two characters, the believer and the skeptic.

I believe that, as it seems quite obvious. But I prefer Obi-Wan being torn as opposed to actually tearing that complicated character in two.

For me, personally, I think Lucas just tried to take the story too far back in the PT. For the most part, the key elements everyone wanted to see on the screen were revealed in ROTS. Had Lucas stuck to Ben's recollection, and it was he who discovered a 19 year old force-prodigy who was considered too old but Obi took it upon himself to train him anyway, it might have worked much better. No Ani, no Qui-Gon (sorry -- but the only reason people like him is because he fulfills what Alec gave us in SW). Anakin could still have been a slave, he could still fall in love with a beautiful politician who was becoming concerned about the Chancellor's growing power, he could still be angered that no one wants him in the Jedi council, etc.

 

[Atom Hues]

There's an explanation for all that. Lucas has said Obi-Wan was originally intended to play Qui-Gon's role, but be torn over whether to train Anakin. He eventually decided to split him into two characters, the believer and the skeptic.

Therein lies the problem, I've always felt.

I always thought Ben Kenobi shouldered a great burden for tutoring (and therefore being responsible for) a villain of galactic proportions, and his years in exile were penance for his errors. I always felt Old Ben had a wonderful melancholy about him, a lonely old man who was once great and respected, living away his remaining years in exile because of his one great mistake...

Afte the PT, Obi-Wan is kind of absolved of all responsibility. He trains Anakin because of a promise he made to his dying mentor, NOT because he actually believes in Anakin. When Anakin goes sour, Obi-Wan can even side with Mace and Yoda and all the other Jedi who felt Anakin was trouble, saying 'I told you so's' to Qui-Gon's ashes. Qui-Gon Jinn, long dead, is the sole architect of all the woe that befalls the Old Republic.

I feel that there would have been more poignancy if Obi-Wan had been the sole supporter of Anakin, and there, in the end, Anakin's fall to the Dark Side would have been a fabulous betrayal of Obi-wan's sole trust.

Also, I always thought that having two Jedi in PHANTOM MENACE was stucturally unsound. Qui-Gon has most of the narrative spotlight, and Obi-Wan, whom we all want to see more of because he's one of the only OT characters who shows up in Ep1, has nothing to do (narratively) until the Duel of the Fates.

If Obi-Wan had been the one making all the decisions (going to Tatooine, taking a chance on Anakin in the PodRace, trusting to the Force in light of more logical choices), then suddenly every bad thing Anakin does when he goes bad becomes Obi-Wan's fault.

What do we care if Qui-Gon's to blame for trusting Anakin? He's dead by film's end and has absolutely no narrative weight in the OT. If Obi-Wan's the Jedi making bad decisions, then there's a thread that runs through the WHOLE 6 films. Not only is Obi-Wan an important character in the PT, but in the OT, his training of Luke can be seen as his last attempt to correct a decades-old mistake that has had dire consequences for the galaxy.

Which is kinda how I thought of Kenobi all these years since EMPIRE, to be honest!

-Adam

 

[Wor-Gar]

Eloquently said, Adam... and I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Atom Hues]

Here's one way the PT has changed how i view the OT....

... the PT actually takes all the narrative 'oomph' out of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, arguably everyone's favorite SW film.

Since we now know who Yoda is, there's no mystery when Luke gets to Dagobah. In 1980, we all wondered when this little elf was finally gonna show Luke to the Great and Powerful YODA, and there's the great dramatic revelation that... it's been Yoda all this time! Can you imagine a kid discovering the SW films for the first time, in order, and getting to Part 5? "Mommy, why is Yoda being a complete tool and pulling Luke's leg?"

(Also, since Ep 3 has us believe that Yoda & Obi-Wan leave Luke, knowing that Luke is the Great White Hope of the Galaxy, why does Yoda need to have his little muppet arm twisted to train Luke? If Yoda's been waiting 21 years for this kid to show up and start getting 'churched up' in the Force, why does he resist? )

Since we all know that Luke and Leia are twins, the the whole "That boy was our last hope.... No, there is another." revelation kinda means nothing.

The Big One. Since we ALL know Vader is Luke's father, Vader's revelation to Luke surprises..... only Luke.

All the big moments from 1980 are no longer there, dramatically speaking, thanks to the PT.

Just a thought I'd always had.

-Adam

 

[Atom Hues]

Eloquently said, Adam... and I wholeheartedly agree.

Wor-Gar, asking me to talk about STAR WARS is a disastrous "can: open, worms: everywhere" social nightmare..... ;-) I will go on for DAYS.

The thing is, while all my friends decided to start hating STAR WARS after PHANTOM MENACE, I realized that if I couldn't make peace with the fact that any new STAR WARS couldn't live up to the original films, then the next 6 years (1999-2005) were going to be MISERABLE.

So, I figured out a way to enjoy the Prequels.

One way was, I used the very imagination that STAR WARS jump-started in 1977 to play THIS game: "OK, this new film wasn't exactly flooring me..... Why? What was it that didn't work? And what would I have done, if I'd had a say in things?"

I've had more fun cooking up my quick-fixes to STAR WARS prequels than you can imagine. The Really, Really Special Edition of the STAR WARS Prequels that I have playing on the big screen in my head is really cool, like, LORD OF THE RINGS cool.

See? I'm going on & on about it.....

 

[Captain Faramir]

I'm going to expand on that since I would have taken that one step further. Anakin should never have been the whiny little snerp that he is in Episodes II and III. Lucas should have taken him in a totally different direction that would have made the story a real tragedy, and not just a sad story.

First of all, the first film should have centered on one emotional conflict--Anakin being separated from his mother. That single event should have been the focal point of the entire film, not a sad little scene that lasts maybe 10 minutes. Combining that with Adam's suggestions, Obi-Wan should have been torn about whether to train him or not, and when he does, the separation should be terrible. That would give a powerful emotional setting for the next film.

Instead of some complaining rebel, Anakin should have become a totally different person. Dressed in flowing white and quiet, almost silent, he should have proven that he was the chosen one. Anakin should have shown incredible healing powers and demonstrated incredible benevolence, being famous throughout the galaxy for being a great vessel of salvation and wisdom--hence Palpatine's alarming interest in him. But he also a sad, reflective young man, the result of the past separation. When Shmi dies and he can't save her despite his famous gifts, it starts to eat at him--since he's still young, he loses control and, despite the nobility which had before defined him, he lashes out at the Sand People, enraged and confused that he can heal the afflicted but not raise the dead.

Combine this then with the innocent Anakin falling madly in love with Senator Amidala--he's supposed to be the model Jedi, but after the trauma of losing Shmi he unwittingly follows his passions, more because he misses his mother than anything else. Padme thus becomes a sort of mother to him, and he begins to carry doubts and anger. The galaxy still loves their hero, but he's not as pure as he once was.

In Episode III he should have been dressed with more flowing robes, but in black--symbolically mourning those who died in the Clone Wars, and in truth a compassionate symbol, not a dark one. The rest of the films carries out much like it is now, and he turns in a desperate attempt to save Padme. But in this case, it's Anakin who kills her, and in mad desperation tries to save her, but obviously cannot. The Great Dual happens, but when Obi-Wan takes Padme to Polis Massa, they find Anakin did succeed--not in saving Padme, but in saving the twins.


Wow, that's a lot of crazy ideas there. I should write a book.

But, when

 

[Darth Caedus]

One word changed my whole aspect of the OT, and that word is: "MIDICLORIANS"

 

[Captain Faramir]

Oh, and 3PO should have belonged to the Royal House of Naboo all along, and R2 should have been built be Anakin. It would make so much more sense! Why did he do it backwards? C-3PO is a protocol droid, of course the Padme would have one! And nothing would explain R2 better than the fact that he was built by Anakin himself--why else is he so quirky, so smart, and so utterly amazing? Oh Lucas, why . . .

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

One word changed my whole aspect of the OT, and that word is: "MIDICLORIANS"

Oh man, that was the worst. Changing the Force from a mystical, spiritual energy to bacteria.

 

[Atom Hues]

Oh, and 3PO should have belonged to the Royal House of Naboo all along, and R2 should have been built be Anakin. It would make so much more sense! Why did he do it backwards? C-3PO is a protocol droid, of course the Padme would have one! And nothing would explain R2 better than the fact that he was built by Anakin himself--why else is he so quirky, so smart, and so utterly amazing? Oh Lucas, why . . .

What's really interesting, the droids are only in the prequels because of that old promise that "the only common thread to all 9 films ("Six, sire!") 6! 6 films, is the droids.... If you look at the structure of the stories, the droids REALLY have nothing to do, other than be cameos from the OT. Unlike ANH, where the droids serve a narrative purpose.

And I think all of us kinda dislike the unlikely coincidence that Darth Vader built C-3PO....

Just in the sense of 'what if", I always wondered if Threepio HAD to be in the film, why not just make him the protocol droid for the Naboo Queen's crew of astromech droids? If Artoo needs Threepio in the OT to translate for him, because he's so chock-full of Swiss Army gadgets and doodads that there's no room for a little speaker that talks in English (LOL), then wouldn't a half-dozen astromech droids on a royal starship need at least ONE protocol droid to speak for them?

I realize that if Artoo & Threepio already know each other, before the film starts, it's not as cute as seeing them meet for the first time, but, hey...

-Adam

 

[The Chaver]

Hey guys, I can't think of any dedicated threads to this topic. I'm going through ANH right now to get some screen shots, and I'm finding more and more ways that the storyline, acting, etc. of the PT has impacted, positively, my viewing experience now with the OT. For example, there's a look on Alec Guiness' face when he first comes upon Vader, that before the PT, would just look like, "there you are", but knowing that in the saga, Obi-Wan never saw what become of his brother, I read more in the look on Obi-Wan's face and it really matches well to be an expression of "Oh Anakin, what has become of you?" I love how little things like that make the OT that much more enjoyable now. So share your POVs and maybe we'll all pick up on some things we haven't noticed yet.

I know exactly what you mean.I noticed that same scene and others were quite different after seeing the new trilogy.Like the part when Obi Wan is telling Luke about the Jedi purge and his father.You already new that Obi Wan wasn't telling Luke the whole truth,but then after seeing the new trilogy you realized that he was lying in a very big way,in that I mean he kills Luke's father.There was no mention at least to my knowledge in the movies of Obi Wan being the one who kills Anakin in the way that he did.

 

[Atom Hues]

Oh man, that was the worst. Changing the Force from a mystical, spiritual energy to bacteria.

I remember hearing Qui-Gon tell Little Orphan Ani about the midichlorians or micro-floridians or whatever, and having a very weird Dorothy Gale moment... I felt like Toto had just pulled the curtain aside, and the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz was instantly reduced to a crummy old geezer who reeked of gin....

 

[Wor-Gar]

One thing I was looking forward to after TPM was Anakin returning to "free the slaves".

Of course, that predicted vision never happened.

Why, oh why? For three years, I envisioned a brilliant opening to Episode 2: Anakin returns home to free the slaves -- the kind of heroic move that gets you on the map -- but in the process, he loses his mother. A tragic, defining moment -- which could have been much more cinematic than a Tusken hut (big rescue as the masses rise up against their masters), much more dramatic by having Anakin have to make a tough choice at a key moment (to get to Shmi in time, he'd have to sacrifice many lives), and much more resonant as being a factor in his undoing (he could blame himself and his actions as opposed to blaming the Tuskn Raiders). However, because of his actions, now Anakin's the people's hero -- a great irony as one day he will be their most feared enemy, and head enforcer of the much more cruel integalactic slavery of the Empire.

Instead, Episode 2 started with a car bomb... then a lot of talking.

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

Yeah, I expected Anakin freeing the slaves would be a major plot point after seeeing TPM. I don't know why Lucas made a special point of having Anakin mention that and then have it go absolutely nowhere.

 

[pixletwin]

One thing I was looking forward to after TPM was Anakin returning to "free the slaves".

Of course, that predicted vision never happened....

Um.... Did you never watch ROTJ all the way through?

 

[Atom Hues]

Hey guys, I can't think of any dedicated threads to this topic. I'm going through ANH right now to get some screen shots, and I'm finding more and more ways that the storyline, acting, etc. of the PT has impacted, positively, my viewing experience now with the OT. For example, there's a look on Alec Guiness' face when he first comes upon Vader, that before the PT, would just look like, "there you are", but knowing that in the saga, Obi-Wan never saw what become of his brother, I read more in the look on Obi-Wan's face and it really matches well to be an expression of "Oh Anakin, what has become of you?" I love how little things like that make the OT that much more enjoyable now. So share your POVs and maybe we'll all pick up on some things we haven't noticed yet.

I actually love the new context that the final scenes in RETURN OF THE JEDI now have.... When Luke uses the Dark Side to defeat Vader, and then looks from Vader's cybernetic stump of a wrist to his own mechanical hand, and then makes the choice that Anakin could not, the decision to turn back from the Dark Side at the moment of truth..... I love how much richer that moment is NOW. Knowing that Luke faced the same temptation as his father, and was able to succeed where Anakin could not.... that just makes Luke so much more of a hero to me.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Um.... Did you never watch ROTJ all the way through?

Yeah, but I assumed since he said he came back (to Tatooine) to free all the slaves, and eyed his mother, that that was a plant for a great moment of adventure and loss during Anakin's becoming a Jedi in the PT -- I had envisioned it as a way to build Anakin up as well as pain him with the loss of the only "slave" he could not save.

I suppose you can place it as a vision for the final chapter... but that doesn't make AOTC any better, and it definitely needed the dramatic help.

 

[pixletwin]

I suppose you can place it as a vision for the final chapter... but that doesn't make AOTC any better, and it definitely needed the dramatic help.

True... Really Ep 1 should have been a combination of 1 & 2. Episode 2 should have been a combination of 2 & 3. And Episode 3 should have been a combination of 3 & Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.

 

[Atom Hues]

Yeah, I expected Anakin freeing the slaves would be a major plot point after seeeing TPM. I don't know why Lucas made a special point of having Anakin mention that and then have it go absolutely nowhere.

I always liked (insert heavy sarcasm emoticon) what that said about the Jedi Knights..... they get back to Naboo, Coruscant, home, whatever, after the events of Episode One, knowing full well that human/sentient slavery is being practiced on a world that they have driving directions to and........nothing. Obi-Wan doesn't return to stamp out slavery. The council doesn't send some of their best to wipe out injustice. Padme doesn't get her curlers in a bunch and try to get the Senate to do anything. They all kinda just.... ignore it.

I also like how Anakin kinda just ignores that his mom's a slave for 10 years, and then has the mendacity to sound surprised when Watto says he sold Shmi...

The whole Jedi "Let's Ignore Human Bondage in the Outer Rim" is one of the ONLY things about the PT storyline I can never seem to manage a good rationalization for.....

-Adam

 

[Coorectghosting]

And I think all of us kinda dislike the unlikely coincidence that Darth Vader built C-3PO....

Yeah and Chewbacca meeting Yoda. I totally reject it.

It's Star Wars inbreeding.