Silrian
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Big Deano
Super Freak
Tell that to Blood, thats blasphemy Snake [emoji38]
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Angelo2113
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I thought the point of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was to "erase" Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. Maybe it's just the difference between the anime and the manga? From pictures I saw online, I know Toriyama changed the fight between Goku and Hit quite a bit with Goku
transforming into a Super Saiyan God rather than using the Kaio-ken.
I don't understand why you think that. Tamashii Nations plans on making this line last another 5 - 10 years. Within that time frame, they're surely going to release Nappa.
Big Deano
Super Freak
Yeah, that change makes the least amount of sense to me.
To me, ssjGod is only usable by doing the ritual. Thats why Goku and Vegeta figured out ssjBlue, so they could tap into its power when they wanted. Otherwise, whats the point in ssjBlue? ssjGod gives the user almost limitless energy and power with nothing but a time limit to it, ssjBlue strains the user and drains alot of stamina before they even get started. Kaioken seemed a much more logical way for Goku to win that fight.
misterW
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actually, i dont think ssjblue strains the user since the transformation is more about ki control as to something physical, what is straining is just the usage of kaioken in general. Regular ssj forms are straining unless mastered like ssj1
The entirety is just getting more ridiculous, which I both love & hate.. I understand that's Dragon Ball's "thing" and they adhere to it strictly, but they're just going to be getting stronger & stronger to the point where there really is no logical limit.* First they introduce SSGod, which is fine, an ability that transcends the others & puts them on Kai-Tier strength (although they were already stronger than most of the Kais anyway, but whatever). Now we have SSGSS, which technically is "level beyond God," then soon we'll see "level beyond God BEYOND God," etc. etc. Like come on already. I really don't care for any other transformations at this point. SS4 is still the coolest looking one.
Kinda how I feel about the Kais, too. Beerus was introduced as the absolute strongest, where even Shenron was a little bit scared, then they immediately reveal it's actually Whis who is the strongest. Then they reveal Beerus' brother might actually be on par with him, we don't know where Vados is at but I guarantee she's probably above them, and other Gods of Destruction that may actually be stronger than them. Then finally, the "God of all Gods" appears, who even Beerus is scared of, and who now claims is the ABSOLUTE STRONGEST. Pffffft. How long before that gets retconned. What's higher than a billion? Trillion. What's higher than trillion? quadrillion. What's higher than quadrillion? Brazillion. What's higher than that? Stay tuned & find out!
Like I said I still love it all, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize how absurd it can be.
*although I liked how they showed Goku finally suffering the repurcussions of putting all that strain on himself after the tournament.
Kinda how I feel about the Kais, too. Beerus was introduced as the absolute strongest, where even Shenron was a little bit scared, then they immediately reveal it's actually Whis who is the strongest. Then they reveal Beerus' brother might actually be on par with him, we don't know where Vados is at but I guarantee she's probably above them, and other Gods of Destruction that may actually be stronger than them. Then finally, the "God of all Gods" appears, who even Beerus is scared of, and who now claims is the ABSOLUTE STRONGEST. Pffffft. How long before that gets retconned. What's higher than a billion? Trillion. What's higher than trillion? quadrillion. What's higher than quadrillion? Brazillion. What's higher than that? Stay tuned & find out!
Like I said I still love it all, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize how absurd it can be.
*although I liked how they showed Goku finally suffering the repurcussions of putting all that strain on himself after the tournament.
Big Deano
Super Freak
It came out recently that the transformation into ssjBlue drains alot of stamina, and can only really be done once a day or so, that was the reason why Goku went ssjGod in the manga instead, but honestly that does open a whole other can of inconsistencies like I said above.
Big Deano
Super Freak
Remember, we all felt that way when Goku went ssj3, then we reacted that way with ssjGod (or pink as we called it), then blue aswell. Its just how dbz has always worked, and after a while the absurdity wears off and we begin to enjoy it for what it is again. Thats how I think of it anyway
Big Deano
Super Freak
lol. I have said it before; GT can go sit in the corner for all I care, but the ssj4 design was great. The fact that folks thought ssjGod would be a golden ssj4 goes a long way to say how much people liked the ssj4 design.
Caped Baldy
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Tut tut, FSLAR. Not playing nice with the GT kids gets you sent to the back of the classroom where you will write 'I will respect the views of others and Wesker's shades are blinding my judgement of SSJ4' 100 times until you learn your lesson. 
Anyway, something that has confused me since BoG was whatever happened with the concept of the original SSJ? In the manga he was only mentioned briefly and not shown. The anime added a filler visual of a golden ape, and later in BoG we are told of the original SSJG -- were they meant to be the same being or of a completely different legend?
I always believe it was a missed opportunity on Toriyama's part not doing an arc set thousands of years in the past that shed light on the very origin of the Saiyans and all the SSJ legend stuff. And a proper arc, not that **** with Bardock going back in time landing on a planet with purple things that sound like Kermit the Frog and named after rappers.
Anyway, something that has confused me since BoG was whatever happened with the concept of the original SSJ? In the manga he was only mentioned briefly and not shown. The anime added a filler visual of a golden ape, and later in BoG we are told of the original SSJG -- were they meant to be the same being or of a completely different legend?
I always believe it was a missed opportunity on Toriyama's part not doing an arc set thousands of years in the past that shed light on the very origin of the Saiyans and all the SSJ legend stuff. And a proper arc, not that **** with Bardock going back in time landing on a planet with purple things that sound like Kermit the Frog and named after rappers.
There's quite a few great designs in GT. Super 17, a few of the Dragons, and all forms of Baby.
The design was fantastic, but the colors were off...they remind of the bright neon colors we saw on the early 90's G.I. Joe figures! 
Should've gone with the yellow/golden fur and hair and I stand by that. At least it would've been consistent with the Super Saiyan forms prior to it.
I almost see SSJ4 as the "Primitive Saiyan" design and just as they were evolving from ape-to-man.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, there wasn't much thought put into the Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga and SSJ2. I almost feel Toriyama half-heartedly designed SSJ3 and there are some questionable features like the heavy, neanderthal-like brow. SSJ4 was a clever build-up, but the colors are 'off' and not consistent with the other forms and despite the primitive, ape-like hair and tail...the brow is gone and the eyebrows are back? Then we get onto Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan Blue) and it becomes a new mess there.
Super Saiyan has unfortunately gone all over the place.
Should've gone with the yellow/golden fur and hair and I stand by that. At least it would've been consistent with the Super Saiyan forms prior to it.
I almost see SSJ4 as the "Primitive Saiyan" design and just as they were evolving from ape-to-man.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, there wasn't much thought put into the Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga and SSJ2. I almost feel Toriyama half-heartedly designed SSJ3 and there are some questionable features like the heavy, neanderthal-like brow. SSJ4 was a clever build-up, but the colors are 'off' and not consistent with the other forms and despite the primitive, ape-like hair and tail...the brow is gone and the eyebrows are back? Then we get onto Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan Blue) and it becomes a new mess there.
Super Saiyan has unfortunately gone all over the place.
This highlights a bigger issue with Dragon Ball which is that the show needs to "grow up" and mature with its audience. It can't always be "whose stronger?" or "what's the next form?" because that's been a common structure and plot line for most of its existence. The show needs to get smarter than that...
The future Trunks arc with Black Goku is a new twist but how long does this go before we see a new form or it goes to training to defeat a new enemy?
Dragon Ball's audience has grown up, the creators need to recognize this and work on having the show grow up as well.
This is why I favor a reboot/retelling and involve some popular anime creators from other shows help "mature" the story a bit while also giving us a new take on everything.
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Angelo2113
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It really made no sense to me when I saw it.
Super Saiyan God was a great one-time transformation and should have been left at that. When I saw the manga photos of him transforming into it to fight Hit, I didn't get how it would have happened. Like you say, it really doesn't make anything special of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Toriyama bringing the Super Saiyan God transformation back only put up ANOTHER barrier between Goku and Vegeta.
I thought Goku's fight with Hit was really well done when he used the Kaio-ken. Yes it puts up another barrier between Goku and Vegeta but it's a great risk for Goku to even use the technique.
I thought Goku's fight with Hit was really well done when he used the Kaio-ken. Yes it puts up another barrier between Goku and Vegeta but it's a great risk for Goku to even use the technique.
That's why I really enjoyed the Universe 6 fights. It wasn't all about "Who's the strongest?" Most of the fights used different techniques to either counter or outsmart rather than simply overpowering the other. I'm hoping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the final transformation. Let Goku and Vegeta learn how to master it rather than "unlock" another transformation even further. (Super Saiyan 4 is still the "truest" form of a Super Saiyan to me.)
I'd have to watch it again but I thought Goku had the idea/question of "He's the strongest?!" and Whis had a really good explanation on why that character was the All-King.
I liked how they showed Goku's body breaking down, as well. It really showed what Goku will do for his passion of fighting.
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I agree to this. GT may not have been the best, well told series but a lot of the designs were very memorable.
Silrian
Super Freak
LMAO!
He basically admitted as much, more than once iirc reading interviews. There wasn't really meant to be anything past ssj, but, well 'something past ssj' is that one step that's truly impressive a second time. Especially because it was Goku's kid son. But with DBZ's success as well as the speed with which toriyama had to keep up things derailed. They used his Gogeta design in a movie before he could even use it himself, leading to him having to quickly create Vegito, and another way to fuse. I doubt ssj3 was much different. In the Buu saga stuff just became way too forced and it's noticeable in most aspects of it. Gohan was supposed to have truly surpassed Goku, but they wanted Goku as the main star so a completely other type of transformation - ultimate gohan - was rendered obsolete story-wise. The same goes for fusions, another type of transformation by which Toriyama I think tried to switch it up, but ultimately was rendered fairly obsolete due to the pressure that it should always be Goku saving the day. While the Buu saga had many great moments, it was an incoherent mess that basically started all the contrived and convulated stuff about power ups. Before Buu, it all made sense enough
DB
Goku learns MA
Goku learns ki attacks and to fly
DBZ
Goku learns kaio-ken in the afterlife
Goku becomes ssj
Where all other sayins fail to make it their own and can only simply 'bulk up', his son's dorment power transcends ssj in a natural form.
^That's a clear and logic evolution. Then the Buu saga should've just added goku and vegeta reaching ssj2, fusion and Gohan's mystic/ultimate transformation. But suddenly there was ssj3 literally out of nowhere, suddenly there's more ways to fuse then the original, requiring convoluted reasons to undo them again because ultimately Goku HAS to be the one, solo, to defeat kid buu (he didn't even need vegeta's help to do it, as he remarks before telling vegeta he's worn down and can't sustain ssj3 anymore – granted I don't know if that's just the english dub).
That said, sometimes odd designs can become iconic simply because they stand out and ssj3 and 4 could be seen as such. The main issue now is that those didn't matter much because the series was over. Who cared if DBZ ended with a ****ton of 'higher, higher, higher' etc? But with a new series, suddenly continuity does matter, and in that sense Toriyama's kinda just rolling with what the series has become: fan service without taking risks.
^So no, the show does not 'NEED' to grow up and that IS the issue: the producers simply want more of the same to sustain the brand, riding nostalgia etc. DBZ isn't a franchize that will take significant risks to evolve itself in a core sense anymore. At least, I don't see that happening and with DBS' tone, even if it does, I don't see it going in any cool direction. Toriyama said DBZ will remain the simple, easy to process content and apparently sees it (or is forced to present it as) such.
DBZ is over, literally. And with DBS, I think, so is its potential to increase the tone of dramatic action such as DBZ (even into moments of the Buu saga) did. There's honestly little practical sense left to criticize DBS at this point. We know what it is: a 'cartoon' among anime.
And if Trunks' saga proves me wrong even by a little bit: hey, I'd only be happy.
FSLAR
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Wesker's shades open me up to the madness of this forum as Pliss can atest, so no. You go to the back of the classroom and write 'I will respect the might of Wesker and GTFO this forum' 9001 times'.Tut tut, FSLAR. Not playing nice with the GT kids gets you sent to the back of the classroom where you will write 'I will respect the views of others and Wesker's shades are blinding my judgement of SSJ4' 100 times until you learn your lesson.
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