Sidius/Palpatine 2-pack

[JGouse0498]

mace was #3...maybe an older and more experienced anakin could beat him but not at that point in ROTS.

Not necessarily older. A more DISCIPLINED AND MATURE Anakin could have beaten Mace in ROTS. Anakin had enough power at his disposal. He only lacked the emotional and psychological capacity to use it. Look at how Obi-Wan beat him. Anakin had him essentially on the run and then tried to bum rush him.

 

[Vader AL]

Not necessarily older. A more DISCIPLINED AND MATURE Anakin could have beaten Mace in ROTS. Anakin had enough power at his disposal. He only lacked the emotional and psychological capacity to use it. Look at how Obi-Wan beat him. Anakin had him essentially on the run and then tried to bum rush him.

that's what i meant since that usually comes with experience/age. so we're in agreement.

 

[JGouse0498]

that's what i meant since that usually comes with experience/age. so we're in agreement.

I saw it as the Clone Wars being more than enough to experience/age someone as young as Anakin, so yes, we are in agreement.

 

[hairlesswookiee]

obi wan had more control over his powers than anakin. anankin just unleashed like an angry 8 year old. i dont think he could've ever beaten him. thats the difference between the two. anakin had the power/ potential, but obi wan had the skills/ patience.

 

[hairlesswookiee]

Exactly.

Look at the shock on Sidious' face when Yoda repelled his Force lightning. He clearly wasn't expecting that little trick. The only thing that saved him was his mass...Yoda was lighter and therefore got thrown farther that Sidious. And he had to resort to calling in the troops.

thank you. i've been arguing with my best friend about it since the movie came out. he keeps telling me that yoda got his A## whooped and ran away like a little biotch. i just don't see how you can get that from watching the fight between the two of them. yoda was owning him until palpatine started throwing the podiums.

 

[pixletwin]

Palpatine couldn't beat yoda and vice versa. They were too evenly matched and each canceled out the other. More importantly, it wasn't their destiny. This is what Star Wars is all about. Destiny.

It was Anakins destiny to destroy Palpatine. He was the only one who could do that. No one else. It was the will of the force that Anakin destroy Palpatine. Yoda understood that. That is why he ran away. Anakin was the only person who could destroy Palpatine. End of story.

and Nash: you are a liar if you say that you don't think/talk about this stuff.

 

[hairlesswookiee]

and Nash: you are a liar if you say that you don't think/talk about this stuff.

lol.......

 

[tomandshell]

The novelization made it more clear that Yoda voluntarily withdrew from the duel. He realized that the Sith had changed with the times in a way that the Jedi hadn't, and fighting them on their own terms wasn't going to work. He needed to be retrained by Qui-Gon and eventually pass that new training on to Luke--who finally brought an end to the conflict by refusing to fight and choosing to willingly sacrifice himself, which in the end brought about Anakin's return/redemption. Killing either Vader or Palpatine would have just continued the pattern of the Sith, but Yoda helped Luke to learn that "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." I think that is the lesson that Yoda learned and passed on to the new generation of Jedi, starting with Luke. Engaging your enemies on their own terms ultimately prolongs the conflict as violence begets violence. That's what happened with the Clone Wars--the Jedi became so immersed in fighting that it consumed them and almost brought about their destruction. In the end, Luke refused to fight and the Sith destroyed themselves.

 

[pixletwin]

The novelization made it more clear that Yoda voluntarily withdrew from the duel. He realized that the Sith had changed with the times in a way that the Jedi hadn't, and fighting them on their own terms wasn't going to work. He needed to be retrained by Qui-Gon and eventually pass that new training on to Luke--who finally brought an end to the conflict by refusing to fight and choosing to willingly sacrifice himself, which in the end brought about Anakin's return/redemption. Killing either Vader or Palpatine would have just continued the pattern of the Sith, but Yoda helped Luke to learn that "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." I think that is the lesson that Yoda learned Thatand passed on to the new generation of Jedi, starting with Luke. Engaging your enemies on their own terms ultimately prolongs the conflict as violence begets violence. That's what happened with the Clone Wars--the Jedi became so immersed in fighting that it consumed them and almost brought about their destruction. In the end, Luke refused to fight and the Sith destroyed themselves.

That is precisely what I was trying to say. Well put Tom.

 

[tomandshell]

Although with the whole idea about the Sith apprentice killing his master and taking his place, you would think that Palpatine would have been a little more on his guard.

:emperor

 

[dekadentdave]

For the record I'd just like to point out that ALL Sith Lords fight dirty and cheat and throw things when engaged in combat. Vader threw s#!t at Luke with the Force during the Cloud City duel, Maul cheated and cold-c-o-c-ked Qui-Gon before running him through with his saber, Dooku threw stuff at Yoda and so did Sidious. Heck, Dooku even threw Obi-Wan like a rag doll and knocked his ass unconscious so he wouldn't get tag teamed by him and Anakin. The Sith never fight fair but the Jedi are disciplined and fight fairly. I'd like to see a fair fight, no Force, no cheating. Just good old fashioned sword fighting between the Sith and Jedi. Dooku and Sidious would have their geriatric asses handed to them.

 

[tomandshell]

"So I threw the senate at him. The whole senate--true story!!"​

 

[lerath666]

But you need to look at hhow callous Palpatine was with his apprentices, he threw away Doou and Maul both, in his mind, he had already thrown away vader too.

 

[pixletwin]

Palpatine's flaw was that he trusted Anakin. He couldn't see past his own arrogance and only viewed Anakin/Vader as a tool. He never viewed him as a threat.

 

[automaton]

Mace was dealing with Palpatine not yet in his "true" form... Yoda was outnumbered and fled for good reason but declared that he must go into exile before he was visited by Qui Gon... missed opportunity with a rushed scene?

 

[Outer_Rim]

Mace was doomed from the moment he entered Palpatine´s office. He is the epitome of the old and arrogant Jedi Order, the same Order that does not listen to the living Force anymore and thinks the end justifies the means. Mace and the whole order are not prepared to fight against the new Sith.

Compassion and self-sacrifice are the true Jedi weapons, not violence and deception. Palpatine and theirs own arrogance led the Jedi to a trap called Clone Wars where the Order renounced to his principles. Yoda realized that after his duel with Palpatine; his robes falling from the top of the Senate chamber while he is lying on the ground is just a message from the living Force telling him the Order has failed and must be renewed. Only through compassion and self-sacrifice Luke will bring back the Choosen one to he lightside and the Sith will be destroyed.

Mace did not defeat Palpatine, Lucas said in the Ep3 audio-comentary that "Mace is winning when Anakin enters the office" (present continuous = action in progress, not finished). Not after or before, just when Anakins enters. Mace is on a par with Palpy, yes, but only in lightsaber combat. They are along with Anakin and Yoda the top swordmasters. Mace disarmed Palpy fair and square, but old uncle Palpy is far from defeated. Palpatine could have kept shooting lighting to try to overpower Mace when he was lying on the ground because he was not tired or weak at all, even in the novelization the arc lightning was making him stronger, he only faked weakness to turn Anakin. On the other hand, Mace was having a really hard time blocking Palpatine´s lightning. The only way Mace could has defeated Palpatine is with Anakin (the Choosen one) on his side.

 

[Prime Clone]

I reckon Mace had Sidious beat. The whole tragedy of that scene is that they came so close to eliminating the Sith, but Anakin stuffed it up. So really it was Anakin who was responsible for the fall of the Jedi and the Republic. When the enormity of this hits him, he realizes he's past the point of no return and joins Sidious.

Incidentally, I just love Palpatine's weird voice that phases in and out as he's recovering from the Force lightning!

 

[Outer_Rim]

I reckon Mace had Sidious beat. The whole tragedy of that scene is that they came so close to eliminating the Sith, but Anakin stuffed it up. So really it was Anakin who was responsible for the fall of the Jedi and the Republic. When the enormity of this hits him, he realizes he's past the point of no return and joins Sidious.

Incidentally, I just love Palpatine's weird voice that phases in and out as he's recovering from the Force lightning!

That is your POV, but Lucas has never said Mace defeated Palpy and never will. The tragedy of the scene lies in Anakin´s selfish behaviour, he should have stayed loyal to the Jedi and fight Palpatine with Mace, but instead of it he only thinks about his vision of Padmé dying and his fear to lose her. Only Anakin can kill Palpatine, Mace was fooled by Palpatine and so he can kill two birds with one stone.

Anakin´s famous "what have I done?" means he realize Palpatine wasn´t helpless and beaten, that it was a con, and now he is an accessory to the murder. This is his point of no return and he knows it. Now he must force himself to believe the Jedi are traitors, that he is doing it for the good of the galaxy and that this is the only way he can save Padmé

That weird voice is part of the con, in Lucas own words, Palpatine wasn´t tired at all.

 

[Socko]

yoda was owning him until palpatine started throwing the podiums.

Great bar talk with your friends.

 

[Customikey]

Hey, did you guys know they're releasing a two-pack? Sweet!!

Interesting. What do you suppose would have happened if Anakin decided to help Mace kill Palpatine? I know it's just because I love the character, but I think Palps would have fried both their asses.
:emperor