Star Wars: Ahsoka

[MeatHookGekko]

I’m just happy that Rey came along and finally accomplished what Obi-Wan, Luke, Qui-Gon, Mace, Anakin and Ahsoka couldn’t.

Finally give Kathleen Kennedy her long awaited "self insert" character into the Star Wars universe?

 

[DioramaMaker]

I find Star Wars best when you don't think too much into it.

Andor is the big exception to that.

That's not vindicating ****** writing or a lack of structured focus. That's not excusing ignorance of continuity or poorly building on it. That's not saying to mindlessly consume.

But when you think TOO hard about things in Star Wars, all of it just crumbles. You can pick it to pieces from OT to now. Star Wars is truly a sum of it's parts, and when you put it together, it's really pretty wonderful.

Ahsoka feels like that to me. Sure that's some wacky stuff, but hey, that's Star Wars. Space whales? Eh why not. Why make a big deal out of that if I'm going to ignore Kangaroo-Llamas on an ice planet. They can jump to light speed? There's a lot of stuff nature does which we seek to emulate in real life, checks out. Silly crab people? Ewoks are on line one.

There's so much we're just supposed to accept all the way from the start of the OT, there's no reason why it can't still do that. Every story is going to have plot contrivances. Didn't they go as far as to retcon that R2 told R5 to off himself so Owen would pick him instead? That at one point was just a convenience to move the plot where it needs to be.

People have always been filling every gap Star Wars has to offer narratively since day one - every Glub Shitto practically has a thesis and biography. That's what allows us to connect to the medium.

Ahsoka, of all the post Disney things, seems to do this the best, just simply be absurd and let you go into it.

 

[newapelles]

I find Star Wars best when you don't think too much into it.

Andor is the big exception to that.

That's not vindicating ****** writing or a lack of structured focus. That's not excusing ignorance of continuity or poorly building on it. That's not saying to mindlessly consume.

But when you think TOO hard about things in Star Wars, all of it just crumbles. You can pick it to pieces from OT to now. Star Wars is truly a sum of it's parts, and when you put it together, it's really pretty wonderful.

Ahsoka feels like that to me. Sure that's some wacky stuff, but hey, that's Star Wars. Space whales? Eh why not. Why make a big deal out of that if I'm going to ignore Kangaroo-Llamas on an ice planet. They can jump to light speed? There's a lot of stuff nature does which we seek to emulate in real life, checks out. Silly crab people? Ewoks are on line one.

There's so much we're just supposed to accept all the way from the start of the OT, there's no reason why it can't still do that. Every story is going to have plot contrivances. Didn't they go as far as to retcon that R2 told R5 to off himself so Owen would pick him instead? That at one point was just a convenience to move the plot where it needs to be.

People have always been filling every gap Star Wars has to offer narratively since day one - every Glub Shitto practically has a thesis and biography. That's what allows us to connect to the medium.

Ahsoka, of all the post Disney things, seems to do this the best, just simply be absurd and let you go into it.

Very true. Star Wars media, even the coveted OT, can easily be nitpicked to death. People's expectations are ruining their watching experience, in my opinion. I feel like Ahsoka blends the best parts of the PT and the OT, while also offering something that feels somewhat new. It's got the Star Wars "X-Factor".

 

[Asta]

I find Star Wars best when you don't think too much into it.

 

[jaztermareal]

The thing is though, people did criticise poor decisions made in OT such as having ewoks, but instead of learning from it and improving Disney Lucasfilm is doing the same thing again and again. Saying "the OT did stupid thing" such as Luke conveniently landing near Yoda (though he was being guided by the force) does not suddenly make doing it again (with someone not in touch with the force) forgivable. It makes it lazy. Just because cars once upon a time had no seatbelts doesn't mean we should accept a modern car not having them. Improvement is expected. Andor improved the quality of writing, while not every show needs to be Andor in tone they should all strive for similar levels of writing. Imagine Thrawn written with that quality of writing. That would be perfection.

That isn't to say that Ahsoka is bad, I actually have been relieved that the show has had very few cringe moments (Mandalorian had more cringe moments than Ahsoka). The visual effects have been good-great, there have been some memorable set pieces, the villains are not "evil for evils sake' moustache twirling villains and some designs are really great, especially the bad guys (Enoch is instantly iconic, the night troopers also, Marrock is far cooler looking than any previous live action inquisitors, Baylan and Shin both look very interesting) but the writing has been serviceable at best, bad at worst while many costumes for the good guys have been lazy (Captain Rex looked bad with the incorrect assembly, the other clones were all cheap cosplay looking with the poorly assembled armour that looked it could fall off the out of shape performers any moment) Hera and the new republic characters all look somehow cheap like store bought halloween costumes etc. Then there are the stupid things such as the super easy, barely an inconvenience to solve puzzle at the beginning, the hyperspace whaleswhich will always be a jumped the shark idea, Sabines case of the stupids to move the plot forward and overall abrasive and unlikable characterisation playing off Ahsoka's dull and lifeless arm crossing personality etc.

The show certainly is Mando season 1/2 level in that it is equal parts stupid, meh and awesome. A mixed bag where depending on what is important to you it is either the greatest show ever or terrible. Confirmation bias will make you remember the parts that were great while ignoring the bone-headed moments. If you like lightsaber battles, clone wars flashbacks, characters from cartoons appearing etc and mysticism taken to the extreme then it is amazing, a return to form for Star Wars. If you prefer great writing, no plot holes/contrivances, logic and intelligent characters you will prob hate it and ignore most of the redeeming qualities.

I think both those who like it and those who don't can agree that it is at least a memorable show overall so far with some great visuals.


In terms of good v bad Disney live action Star Wars, my personal list would be:

Good:
Andor
Rogue One

Okay/mostly good but flawed:
Solo
Mandalorian s1
Mandalorian s2
Ahsoka

Meh/Not so good but some redeeming parts:
TFA
Mandalorian s3
TBOBF
Kenobi


Downright unforgivably terrible:
TLJ
ROS

 

[DioramaMaker]

Andor is a gem, an experiment, and a great piece of media. I recommend it to non-fans all the time.

But it's not Star Wars. It's a political thriller with a Star Wars skin. A strange paradox for a franchise with war in the name.

Star Wars...is for kids. At the end of the day, the narrative needs and should be accessible to kids. It has a wonderful ability to transcend age, but the man himself said it.

And that's why Andor...fell a little flat in the big scheme of things. No kid wants to be Cassian. But they do want to be Ahoka or Luke or Han Solo.

I suppose we are at a pivotal moment for Star Wars, much like it's sister franchise, Marvel. Is there room for family friendly AND mature content? To this I say yes. And I think Kenobi and BoBF should have had that very target.

Movies: all audiences
TV shows: All audiences (Ahsoka) - Adult audiences (Mando)
Limited series: Mature audiences OWK, BoBF, Andor

I don't disagree with you @jaztermareal, just because we did it before doesn't justify imitating it, that's what I tried to convey with my opening statements. But it should lend leeway to the tightness of our narrative and maybe loosen the grip on holeless plot in favor of a more accessible story.

Like the puzzle thing you mentioned. It's the whole point of suspending disbelief I guess. To us that seemed trivial, but the narrative told us it wasn't. From there we know Sabine is techy and it gave a reason to get characters in the same room. But that's all impressive....for kiddos. It's very black and white storytelling that's accessible.

Andor isn't that though, and I think it's strengths are a cautionary tale on how to manage Star Wars. Too much Andor in the mix causes Star Wars to no longer be for everyone, and that's a bad thing.

Honestly, what I'd like to see is some of these big animation houses get a chance at writing live action Star Wars. These days the big animated movies have very strong plots with quality writing and dramatic, meaningful undertones. I think that would be a recipe to meet in the middle between improved writing and the whimsicalness needed for Star Wars.

 

[Ramatuelle]

EDIT:

Good:
Mando S1
Mando S2
About three episodes of BoBF
Andor (benefit of the doubt here, ppl whose opinion I respect say its good.)
Obi-Wan Vader scenes
Are we including animated? Good. TBB. A few eps are bad, most are good and a few approach brilliance.


Bad:
Most BoBF eps.
Obi-Wan minus the Vader scenes
Mando s3 SUCKED, except for some key moments.
3 episodes into Ahsoka, my socks are not rocked. Hardly.

More good than bad. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry KK haters that’s just the facts.
*********

Thats in spite of KK, not because of her.

 

[Ramatuelle]

Hey, is Prometheus worse than TLJ, or the other way around? I savagely hate both of these movies.

I want to say Prometheus is worse, but I dont know. Ridley Scott will never be forgiven I can tell you that much. I should have learned my lesson after Hannibal.

 

[jaztermareal]

Hey, is Prometheus worse than TLJ, or the other way around? I savagely hate both of these movies.

I want to say Prometheus is worse, but I dont know. Ridley Scott will never be forgiven I can tell you that much. I should have learned my lesson after Hannibal.

Objectively speaking (as much as I can be) I think Prometheus was a more plot hole ridden and stupid movie, but on the other hand it was more beautiful and had some very good designs and visuals. I think while being a worse movie Primetheus is at least very interesting to watch despite the extreme stupidity. TLJ I get no entertainment from watching and it created retroactive plot holes worse than Prometheus did. It also divided the fan base and destroyed merch in ways Prometheus could only wish to. Gotta say that while TLJ had some good acting, some good visuals and... uh.... one or two cool set pieces? Overall I find it irredeemable due to the damage it did to the lore and established characters in universe and the franchise in general.

 

[jaztermareal]

Andor is a gem, an experiment, and a great piece of media. I recommend it to non-fans all the time.

But it's not Star Wars. It's a political thriller with a Star Wars skin. A strange paradox for a franchise with war in the name.

Star Wars...is for kids. At the end of the day, the narrative needs and should be accessible to kids. It has a wonderful ability to transcend age, but the man himself said it.

And that's why Andor...fell a little flat in the big scheme of things. No kid wants to be Cassian. But they do want to be Ahoka or Luke or Han Solo.

I suppose we are at a pivotal moment for Star Wars, much like it's sister franchise, Marvel. Is there room for family friendly AND mature content? To this I say yes. And I think Kenobi and BoBF should have had that very target.

Movies: all audiences
TV shows: All audiences (Ahsoka) - Adult audiences (Mando)
Limited series: Mature audiences OWK, BoBF, Andor

I don't disagree with you @jaztermareal, just because we did it before doesn't justify imitating it, that's what I tried to convey with my opening statements. But it should lend leeway to the tightness of our narrative and maybe loosen the grip on holeless plot in favor of a more accessible story.

Like the puzzle thing you mentioned. It's the whole point of suspending disbelief I guess. To us that seemed trivial, but the narrative told us it wasn't. From there we know Sabine is techy and it gave a reason to get characters in the same room. But that's all impressive....for kiddos. It's very black and white storytelling that's accessible.

Andor isn't that though, and I think it's strengths are a cautionary tale on how to manage Star Wars. Too much Andor in the mix causes Star Wars to no longer be for everyone, and that's a bad thing.

Honestly, what I'd like to see is some of these big animation houses get a chance at writing live action Star Wars. These days the big animated movies have very strong plots with quality writing and dramatic, meaningful undertones. I think that would be a recipe to meet in the middle between improved writing and the whimsicalness needed for Star Wars.

Andor is Star Wars, more in line with TESB tonaly and did a lot of world building that enhances the OT and Rogue One. It simply showed things feom the perspective not seen before, more in line with the old EU novels. It is more Star Wars than BOBF or TLJ in many ways but primarily in that it respected the lore and characters it was using rather than break them.

Now, I will agree that it isn't so kid friendly but Star Wars right from the beginning was a universal franchise, not a kids one as we understand it today. George only went all in on the kid focus when he started losing his way. Back in 70's and 80"s movies for kids were often movies for everyone, they simply didn't have things unsuitable for kids (excessive gore for example). The OT was for kids the way Gremlins was. Everyone could enjoy. It was writen for an adult audience but easy enough to follow and with enough action to entertain kids imaginations.


Now, as I said in my previous post, I was not saying everything needs to be the same tone as Andor, just the same level of writing quality. You can absolutely have a fun kid focused show with an adventure tone AND have it written well (you know, eat the cake and have it too). What we keep getting though is cakes made entirely of icing. We should expect all scripts no matter the target audience to be as plot hole free as possible, for characters to be written as smartly as possible. Even if you are writing idiot characters you need them to behave consistently with their established character traits. Modern writing often has characters yoyo'ing between competent and complete idiocy in order to drive plot. That example of the super easy puzzle being a good example. Instead of a super simple puzzle that Ahsoka and Huyang suddenly lose all IQ in order to get Sabine in to solve, why not have the puzzle be actually complex (so characters are actually shown to be smart to solve (just call a puzzle designer, there are tons of hobbyists who could design one) and have Sabines role to be to help lead Ahsoka to an expert on her planet. It could be during that interaction where the characters together try to solve the puzzle (Ahsoka could use force to turn internal components that the expert identifies to show that the puzzle is unsolvable by unpowered folk) that the enemy attacks and takes the puzzle. Exact same outcome but the characters don't suddenly become idiots, Sabine gets ro actually be helpful rather than irresponsible and she could still hack the droid to get info or something to show she is techy.
I am no writer so that is not in any way perfect (a proper writer could come up with far better) but still, if I, a non writer, could on the fly come with a less stupid scenario then surely the writers of the show who are paid to do so could have done better if they had simply chosen to put a little effort in. Would still be kid friendly and actually would make Sabine less unlikeable.

 

[jye4ever]

Andor was a masterpiece Luthen’s bridge monologue on that Coruscant walk way was as high a level of dialogue as from anything that came out of Lawrence of Arabia, Dr Zhivago or Bridge on the River Kwai.

The world is big enough to have 3 types of SW:

1. Swashbuckling
2. Serious Slow Meaty Drama
3. Swashbuckling combined with Serious Slow Meaty Drama

 

[Ramatuelle]

Objectively speaking (as much as I can be) I think Prometheus was a more plot hole ridden and stupid movie, but on the other hand it was more beautiful and had some very good designs and visuals. I think while being a worse movie Primetheus is at least very interesting to watch despite the extreme stupidity. TLJ I get no entertainment from watching and it created retroactive plot holes worse than Prometheus did. It also divided the fan base and destroyed merch in ways Prometheus could only wish to. Gotta say that while TLJ had some good acting, some good visuals and... uh.... one or two cool set pieces? Overall I find it irredeemable due to the damage it did to the lore and established characters in universe and the franchise in general.

These are all good points, yet two things really stick out in my mind:

1. "The atmosphere seems okay on this strange planet, perhaps teeming with pathogens... OK LETS ALL TAKE OFF OUR HELMETS!" That's some primo-level science-in' right there.

2. "Scientists" getting lost in a tunnel system previously mapped by drone.

No, wait. 3. A "Scientist" petting an unknown organism despite an obvious threat-display.

GENIUS!! pros: great cinematography and those Engineers did look cool.

vs.

1. Luke is now a completely different person. Unforgivable.

2. We no longer need spacesuits in the vacuum of space, who knew!

3. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY

4. Rose Tico. Where is that orbital space laser platform when you need it? First Order, you can't find it in you to wipe out -one- obnoxious b...... ok. Can't you First Order maroons do ONE THING right?! Just one!

GENIUS! Pros: great cinematography and that, my friends and frenemies is about it. Both these movies are pretty damn bad.

 

[Ramatuelle]

Andor was a masterpiece Luthen’s bridge monologue on that Coruscant walk way was as high a level of dialogue as from anything that came out of Lawrence of Arabia, Dr Zhivago or Bridge on the River Kwai.

The world is big enough to have 3 types of SW:

1. Swashbuckling
2. Serious Slow Meaty Drama
3. Swashbuckling combined with Serious Slow Meaty Drama

One thing have you forgotten, padawan!! Serious Drama is not compatible with an age rating of NINE. I think that's why we don't see much of it.

I would even take mindless swashbuckling over Grogu's Mad Hatter party.

 

[jye4ever]

One thing have you forgotten, padawan!! Serious Drama is not compatible with an age rating of NINE. I think that's why we don't see much of it.

I would even take mindless swashbuckling over Grogu's Mad Hatter party.

My 15 year old son is absolutely ready for some mature serious drama!!

He’s been on TikTok for 12 hours straight he said as soon as he gets off he’s going to start Andor!

 

[jaztermareal]

I think we understimate how much young kids can enjoy drama. The Lion King had plenty and it engaged them. It is all about presentation and some comic relief goes a long way.

 

[jye4ever]

I think we understimate how much young kids can enjoy drama. The Lion King had plenty and it engaged them. It is all about presentation and some comic relief goes a long way.

People forget comedy acting and writing is 1000 times harder to pull off than drama.

For example the comedy in I Love Lucy is operating at such high levels of skill that it can easily be overlooked just how difficult it is to pull off that level of timing at that insane level of frequency.

 

[ajp4mgs]

The criticism of Luke "conveniently" crash landing within walking distance of Dagobah has long been a pet peeve of mine, so since its been brought up here, I feel compelled to distinguish why I consider this "convenience" vastly different in setup and purpose from the absurd convenience of Ezra being found so easily in the latest episode.

Luke was told about Dagobah/Yoda by a ghost Kenobi who was capable of keeping tabs on him at anytime, anywhere. This is the same ghost who was speaking to Luke in his head as he flew an X-Wing through the Death Star trench in the previous film. With that context, I don't know why fans just assume that Kenobi would have nothing to do with Luke "conveniently" crash-landing near Yoda.

In addition to a ghost guide ("more powerful than you can possibly imagine") with keen interest in speeding up the process of Luke's training, there was also the incredibly wise and powerful Jedi Master Yoda (who had remotely watched Luke grow up) anticipating the encounter. Their involvement in the encounter being expedited can be assumed, IMO, because the setup is there. Set up by the movie itself, and even by the previous one. It's something that wouldn't need screen time to be made explicit since there's so much implicit context.

Now compare that to Sabine finding Ezra. This is an Ezra who is a nomad, with the episode stating that he never stays in one spot too long. This is an Ezra who was the sole person responsible for Thrawn being thwarted and exiled. So, Thrawn - arguably the SMARTEST character in this universe - would've wanted Ezra found and neutralized for the last 10 years because Ezra has proven capable of single-handedly disrupting Thrawn's plans. And yet, Thrawn has no idea of his whereabouts, or if he's even alive, despite being aligned with magic-powered witches who can sense freaking Ahsoka's presence coming from *another galaxy!*

Thrawn employing Baylan and Shin to track Sabine to Ezra (despite working with seemingly omniscient witches) proves that Thrawn does indeed consider neutralizing Ezra a high priority. When Sabine finds him within minutes using some rudimentary deductive reasoning, after the smartest character in SW has shown no ability to do so, that makes it radically different than Luke "finding" Yoda.

One instance (in ESB) is only an example of convenience if you ignore the role that Kenobi played in guiding Luke, and also ignore how much Luke can rely on the Force in general to guide him. You'd have to believe that all-seeing ghost Kenobi thought just naming someone on a strange planet would've sufficed. On the other hand, there's convenience (in Ahsoka) by way of a series of absurd contrivances which defy logic and have no appropriate setup.

One (ESB) I see as more an example of efficient storytelling without explaining every detail that the audience should be able to piece together for themselves. The other (Ahsoka) I consider an example of lazy storytelling that depends so damn much on an audience not asking questions and not caring one iota about logic. Just my take, though.

 

[Khev]

The criticism of Luke "conveniently" crash landing within walking distance of Dagobah has long been a pet peeve of mine, so since its been brought up here, I feel compelled to distinguish why I consider this "convenience" vastly different in setup and purpose from the absurd convenience of Ezra being found so easily in the latest episode.

Luke was told about Dagobah/Yoda by a ghost Kenobi who was capable of keeping tabs on him at anytime, anywhere. This is the same ghost who was speaking to Luke in his head as he flew an X-Wing through the Death Star trench in the previous film. With that context, I don't know why fans just assume that Kenobi would have nothing to do with Luke "conveniently" crash-landing near Yoda.

In addition to a ghost guide ("more powerful than you can possibly imagine") with keen interest in speeding up the process of Luke's training, there was also the incredibly wise and powerful Jedi Master Yoda (who had remotely watched Luke grow up) anticipating the encounter. Their involvement in the encounter being expedited can be assumed, IMO, because the setup is there. Set up by the movie itself, and even by the previous one. It's something that wouldn't need screen time to be made explicit since there's so much implicit context.

Now compare that to Sabine finding Ezra. This is an Ezra who is a nomad, with the episode stating that he never stays in one spot too long. This is an Ezra who was the sole person responsible for Thrawn being thwarted and exiled. So, Thrawn - arguably the SMARTEST character in this universe - would've wanted Ezra found and neutralized for the last 10 years because Ezra has proven capable of single-handedly disrupting Thrawn's plans. And yet, Thrawn has no idea of his whereabouts, or if he's even alive, despite being aligned with magic-powered witches who can sense freaking Ahsoka's presence coming from *another galaxy!*

Thrawn employing Baylan and Shin to track Sabine to Ezra (despite working with seemingly omniscient witches) proves that Thrawn does indeed consider neutralizing Ezra a high priority. When Sabine finds him within minutes using some rudimentary deductive reasoning, after the smartest character in SW has shown no ability to do so, that makes it radically different than Luke "finding" Yoda.

One instance (in ESB) is only an example of convenience if you ignore the role that Kenobi played in guiding Luke, and also ignore how much Luke can rely on the Force in general to guide him. You'd have to believe that all-seeing ghost Kenobi thought just naming someone on a strange planet would've sufficed. On the other hand, there's convenience (in Ahsoka) by way of a series of absurd contrivances which defy logic and have no appropriate setup.

One (ESB) I see as more an example of efficient storytelling without explaining every detail that the audience should be able to piece together for themselves. The other (Ahsoka) I consider an example of lazy storytelling that depends so damn much on an audience not asking questions and not caring one iota about logic. Just my take, though.

Those are all valid assumptions regarding Luke finding Yoda but none of them apply to the probe droid conveniently touching down in Echo Base's backyard so Sabine finding Ezra is fine.

Either she was guided by the Force (like Luke) or she got lucky (like the probe.) I don't find either scenario in ESB to be a "flaw" or lazy storytelling and likewise for Ahsoka.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Those are all valid assumptions regarding Luke finding Yoda but none of them apply to the probe droid conveniently touching down in Echo Base's backyard so Sabine finding Ezra is fine.

Either she was guided by the Force (like Luke) or she got lucky (like the probe.) I don't find either scenario in ESB to be a "flaw" or lazy storytelling and likewise for Ahsoka.

But Khev, that probe was one of many that were deployed, as seen on screen. And a reasonable inference can be made that even the ones we saw were just a small fraction of the total number deployed by the Empire in the years between ANH and ESB. It was one of *many* being lucky enough to interact with the secret Rebel hideout.

I think the two examples are apples to oranges.

 

[Khev]

But Khev, that probe was one of many that were deployed, as seen on screen. And a reasonable inference can be made that even the ones we saw were just a small fraction of the total number deployed by the Empire in the years between ANH and ESB. It was one of *many* being lucky enough to interact with the secret Rebel hideout.

I think the two examples are apples to oranges.

Fair enough, but I was speaking to the one probe that the camera followed from the Star Destroyer all the way to its landing on Hoth. Apple to apples *that* probe was even "luckier" than Sabine. At least she had guides.