Star Wars: Ahsoka

[jaztermareal]

Spark of Rebellion (Parts 1 & 2) (S01E01 & S01E02)
Fire Across the Galaxy (S01E15)
The Siege of Lothal (Parts 1 & 2) (S02E01 & S02E02)
Shroud of Darkness (S02E18)
Twilight of the Apprentice (Parts 1 & 2) (S02E21 & S02E22)
Steps into Shadow (Parts 1 & 2) (S03E01 & S03E02)
Hera's Heroes (S03E05)
Through Imperial Eyes (S03E17)
A World Between Worlds (S04E13)
Family Reunion and Farewell (Parts 1 & 2) (S04E15 & S04E16)


^
A fair argument and consideration to make is that the "casual viewer" ( which is the majority going into Ashoka) has no background on Clone Wars and Rebels. Without the benefit of long form storytelling, Ashoka needs to be extremely economical.

When do you lose the audience?

1) When you violate fundamental storytelling (Everything must have a purpose, there can't be any bloat, you can't have scenes and characters that can be removed and have no impact on the overall storyline)

2) When you break immersion.

3) When you keeping violating the self imposed "rules" of your world building

Alien 1, Predator 1, Terminator 1, Die Hard, etc, there are a short list of films that have stood the test of time. They are all extremely compact. They are all based in fundamental storytelling convention. There's no bloat. They aren't breaking their own rules.

Try to litmus test. Go through any of the modern Star Wars films and shows. What can you remove completely, be it a character, or a subplot, or some other glitch, that can be totally removed, and have absolutely zero impact on the overall story period. If you try to remove Parker and Brett being leveraged into the "rescue mission" over possibly losing their shares, and Ash is the one who leaves that out there with quiet clinical menace, you lose a ton of the space trucker theme of Alien 1 and keeping the characters from breaking immersion.

Greedo doesn't need to shoot first. You don't need to remove Sebastian Shaw's "ghost" and replace him with Hayden Christensen. Djarin doesn't need to hand over the Dark Saber in S3 when the end of Mando S2 says he can't do that. You might call it overthinking. I call it self sabotage.

IMHO, Star Wars is "best" when it is fundamental, stays in it's own lane, and has no bloat. Now I believe Filoni is a doing a decent job here making Ashoka ( though the show isn't really about Ashoka is it...) but it's clearly despite what usually is being pumped out from the "modern" SW assembly line. Simple plots/Complex characters > Complex plots/Simple characters

Great example of bloat would be TLJ's sidequest with Finn and Rose that in the end achieved nothing. Could cut it out and still have the same result.

 

[ironwez20]

Great example of bloat would be TLJ's sidequest with Finn and Rose that in the end achieved nothing. Could cut it out and still have the same result.

But.. they freed the space horses. Leading to the next film where we see an army ride ontop of a ship on space horses. That means something!

 

[jaztermareal]

But.. they freed the space horses. Leading to the next film where we see an army ride ontop of a ship on space horses. That means something!

It's like poetry... it rhymes

 

[Raleig.h]

Man I just realized, when we get a Thrawn figure it’s likely going to be accurate to this show, meaning he’s gonna probably have all the scuffs and tattered areas of his uniform. RIP anyone who wants to use him for any other context other than Ahsoka it’s understandable though, not HTs fault.

 

[ironwez20]

It's like poetry... it rhymes

In this case it’s not like poetry but a bad mumble rap album. It rhymes but still can suck. I’m looking at you 90% of the rappers from the early 2010s

 

[ironwez20]

Man I just realized, when we get a Thrawn figure it’s likely going to be accurate to this show, meaning he’s gonna probably have all the scuffs and tattered areas of his uniform. RIP anyone who wants to use him for any other context other than Ahsoka it’s understandable though, not HTs fault.

Some good ole bleach and and iron board outta take care of that

 

[greymask]

And get those HS from third party bateman, then paint it blue

 

[The Buffinator]

My view of the Luke situation has less to do with finding Yoda via the Force and more to do with the Kenobi ghost wanting to get Luke trained by Yoda. I think it'd be silly to assume that Kenobi would just name a planet to go to and then offer no other guidance or assistance in making sure Luke isn't wandering around an entire planet for days/weeks/months/years looking for some "Yoda" guy.

The Zahn novels said that Yoda used the Force to pull down the X-Wing at a close proximity, but even that is something I find unnecessary when the previous movies already showed that Kenobi can speak into Luke's mind.

There's setup and context that can be used to understand that Luke isn't going to be made to search blindly.

As for the ease of finding Ezra, we can just agree to disagree and it's fine. What I hate about it is what it implies about Thrawn. Even if you excuse it as Jedi trainee Sabine and Ezra using the Force to make that needle-in-a-haystack reunion happen so quickly, Thrawn still would've failed to employ the witches (who - again - can sense Ahsoka coming from another galaxy) or his own profound deductive reasoning skills to have found and eliminated his only threat there.

I might not have been as annoyed without the Thrawn implication, but there's been so many other lazy plot devices and contrived setups that it's approaching TROS levels for me and would've made me roll my eyes at this point, regardless.

I think what this implies about Thrawn is that while they were in exile he didn't view Ezra as a threat at all. It's not like Ezra was going to attempt to assassinate him, and he wouldn't be concerned about Ezra's being a saboteur because until Morgan Elsbeth showed up with the Eye of Sion there was nothing of significance to sabotage. Thrawn had more important things to worry about than revenge. Revenge gains him nothing, whereas Ezra's being alive increases the likelihood that someone like Sabine might unwittingly provide a means for his escaping exile. And for Ezra's part, up to this point he would have considered Thrawn as a job done. No doubt he was still wary of showing up on Thrawn's radar, but he probably concluded there was no chance that any purrgil was going to give Thrawn a ride out of there lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think what this implies about Thrawn is that while they were in exile he didn't view Ezra as a threat at all. It's not like Ezra was going to attempt to assassinate him, and he wouldn't be concerned about Ezra's being a saboteur because until Morgan Elsbeth showed up with the Eye of Sion there was nothing of significance to sabotage. Thrawn had more important things to worry about than revenge. Revenge gains him nothing, whereas Ezra's being alive increases the likelihood that someone like Sabine might unwittingly provide a means for his escaping exile. And for Ezra's part, up to this point he would have considered Thrawn as a job done. No doubt he was still wary of showing up on Thrawn's radar, but he probably concluded there was no chance that any purrgil was going to give Thrawn a ride out of there lol.

I think even for a dumbass like Ozzel or Hux, keeping tabs on Ezra would be considered a tactical necessity. But this is especially the case since we're talking about Thrawn, the *ultimate* strategist and tactician. I struggle to understand how that's not considered a given.

It's clear that Thrawn had been planning an escape for a long time. He was also coordinating his escape with the aid of witches using magic powers. Ezra has the Force, and can therefore be considered capable of perhaps sensing these witches and their dark arts. The same Ezra who had already proven capable of single-handedly disrupting Thrawn's plans and thwarting his best efforts.

You say that there was nothing to sabotage until the Eye of Sion showed up, but that completely ignores the extensive repairs being made to the Chimeara for what likely took years. Why would Thrawn think that Ezra would be unconcerned about that? Why would Ezra not view the repairs as part of some way that the genius Thrawn had devised to get back? Sabatoge *at any point* of this process should've been on the table as at least a concern, no?

Even your point about Sabine proves why Ezra would be considered a potential asset, if nothing else. Baylan convinced her to risk the entire galaxy for a chance to reunite with Ezra. Why wouldn't Thrawn think himself capable of coming up with a way to manipulate Ezra's emotions to call on space whales for a return trip home? They routinely migrate there (to die - which is a unique spin on the purpose of migration ), so it's not like there'd be no potential opportunity.

We're talking about a uniquely resourceful, Force-powered Ezra - who had shown willingness to sacrifice everything in order to stop Thrawn once before. Might be a good idea for a supposedly brilliant and desperate man to not lose track of an adversary like that. But you seem to disagree, and that's fine. Just wanted to make sure I'm clear on what we're specifically disagreeing about and why. I believe Thrawn needs to be written much more carefully and capably than any other SW antagonist, otherwise his defining traits get compromised.

 

[The Buffinator]

I think even for a dumbass like Ozzel or Hux, keeping tabs on Ezra would be considered a tactical necessity. But this is especially the case since we're talking about Thrawn, the *ultimate* strategist and tactician. I struggle to understand how that's not considered a given.

It's clear that Thrawn had been planning an escape for a long time. He was also coordinating his escape with the aid of witches using magic powers. Ezra has the Force, and can therefore be considered capable of perhaps sensing these witches and their dark arts. The same Ezra who had already proven capable of single-handedly disrupting Thrawn's plans and thwarting his best efforts.

You say that there was nothing to sabotage until the Eye of Sion showed up, but that completely ignores the extensive repairs being made to the Chimeara for what likely took years. Why would Thrawn think that Ezra would be unconcerned about that? Why would Ezra not view the repairs as part of some way that the genius Thrawn had devised to get back? Sabatoge *at any point* of this process should've been on the table as at least a concern, no?

Even your point about Sabine proves why Ezra would be considered a potential asset, if nothing else. Baylan convinced her to risk the entire galaxy for a chance to reunite with Ezra. Why wouldn't Thrawn think himself capable of coming up with a way to manipulate Ezra's emotions to call on space whales for a return trip home? They routinely migrate there (to die - which is a unique spin on the purpose of migration ), so it's not like there'd be no potential opportunity.

We're talking about a uniquely resourceful, Force-powered Ezra - who had shown willingness to sacrifice everything in order to stop Thrawn once before. Might be a good idea for a supposedly brilliant and desperate man to not lose track of an adversary like that. But you seem to disagree, and that's fine. Just wanted to make sure I'm clear on what we're specifically disagreeing about and why. I believe Thrawn needs to be written much more carefully and capably than any other SW antagonist, otherwise his defining traits get compromised.

I guess I’m thinking that Thrawn might have considered Ezra’s Force abilities as a Plan B if the Nightsisters dropped the ball. If the Eye of Sion plan went bust he still had someone who might be able to mystically reach someone in their distant galaxy (or the purrgils as you suggested). If he killed Ezra then there’s no backup plan.

As for the Chimaera, I viewed repairing that as something Thrawn & crew needed to do simply to survive out there. And genius or not, he simply didn’t have the resources at his disposal to upgrade that thing to allow for a return home (hence the Eye of Sion plan in the first place). Pretty sure Ezra would know that as well. I get that none of this plays into Thrawn’s reputation as a master strategist, but it’s hard for him to display that with so few pieces on the chessboard.

 

[Khev]

Going back to my own comparison between Thrawn and Hans Gruber...Hans was fine boxing McClane in in order to render him irrelevant despite McClane having killed Karl's brother, called the cops, and otherwise proving to be a huge nuisance. And that was with McClane being relatively "easy" to find since he was limited to a single skyscraper as opposed to having an entire planet to hide on.

If Thrawn's ship could simply hover a mile above the surface with Ezra having absolutely no way to reach him then carpet bombing all life forms (nomads, crabs, wolves, etc.) into oblivion on the off chance they might take out Ezra could be seen as a huge and ultimately pointless waste of time and resources.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I guess I’m thinking that Thrawn might have considered Ezra’s Force abilities as a Plan B if the Nightsisters dropped the ball. If the Eye of Sion plan went bust he still had someone who might be able to mystically reach someone in their distant galaxy (or the purrgils as you suggested). If he killed Ezra then there’s no backup plan.

As for the Chimaera, I viewed repairing that as something Thrawn & crew needed to do simply to survive out there. And genius or not, he simply didn’t have the resources at his disposal to upgrade that thing to allow for a return home (hence the Eye of Sion plan in the first place). Pretty sure Ezra would know that as well. I get that none of this plays into Thrawn’s reputation as a master strategist, but it’s hard for him to display that with so few pieces on the chessboard.

Ezra is a pretty big piece on that chessboard. A piece that you yourself suggest could be of value to Thrawn. And yet Thrawn says he's not only unaware of Ezra's whereabouts, but not even sure if he's still alive. With, as you say, so few pieces on the chessboard, it makes it all the more glaring to have such neglect for potentially the *biggest* one, IMO.

What you say about Ezra's Force abilities being a Plan B is totally negated by Thrawn revealing that for all he knows Ezra is already dead. And that's before the plan with the Nightsisters has proven successful. Even though we as the audience know that the plan will work, the inevitable arrival of Ahsoka is supposed to be leaving it in doubt for us and for Thrawn. And yet... no concern for Ezra's whereabouts until Sabine shows up.

There may still be some reveal which proves that there's more to all this than how it seems on the surface right now. If so, great. If not, I consider it a weak job of handling Thrawn. If you want to see Thrawn's characterization properly handled in current canon, I strongly recommend reading this novel:

 

[ajp4mgs]

Going back to my own comparison between Thrawn and Hans Gruber...Hans was fine boxing McClane in in order to render him irrelevant despite McClane having killed Karl's brother, called the cops, and otherwise proving to be a huge nuisance. And that was with McClane being relatively "easy" to find since he was limited to a single skyscraper as opposed to having an entire planet to hide on.

If Thrawn's ship could simply hover a mile above the surface with Ezra having absolutely no way to reach him then carpet bombing all life forms (nomads, crabs, wolves, etc.) into oblivion on the off chance they might take out Ezra could be seen as a huge and ultimately pointless waste of time and resources.

Gruber was very much concerned with isolating and neutralizing McClane. He sent goons after him and tried to have him killed. What complicated things was that those efforts are what resulted in McClane acquiring the radio and weapons to be a bigger disruption threat.

At no point did Gruber show any inclination to disregard McClane the way Thrawn has seemingly done with Ezra. And that's with Ezra having already single-handedly defeated Thrawn in the past.

If Thrawn is supposed to be a Gruber-like antagonist in this series, he shouldn't be willing to let a Force-powered being like Ezra go completely unchecked. I'm not saying there needs to be an all-out effort to kill Ezra, but at the very least keep tabs on him in case he needs to be utilized or neutralized. Again: This guy already defeated Thrawn in an foreseeable way once before, so there's no room for arrogantly neglecting to account for that possibility a second time. Palpatine? Sure. Thrawn? No.

And it was proven how ridiculously easy it is to find Ezra. Because he was brazen enough to make extra-galactic Rebel Alliance pendants for the crab people. Those would instantly be connected by anyone in Thrawn's crew to association with Ezra and his whereabouts. I just think the whole setup so far has elements that are laughably dumb. Not how a plot involving Thrawn should play out, IMO.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I think what this implies about Thrawn is that while they were in exile he didn't view Ezra as a threat at all.

What if Ezra is more than just bait? What if Ezra is already dead.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

It's clear that Thrawn had been planning an escape for a long time.

Thrawn could be completely insane at this point. He seems rational and thoughtful, when a "presentation" is needed for public discourse, he can default to that.

But you can't survive that long without having something to look forward to in life. What did he have to compromise or promise to those Stormtroopers to keep them loyal.

 

[jye4ever]

Wait until agp sees the the new clip of Thrawn searching for Ezra…

 

[The Buffinator]

Ezra is a pretty big piece on that chessboard. A piece that you yourself suggest could be of value to Thrawn. And yet Thrawn says he's not only unaware of Ezra's whereabouts, but not even sure if he's still alive. With, as you say, so few pieces on the chessboard, it makes it all the more glaring to have such neglect for potentially the *biggest* one, IMO.

What you say about Ezra's Force abilities being a Plan B is totally negated by Thrawn revealing that for all he knows Ezra is already dead. And that's before the plan with the Nightsisters has proven successful. Even though we as the audience know that the plan will work, the inevitable arrival of Ahsoka is supposed to be leaving it in doubt for us and for Thrawn. And yet... no concern for Ezra's whereabouts until Sabine shows up.

There may still be some reveal which proves that there's more to all this than how it seems on the surface right now. If so, great. If not, I consider it a weak job of handling Thrawn. If you want to see Thrawn's characterization properly handled in current canon, I strongly recommend reading this novel:

Well, it could just be that Thrawn was lying about not knowing if Ezra was dead or alive. And that statement wasn't before the Nightsister plan proved successful as we didn't even meet Thrawn until after the Eye of Sion arrived intact and capable of making the return journey (I realize that viewing it a success at the halfway point is premature, but at that point in time Thrawn had no intel to think otherwise) . And his interaction with Sabine (as well as his allowing her to leave and hunt for Ezra AND his sending Baylan, Shin and two squadrons to do mop-up duty) all took place prior to the Nightsisters' informing him that another Jedi (likely the not-quite-dead-yet Ahsoka) was en route to their location. So even though the odds were low that Ezra could do anything to stop his leaving he still took steps to make sure of it once Plan A proved successful. Even a genius can be tripped up by lack of and/or bad information so I think it's still TBD regarding how well they're handling Thrawn. I'm interested to see what he's having the Nightsisters cook up in preparation for Ahsoka's arrival. Hopefully tonight's episode will shed further light.

p.s. - Thanks for the book recommendation - I've added it to my list.

 

[The Buffinator]

What if Ezra is more than just bait? What if Ezra is already dead.

Uh, say what now? Did you watch last week’s episode?

 

[Khev]

Gruber was very much concerned with isolating and neutralizing McClane. He sent goons after him and tried to have him killed. What complicated things was that those efforts are what resulted in McClane acquiring the radio and weapons to be a bigger disruption threat.

At no point did Gruber show any inclination to disregard McClane the way Thrawn has seemingly done with Ezra. And that's with Ezra having already single-handedly defeated Thrawn in the past.

If Thrawn is supposed to be a Gruber-like antagonist in this series, he shouldn't be willing to let a Force-powered being like Ezra go completely unchecked. I'm not saying there needs to be an all-out effort to kill Ezra, but at the very least keep tabs on him in case he needs to be utilized or neutralized. Again: This guy already defeated Thrawn in an foreseeable way once before, so there's no room for arrogantly neglecting to account for that possibility a second time. Palpatine? Sure. Thrawn? No.

I only watched the episode once so correct me if I'm wrong but did Thrawn indicate that he had completely "neglected" any effort to find Ezra from the moment they arrived on the planet? I thought he just said he didn't know where he was without any specifics as to what effort had been made to find him. And with such a vague explanation of what's been going on all that time I'm fine with giving Thrawn the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do anything "stupid" in all that time with regard to Ezra. I say that because I don't have any problem coming up with a pretty big number of reasons that Ezra would still be alive and well with Thrawn not too concerned.

For one we can reasonably assume that in all the long years they've been there Ezra has done absolutely nothing to in any way inconvenience Thrawn. That's a pretty good winning streak of Thrawn being "right" in claiming that Ezra is no threat. Sure that can indicate that Thrawn has some level of arrogance (how could he not) that can even be considered a "flaw" that will bite him in the ass when Ezra causes trouble either this week or next week but, again, Thrawn was right for a long time and I'd say there's more than enough wiggle room presented at least so far to allow for the Ezra/McClane of the story to come back and defeat the bad guy without the Hans Gruber of the story being lame.

Of course this is still Disney+ SW we're talking about so I fully realize that we're potentially only one episode away from a big flashback episode that shows Thrawn chasing Ezra at a slow jog across the tundra, never closing the gap due to Ezra's undefeatable serpentine Benny Hill maneuvers.

And it was proven how ridiculously easy it is to find Ezra.

I actually like the notion that the blind spot for the Empire was so easy to exploit for anyone who doesn't approach the locals with guns blazing. To me that's very much in the tradition of classic SW themes.

 

[a-dev]

Of course this is still Disney+ SW we're talking about so I fully realize that we're potentially only one episode away from a big flashback episode that shows Thrawn chasing Ezra at a slow jog across the tundra, never closing the gap due to Ezra's undefeatable serpentine Benny Hill maneuvers.