Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[a-dev]

It's sad but I don't think I can stay away from the internet altogether. I had in mind just to avoid the thread and youtube.

 

[jye4ever]

 

[ajp4mgs]

Read this to understand the ST...

I wanted to defend the ST here by stating something to the effect that "the outside material isn't required reading," but then I started thinking about certain elements in the two movies and realized how disingenuous that defense would be.

Just one example: a question that should be asked by anyone paying attention to the story so far would be, "why did the powerful Republic leave confronting the First Order to Leia and her tiny, outmatched Resistance (actually rogues of the Republic)?" It's an important point that gets addressed . . . in a novel (Bloodline).

So, yeah, I understand your point, TaliBane. And I seriously doubt that some of the questions that are fairly important to plot logic (like the example above) will be answered in TROS. Not a good thing.

 

[Robopredinator]

Luke described the Force as a tension that binds everything together; he didn't say that the Force is neither light nor dark. His description of the Force is very much in keeping with Yoda's explanation in ESB: "Its energy surrounds us and binds us. . . . You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land and the ship." And Yoda also obviously warned Luke about the dangers of the *Dark Side* of the Force. He warned Luke about how the tree cave had a strong connection with the Dark Side. The same sort of lesson was imparted to Rey in TLJ.

As Luke explained further to her in that same scene you're referencing, there is "powerful light" and "powerful dark." When Rey is summoned to the dark, she goes right to it and Luke is shocked that she didn't resist. That tells me two things (and this is obviously just my personal interpretation): 1.) there is indeed a dark side that tempts and corrupts, and 2.) Rey went willingly, and came out unchanged, because she cannot be corrupted. She belongs exclusively to the light side because that's from where she came to exist.

I'll likely be proven wrong, but given what I've learned so far from these stories, that's what my interpretation is leading me to theorize about Rey.

Ah, thanks for the clarification - forgot about the dark side refers to the dark side of the force. Star Wars knowledge isn't my forte but I do enjoy all the movies. Except TLJ. TLJ was horrible.

 

[Prime Clone]

As explained in TLJ, Rey is the answer from the Light Side of the Force to meet the new challenge from the Dark Side (Kylo). So, I think she's a child of the Force, much like how Anakin was presented to us in TPM until we learned that Palpatine was behind his creation (that's official now, right?). If Palpatine could create Anakin, maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda created Rey (both of their voices are heard in her TFA Force vision, which might've been a clue all along).

My sentiments (almost) exactly, as I recently posted in the Rey's origin thread.

If I could take it a step further, Rey's awakening could be due to Luke cutting himself off from The Force, meaning the light side needed a new "vessel". So she wouldn't be a direct creation of Luke, but maybe a "by-product" of his actions.

And I recently read Pablo Hildago comments that Kylo is indeed the Skywalker of this trilogy, so his redemption is possibly what the TROS title refers to.

(BTW I'm not that pumped for AEG *or* GoT, so it's just another SW week for me!)

 

[ZE_501]

‘Redemption’ for Kylo? Vader’s last minute ‘redemption’ after a career of murder, torture and outright genocide was bad enough.

Kylo has all of that in the ledger plus the patricide of a beloved OT hero.

That’s a tough sell.


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[Prime Clone]

That's a good point. But he's also been more obviously conflicted than Vader was.

 

[rushmore223]

Crap Marvel is posting this on Facebook which they don't do unless there's something really big to spoil so I think this is my cue to sign off until Friday. See you on the other side gentlemen!

It's hard to be completely disconnected from the internet. I've stayed away from any and all spoilers aside from the trailers.



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[TaliBane]

‘Redemption’ for Kylo? Vader’s last minute ‘redemption’ after a career of murder, torture and outright genocide was bad enough.

Kylo has all of that in the ledger plus the patricide of a beloved OT hero.

That’s a tough sell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Widowed Mrs Antilles hates your guts.

 

[TaliBane]

I wanted to defend the ST here by stating something to the effect that "the outside material isn't required reading," but then I started thinking about certain elements in the two movies and realized how disingenuous that defense would be.

Just one example: a question that should be asked by anyone paying attention to the story so far would be, "why did the powerful Republic leave confronting the First Order to Leia and her tiny, outmatched Resistance (actually rogues of the Republic)?" It's an important point that gets addressed . . . in a novel (Bloodline).

So, yeah, I understand your point, TaliBane. And I seriously doubt that some of the questions that are fairly important to plot logic (like the example above) will be answered in TROS. Not a good thing.

Sorry, wasn't intended as a dig at you - I enjoy your thoughts. As I've said before, in all seriousness I'd take your views on the ST over Pablo Hidlago or Leland Chee.

 

[ajp4mgs]

(BTW I'm not that pumped for AEG *or* GoT, so it's just another SW week for me!)

Same here. It may just be you and me in the SW threads for the next couple of days.

‘Redemption’ for Kylo? Vader’s last minute ‘redemption’ after a career of murder, torture and outright genocide was bad enough.

Kylo has all of that in the ledger plus the patricide of a beloved OT hero.

That’s a tough sell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As Prime Clone noted, that is indeed a good point. But the one thing in your phrasing that I see very differently is "last minute redemption." I think Vader's redemption started in ESB, as soon as he confirmed (for himself, on Bespin) that Luke was his son. I see him as having begun to change at that point. The Vader we see in ANH and most of ESB is quite different from the Vader we see throughout ROTJ, and even the end of ESB. He was no longer as ruthless and calculating.

At the end of ESB, when Piett and the others had failed to keep the Falcon from escaping via hyperspace, Vader acted very differently than he had when faced with the failure of his subordinates earlier in the film. Vader actually did a double-take at the window when the Falcon (with Luke) got away. His reaction wasn't fury; he put his hands behind his back and somberly walked away (without choking anyone out ).

Just before that, he had reached out to Luke via the Force - and not with an ultimatum, but with an offer. I think the Bespin duel was where Vader's redemption started. All throughout ROTJ, Vader is a lot less of a ruthless badass. Many fans have felt that was Lucas/Marquand dropping the ball with Vader's characterization, but I see it differently. That was Vader's inner conflict changing his behavior and mentality. I perceive the final redemptive act as a true culmination, rather than being "last minute."

Maybe this is just me giving myself an excuse for Vader's characterization in ROTJ lacking the power of his ANH and ESB persona, but I'm sticking with it because it genuinely makes sense to me.

Sorry, wasn't intended as a dig at you - I enjoy your thoughts. As I've said before, in all seriousness I'd take your views on the ST over Pablo Hidlago or Leland Chee.

I appreciate that. And as a semi-related side note: I don't disagree with your assessment of that Story Group at LFL being woefully underwhelming. Even in just their capacity as "continuity cops" there have been cracks and contradictions that have already left me both surprised and frustrated. That makes it all the more important that pertinent plot points be evident in the movies themselves (not left to the Story Group and the supplementary stories/materials they coordinate).

 

[a-dev]

As Prime Clone noted, that is indeed a good point. But the one thing in your phrasing that I see very differently is "last minute redemption." I think Vader's redemption started in ESB, as soon as he confirmed (for himself, on Bespin) that Luke was his son. I see him as having begun to change at that point. The Vader we see in ANH and most of ESB is quite different from the Vader we see throughout ROTJ, and even the end of ESB. He was no longer as ruthless and calculating.

At the end of ESB, when Piett and the others had failed to keep the Falcon from escaping via hyperspace, Vader acted very differently than he had when faced with the failure of his subordinates earlier in the film. Vader actually did a double-take at the window when the Falcon (with Luke) got away. His reaction wasn't fury; he put his hands behind his back and somberly walked away (without choking anyone out ).

Just before that, he had reached out to Luke via the Force - and not with an ultimatum, but with an offer. I think the Bespin duel was where Vader's redemption started. All throughout ROTJ, Vader is a lot less of a ruthless badass. Many fans have felt that was Lucas/Marquand dropping the ball with Vader's characterization, but I see it differently. That was Vader's inner conflict changing his behavior and mentality. I perceive the final redemptive act as a true culmination, rather than being "last minute."

Maybe this is just me giving myself an excuse for Vader's characterization in ROTJ lacking the power of his ANH and ESB persona, but I'm sticking with it because it genuinely makes sense to me.

If, in ROTJ, Vader had gone right back to stomping around barking orders and choking his officers to death in anger then his later redemptive act to save Luke would have been jarringly inconsistent.

And that moment at the end of Empire, the gazing out the window and the somber walk (back to his meditation chamber presumably) is the same Vader we see many times in ROTJ in silent contemplation.

 

[ZE_501]

[...]But the one thing in your phrasing that I see very differently is "last minute redemption." I think Vader's redemption started in ESB, as soon as he confirmed (for himself, on Bespin) that Luke was his son. I see him as having begun to change at that point. The Vader we see in ANH and most of ESB is quite different from the Vader we see throughout ROTJ, and even the end of ESB. He was no longer as ruthless and calculating.

I can give you that, but I think where I really stumble is the concept of 'redemption'. It becomes a philosophical question -- i.e. is there a point of no return? I believe that sometimes, people can change, but if you are Darth Vader you have:

1. Helped murder mentors and allies (e.g. Mace),
2. Murdered children (Tuskens and Jedi trainees),
3. Killed the defenseless (Non-combatant Tuskens, Separatist leaders; though it may be argued the Seps were evil, albeit non-combatants),
4. Actively supported a tyrannical and murderous fascist regime,
5. Stood by as party to planetary genocide (Alderaan at the very least, other planets by different means depending on the continuity) --
6. Murdered your own loyal subordinates,
7. Maimed your son.
8. Tortured and summarily executed many (presumably) while ordering the torture and execution of many others.

So he does one good thing and gets to be a happy force ghost?

There is a precedent for the *idea* of the most reprehensible amongst us coming back from it, in both secular and religious teachings, but it's a vexing question nonetheless.

Kylo is as 'bad' as Vader regardless that he wrings his hands and whines about it while he goes about murdering; he was also party to an even greater multi-planetary genocide and murdered his own father in cold blood, so any of his inner conflicts notwithstanding, he's already committed crimes on a grander scale than Grandpa ever managed.

How do you come back from that? Maybe alter course but 'redemption' seems like a tall order.

At the end of ESB, when Piett and the others had failed to keep the Falcon from escaping via hyperspace, Vader acted very differently than he had when faced with the failure of his subordinates earlier in the film. Vader actually did a double-take at the window when the Falcon (with Luke) got away. His reaction wasn't fury; he put his hands behind his back and somberly walked away (without choking anyone out ).

I always assumed he simply had a lot on his mind and couldn't be bothered to choke anyone out; laziness or inattention isn't repentance.

 

[xipotec]

If, in ROTJ, Vader had gone right back to stomping around barking orders and choking his officers to death in anger then his later redemptive act to save Luke would have been jarringly inconsistent.

And that moment at the end of Empire, the gazing out the window and the somber walk (back to his meditation chamber presumably) is the same Vader we see many times in ROTJ in silent contemplation.

I am in total agreement.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ZE_501]

That's a good point. But he's also been more obviously conflicted than Vader was.

See my screed above...yeah he's conflicted but he's still a murdering bad-guy doing murder-y stuff all the same. Just gets all fussy about it.

 

[ZE_501]

Widowed Mrs Antilles hates your guts.

LOLOLOL!

 

[Prime Clone]

Same here. It may just be you and me in the SW threads for the next couple of days.

AEG is out already in my city - bit of a waste that I might not even bother catching it on the big screen (like I didn't with IW).

 

[Choryujin]

It's hard to be completely disconnected from the internet. I've stayed away from any and all spoilers aside from the trailers.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I didn't

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

SW is greater than the MCU

 

[Otomofan]

Since everyone is going to be knee-deep in Endgame discussion this week, and SW talk will likely be sidelined, I want to post an overly-wordy theory as to how I think TROS will play out. I'm guessing this'll be like pissing in the ocean since it's AEG week, but maybe someone here would want to follow up with a theory as well so we can look back and see if any of us get close after TROS hits theaters.

To me, the ST has been the story of Ben/Kylo in much the same way that the OT had been of Anakin/Vader. In these two trilogies, Rey and Luke represent the heroic catalysts who shape and determine how Kylo and Vader ultimately end up. The cool thing about Palpatine being involved now (even as just a hologram sentinel - like he is in the novels and comics) is that the ST will be a part of something even bigger. But the roles of Kylo and Rey are still the driving points of the ST story within the saga, so those two and Palpatine are the key to figuring out how TROS might unfold.

Kylo's place in all of this might be made clearer by the unveiling of the Knights of Ren. I envision them as protectors of some sort of order named "Ren" that would be a lot like the Sith (maybe even connected *to* the Sith). It would probably be named after some ancient dark lord from the Unknown Regions (where Snoke is from - and he's the only one who has mentioned them). Kylo Ren would've been named as such because Snoke expected him to become the latest version of the original Ren. And the Knights of Ren were to accompany and protect Kylo as he gained his footing. They may have even been planted as students in Luke's academy in order to secretly help turn Ben Solo.

Perhaps Palpatine/Sidious was himself perceived as a descendant of Ren in the Unknown Regions during the reign of the Empire, and had thus secured the loyalty of people like Snoke. Palpatine uses this loyalty to his advantage to create a Contingency plan for rebuilding the Empire (if it were ever to fall) in those Unknown Regions. He records his plan, and uses a holographic version of himself to communicate it to those who will execute it (as we've already seen in novels/comics/Battlefront). Snoke eventually becomes the leader of this new movement (the FO), and singles out Ben Solo to carry out the Ren legacy. To Ben (and to Palpatine), it would be fulfilling the intended Anakin/Vader legacy (which might all just be the same thing anyway).

After Anakin/Vader's death, Ben Solo represented the next in line because Luke could never be turned. Luke would then remain the main obstacle - and the main target (as we saw in the premise of TFA) - after he trained Ben to learn the ways of the Force. But much like Palpatine had done before, Luke Skywalker would be underestimated. He has grown more powerful since becoming one with the Force, and will help undo all of Snoke and Palpatine's schemes. Luke will guide Rey, and help her fulfill her destiny. She will return to Ahch-To and recover relics from Luke (probably off screen during the time jump). One of those relics will spark the search for the new MacGuffin that will take up much of the TROS plot.

As explained in TLJ, Rey is the answer from the Light Side of the Force to meet the new challenge from the Dark Side (Kylo). So, I think she's a child of the Force, much like how Anakin was presented to us in TPM until we learned that Palpatine was behind his creation (that's official now, right?). If Palpatine could create Anakin, maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda created Rey (both of their voices are heard in her TFA Force vision, which might've been a clue all along). Rey is thus incredibly powerful and incorruptible. Unlike Luke, there is no conflict in Rey (because there is no Skywalker blood in her ). Her scumbag parents (to be poetically opposite of the kind and loving Shmi Skywalker) probably didn't know what to do with her, and may have even been frightened of her because they knew her conception was unnatural.

Rey has a higher calling, and her path is being laid out by the Force itself. When she encountered the lightsaber at Maz's, that was truly - as Obi-Wan put it - her "first steps." She was seeing the saga unfold, and learning her place in it. Rey is literally the Living Force, and she will carry out its will. She will triumph (duh ), and will extinguish the Dark Side threat that is being carried over from Palpatine. She will also play a pivotal role in the redemption of Kylo, and thereby ensure that the Skywalker name will always be associated with ultimately choosing the Light Side. Rey will go on to train a new order named "Skywalker" that will use the basic principles in the ancient Jedi texts, but enhanced and improved by lessons from the example and legacy of Luke and Leia Skywalker.

That's where I think we're headed. And I'd love to read anyone else's predictions/theories - or thoughts on why I'm wrong - in case any of you guys get AEG fatigue.

See this wall of text above? I didn't read it. But I respect it.

I guarantee you put more thought, logic, and emotion into that post than any of the writers of any of the sequel films. They simply don't care. They don't want "deep." They don't want audiences to think. They wants laser blasts and lightsaber hums and droids running around. It's what most of the audience wants to.

I commend your passion, but just like our old pal SNIKT, you're giving these people way, way too much credit and have more passion for the lore in your left pinky than they do in their whole bodies. This is a product. A cold, fabricated product, designed like a color-by-number to check off certain boxes.

If you love the product, really love it, I'm happy for you. I don't wanna **** on someone for honestly enjoying something. I reserve my ******** on people for the fakers. The people so desperate to signal to the world that they "care" so deeply, that they have emotion (they don't) that they make those cringe-inducing videos that literally made my balls pull up into my body.

I'm in this thread out of morbid curiosity, but I know there are are some of you that enjoy this stuff, deeply. And I mean it, I'm not trying to be snarky ******* like usual: I hope you love this movie and it's everything you want it to be.