Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[ScoutingForToys]

Re: Here so as not to further derail the Mando S3 Gideon thread...


To the contrary I feel Luke's appearances in Disney canon; Last Jedi and Mando was a disservice to his character, and ultimately served to diminish him. Where he came off as an also-ran, useless side character, completely degraded just to make the derivative Disney and now Favroniverse characters look better.

Although admittedly Luke's first Mando appearance, seeing the strong, hope-filled Luke we once knew and imagined into the future, was great!
Once it regiasters him saving Grogu, is just a reminder all his recruits will be killed. As per Disney Luke is the ultimate hopeless coward, and failed Jedi.
Realizing this, they had Luke quickly (LW&C nod aside) force Grogu an ultimatum, which betrayed everything Luke learned and was, and just as callously dispense with him, which again made Luke look like a complete failure, as per Disney canon.


How "This is the Way", so easily transitioned to "Lost it's Way"
Clearly "The Mandalorian" refers to Grogu, who will inevitably get his ridiculous tiny armor, then tame and ride the mighty Mythosaur!

Kidding, yeah I think Bo Katan has been set up for that and Mando (who literally sunk like a useless stone, in the Living Waters, and in his own show), is just there to watch her.

I think it's clear Filoni and his KK approved fem-force have become the main drive and focus of the franchise.
Luckily several of those characters are really great! And they are all better than Ezra.

Favreu should have bowed out with his fantastic S2 finally. Which for a glorious second, read as a new canon for a hopeful Luke and imagined future.

Then you are quickly reminded, oh right, Disney Luke is a crap different character.

LOL rant.

Yeah I agree.
Luke's appearance at the end of season 2 was a triumphant return.
His appearance in BoBF makes me think they don't know Luke at all.
That version of Luke is the guy who turns into failed old TLJ Luke.
The ROTJ Luke would understand the PT era dogmatic Jedi to be wrong. He'd understand that it was attachment that saved and redeemed his father.

 

[Khev]

Yeah I agree.
Luke's appearance at the end of season 2 was a triumphant return.
His appearance in BoBF makes me think they don't know Luke at all.
That version of Luke is the guy who turns into failed old TLJ Luke.
The ROTJ Luke would understand the PT era dogmatic Jedi to be wrong. He'd understand that it was attachment that saved and redeemed his father.

It is strange in retrospect.

OT Luke: chooses both friends and the Force

BOBF Luke to Grogu: "You only get to choose one of those things."

 

[ScoutingForToys]

It is strange in retrospect.

OT Luke: chooses both friends and the Force

BOBF Luke to Grogu: "You only get to choose one of those things."

I thought it might be Ahsoka's influence.
Luke thinks he's the last Jedi (as Yoda told him he was) then Ahsoka turns up. A pre-Empire Jedi trained by his father, who knew Yoda and Obi-Wan in his prime.
It must have been like she stepped out of myth.
She starts to fill his head with the old Jedi code and suddenly he decides he wants to rebuild the Jedi, literally, wanting to bring back the pre-Empire Jedi order, complete with dogmatic nonsense.
Ahsoka may have walked away from the Jedi but given her line about the danger of attachments during her episode in Mando season 2, it would seem she still follows the dogmatic ways.
And now she's filling Luke's head with silly ideas.

 

[Khev]

I thought it might be Ahsoka's influence.
Luke thinks he's the last Jedi (as Yoda told him he was) then Ahsoka turns up. A pre-Empire Jedi trained by his father, who knew Yoda and Obi-Wan in his prime.
It must have been like she stepped out of myth.
She starts to fill his head with the old Jedi code and suddenly he decides he wants to rebuild the Jedi, literally, wanting to bring back the pre-Empire Jedi order, complete with dogmatic nonsense.
Ahsoka may have walked away from the Jedi but given her line about the danger of attachments during her episode in Mando season 2, it would seem she still follows the dogmatic ways.
And now she's filling Luke's head with silly ideas.

Women!

 

[jye4ever]

Women!

I have a life sentence

 

[Mondragon]

I thought it might be Ahsoka's influence.
Luke thinks he's the last Jedi (as Yoda told him he was) then Ahsoka turns up. A pre-Empire Jedi trained by his father, who knew Yoda and Obi-Wan in his prime.
It must have been like she stepped out of myth.
She starts to fill his head with the old Jedi code and suddenly he decides he wants to rebuild the Jedi, literally, wanting to bring back the pre-Empire Jedi order, complete with dogmatic nonsense.
Ahsoka may have walked away from the Jedi but given her line about the danger of attachments during her episode in Mando season 2, it would seem she still follows the dogmatic ways.
And now she's filling Luke's head with silly ideas.

Luke who never followed Jedi dogma, whose instinct was to run towrds, and never let go or give up on his friends, family, or his father. Whose instinct was to to recognize both halves of what he was, and not fear it (thus not allowing it to control him), and simultaneously never gave up on becoming a Jedi (his way).
Who by following his choices and actions, successfully and visibly transformed and saved his father, where others had failed, thus bringing about the Return of the Jedi.
So why would he ignore his own life experience and choices, to instead follow what you are hypothetically attributing to Ahsoka? And force Grogu an ultimatum, he never once followed. In fact not following it is what defined him.
Disney's Luke is a betrayal of all that, and irreconcilable with the choices and learned experience of OT Luke.
They are not the same character. (or rather (for me) he can't reasonably be a progression of the same character)

 

[QuiGonFishing]

Re: Here so as not to further derail the Mando S3 Gideon thread...


To the contrary I feel Luke's appearances in Disney canon; Last Jedi and Mando was a disservice to his character, and ultimately served to diminish him. Where he came off as an also-ran, useless side character, completely degraded just to make the derivative Disney and now Favroniverse characters look better.

Although admittedly Luke's first Mando appearance, seeing the strong and hope-filled Luke we once knew, and imagined into the future, was great!
Once it registers that him saving Grogu, is just a reminder all his recruits will be killed. As per Disney Luke is the ultimate hopeless coward, and failed Jedi.
Realizing this, they had Luke quickly (LW&C nod aside) force Grogu an ultimatum, which betrayed everything Luke learned and was, and just as callously dispense with him, which again made Luke look like a complete failure, as per Disney canon.


How "This is the Way", so easily transitioned to "Lost it's Way"
Clearly "The Mandalorian" refers to Grogu, who will inevitably get his ridiculous tiny armor, then tame and ride the mighty Mythosaur!

Kidding, yeah I think Bo Katan has been set up for that and Mando (who literally sunk like a useless stone, in the Living Waters, and in his own show), is just there to watch her.

I think it's clear Filoni and his KK approved fem-force have become the main drive and focus of the franchise.
Luckily several of those characters are really great! And they are all better than Ezra.

Favreu should have bowed out with his fantastic S2 finally. Which for a glorious second, read as a new canon for a hopeful Luke and imagined future.

Then you are quickly reminded, oh right, Disney Luke is a crap different character.

LOL rant.

Well, I couldn’t agree with you more regarding the sequels in general and The Last Jedi in particular regarding the treatment of Luke. But two points on the depiction and story line of Luke in Mando and BOBF.

Grogu’s apparent choice of Din over Like plays in my personal narrative as placing another subtle nail in the coffin of the traditional Jedi dogma around the vilification of personal connections. Grogu’s connection to Din was not to be denied, and I think this may well have been a purposeful step of F&F to force Luke (the father of the new Jedi) to evolve around that old and immovable trope that ultimately created Darth Vader out of a boy who refused to denounce his feelings for his mother. Let’s face it, the Jedi have always been wrong on this point, at least to the extent that they attempted to make this law absolute. In other words, while it might make some level of sense not to become so entwined with every last person you meet or share a commonality with that you potentially become trapped in an ever present web of complex and conflicting loyalties and emotions, but surely connections between a mother and child and a few other major relationships can be preserved for the emotional health of all involved. So I see Grogu’s choice much less as a rejection of Luke himself as a refusal to disregard has uhhhhhh……humanity? Lol. And that his decision to return to Mando was not necessarily final or forever.

Also, building upon this idea of Grogu possibly or likely returning to Luke’s teachings (and this is likely weighted more towards wishful thinking than analysis) I’ve always taken the Mandoverse as being outside of the Disney Star Wars (KK) realm and instead as as independent take on the saga since it is being led by two ACTUAL Star Wars fans and not the personal experiment in wokeness and man hating championed by KK. As such, my narrative holds that the discovery of Grogu and inserting his presence into the saga was a universe shaking event which will be shown to alter the timeline and erase the ST. With Grogu’s training complete, Luke now has by his side a Force wielder whose raw Force power will come to rival or surpass that of Yoda himself. Luke will leverage Grogu’s strengths to further hone his own abilities and that duo will dispose of Ben Solo’s paltry threat before it even becomes one, thus irrecoverably altering Luke’s trajectory to become the true Grand Master he was always meant to become. And that Grand Master Skywalker will teach his students that connection to that which you love is not abhorrent to the Jedi, it is essential…

 

[ironwez20]

^ It just started bugging me lately that Owen and Beru could fight off the Third Sister but not a small detachment of Stormtroopers who were lousy shots. I know they were nine years older, but still...

Isn’t there some kinda theory that it wasn’t storm troopers but like an advanced trooper that did it? Like wasn’t it I think a flame trooper?

 

[ScoutingForToys]

Luke who never followed Jedi dogma, whose instinct was to run towrds, and never let go or give up on his friends, family, or his father. Whose instinct was to to recognize both halves of what was, and not fear it (thus not allowing it to control him), and simultaneously never gave up on becoming a Jedi (his way).
Who by following his choices and actions, successfully and visibly transformed and saved his father, where others had failed, thus bringing about the Return of the Jedi.
So why would he ignore his own life experience and choices, to instead follow what you are hypothetically attributing to Ahsoka? And force Grogu an ultimatum, he never once followed. In fact not following it is what defined him.
Disney's Luke is a betrayal of all that, and irreconcilable with the choices and learned experience of OT Luke.
They are not the same character. (or rather (for me) he can't reasonably be a progression of the same character)

I totally agree. BoBF Luke is not the same person as ROTJ Luke. My Ahsoka theory is just an attempt to explain his total change.
The real world reason of course is that Favreau and Filoni don't understand Luke and this is the Jake Skywalker of the Disney version of Star Wars.

 

[Mondragon]

Spoiler

Well, I couldn’t agree with you more regarding the sequels in general and The Last Jedi in particular regarding the treatment of Luke. But two points on the depiction and story line of Luke in Mando and BOBF.

Grogu’s apparent choice of Din over Like plays in my personal narrative as placing another subtle nail in the coffin of the traditional Jedi dogma around the vilification of personal connections.

Luke was that nail, from his vision of seeing himself in the place of his father, to his instinct to run towards his friends, sacrifice himself, instead of finishing his training, to the instinct to refuse to kill his father (or accept him as dead), and never letting go or giving up on him.

Grogu’s connection to Din was not to be denied,

As was Luke's connection to his friends, then his sister, and his father.
He was the embodiment of not giving up his connections, despite what the older Jedi hid from him, and wanted of him.

and I think this may well have been a purposeful step of F&F to force Luke (the father of the new Jedi) to evolve around that old and immovable trope that ultimately created Darth Vader out of a boy who refused to denounce his feelings for his mother.

Luke was the embodiment of the "evolution" not giving up on his loved ones, and becoming a Jedi his way. It's why he succeeded where the past Jedi had failed.

So I see Grogu’s choice much less as a rejection of Luke himself as a refusal to disregard has uhhhhhh……humanity? Lol. And that his decision to return to Mando was not necessarily final or forever.

Grogu of course missed his dad and chose to see him, that is not in question.
What's being challenged is the portrayal of Luke, forcing Grogu that ultimatum, one or the other.
(Unless it's later revealed he allowed Grogu to chose both) as Luke himself did.

Also, building upon this idea of Grogu possibly or likely returning to Luke’s teachings (and this is likely weighted more towards wishful thinking than analysis)

That scene, yes would change everything, meaning Luke allowed him to choose both.
Grogu reached out to connect to his own "kind", and also wanted to be with his father.
Although it calls in to question then why test, he already had both.

..., my narrative holds that the discovery of Grogu and inserting his presence into the saga was a universe shaking event which will be shown to alter the timeline and erase the ST.

The Disney TV shows are not erasing the Sequels, or setting up some secret (Savior Favreau implanted) parallel timeline, where they didn't ever happen. They are building to them, and reinforcing them.

With Grogu’s training complete, Luke now has by his side a Force wielder whose raw Force power will come to rival or surpass that of Yoda himself. Luke will leverage Grogu’s strengths to further hone his own abilities and that duo will dispose of Ben Solo’s paltry threat before it even becomes one, thus irrecoverably altering Luke’s trajectory to become the true Grand Master he was always meant to become. And that Grand Master Skywalker will teach his students that connection to that which you love is not abhorrent to the Jedi, it is essential…

Nice fic, that might have been OT Luke. That is not Disney's Luke, who is a complete betrayal of that.

 

[QuiGonFishing]

Spoiler

Luke was that nail, from his vision of seeing himself in the place of his father, to his instinct to run towards his friends, sacrifice himself, instead of finishing his training, to the instinct to refuse to kill his father (or accept him as dead), and never letting go or giving up on him.

As was Luke's connection to his friends, then his sister, and his father.
He was the embodiment of not giving up his connections, despite what the older Jedi hid from him, and wanted of him.

Luke was the embodiment of the "evolution" not giving up on his loved ones, and becoming a Jedi his way. It's why he succeeded where the past Jedi had failed.

Grogu of course missed his dad and chose to see him, that is not in question.
What's being challenged is the portrayal of Luke, forcing Grogu that ultimatum, one or the other.
(Unless it's later revealed he allowed Grogu to chose both) as Luke himself did.

That scene, yes would change everything, meaning Luke allowed him to choose both.
Grogu reached out to connect to his own "kind", and also wanted to be with his father.
Although it calls in to question then why test, he already had both.

The Disney TV shows are not erasing the Sequels, or setting up some secret (Savior Favreau implanted) parallel timeline, where they didn't ever happen. They are building to them, and reinforcing them.

Nice fic, that might have been OT Luke. That is not Disney's Luke, who is a complete betrayal of that.

For now!

Still have hope that the people who actually love and understand Star Wars will rise at Disney and reclaim the franchise unfettered by the toxic likes of KK and her minions…. Like the TRUE Luke, I am an eternal optimist!

 

[JAWS]

It is strange in retrospect.

OT Luke: chooses both friends and the Force

BOBF Luke to Grogu: "You only get to choose one of those things."

THIS!!!

 

[ZE_501]

Star Wars has always been a lark, and never had good writing, just style over substance. I love the OT but it's not well written and everything since has been progressively worse with some startling exceptions like Rogue One and Andor or the odd stand-outs that aren't particularly offensive (Solo, some of The Mandalorian etc).

I don't pay any mind to the really bad stuff and no longer jump through hoops fan-splaining and doing the writers' jobs for them; it just exists on a spectrum and I find it best not to dwell too deeply on the whacky philosophy that's continually thrown at the walls masquerading as well-thought out 'lore'.

It's all just fun and games that's slightly less goofy than ... say ... Harry Potter.

Of course, fandom is built on ... well ... you know the rest.

 

[jye4ever]

ANH/ESB are super well written ¯\_(ツ)_/

Shame on you ZE….

Spoiler

and a-dev lol

 

[a-dev]

ANH/ESB are super well written ¯\_(ツ)_/

Shame on you ZE….

Spoiler

and a-dev lol

They'd probably be fine except Lucas's self-retconning causing problems.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I don't see the inconsistency with the Jedi/attachments/Luke. I'm anything but a Filoni apologist, but Filoni is one who clearly understands this stuff and had countless conversations with Lucas to clarify whatever he wasn't certain about previously.

Jedi are allowed to love and have friends; in fact, they're encouraged to. They're supposed to love *all* beings. But they can't form attachments in the sense that "attachment" is merely another way of saying "possessive love." It's a very specific distinction, and it's rooted in real-world philosophy.

Jedi (and any enlightened human beings in real life) have to be able to let go of people and objects they love. Possessive *attachment* is dangerous. In Star Wars, possessive attachment is a one-way street to the dark side. If a Jedi possessively loves someone, he will fear losing that person - and this fear will cause the Jedi to be influenced by the dark side of the Force and become dangerous (like Sith).

The prequel Jedi didn't fail because of their dogmatic ways and beliefs/teachings. They failed because they abandoned their principles and got involved in war. "Wars not make one great." "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you."

In Luke's case, look no further than when he was on the brink of falling to the dark side at the end of ROTJ. What caused that? What was it that made him snap before collecting himself and throwing away the weapon he was about to murder his father with? If you answer that objectively and honestly, you'll see that the lesson of possessive attachment has been consistent in both Lucas trilogies (and beyond).

"And sacrifice Han and Leia?" "If you value what they fight for, Yes!" Yoda wasn't wrong, and wasn't meant to come across as wrong. Many fans think Luke was being shown as heroic for disobeying Yoda to go "save" his friends when, in reality, Lucas was portraying Luke's decision as part of his pre-Jedi failures. He goes on to fail further at Bespin. Just listen to the director's commentary; read the interviews. We don't have to like his intent, but we at least shouldn't misrepresent it.

Luke didn't succeed by being some kind of "new" type of Jedi (that's just EU nonsense). He succeeded by finally embracing the values of a true Jedi and reminding Anakin what that looks like. He didn't save his father by possessively trying to control what happens to loved ones and by holding on; he saved him by letting go.

 

[ZE_501]

ANH/ESB are super well written ¯\_(ツ)_/

Shame on you ZE….

Spoiler

and a-dev lol

The broad strokes were a good take on the hero's journey and both scripts had some cool moments, but the plotting, writing and dialogue has always been a bit dubious LOL

 

[ZE_501]

Jedi (and any enlightened human beings in real life) have to be able to let go of people and objects they love. Possessive *attachment* is dangerous. In Star Wars, possessive attachment is a one-way street to the dark side. If a Jedi possessively loves someone, he will fear losing that person - and this fear will cause the Jedi to be influenced by the dark side of the Force and become dangerous (like Sith). {...snip...}

"And sacrifice Han and Leia?" "If you value what they fight for, Yes!" Yoda wasn't wrong, and wasn't meant to come across as wrong. Many fans think Luke was being shown as heroic for disobeying Yoda to go "save" his friends when, in reality, Lucas was portraying Luke's decision as part of his pre-Jedi failures. He goes on to fail further at Bespin. Just listen to the director's commentary; read the interviews. We don't have to like his intent, but we at least shouldn't misrepresent it.

Within the context of Star Wars it all works, because it's a very simple story and I agree for the most part with the above analysis. It neatly disposes of any convoluted explanation or having to extrapolate the writer's intentions via fan-splaining.

If you look at certain real-world Eastern philosophical traditions they would acknowledge the reality that Luke was placed in a situation without 'good' choices. One endangered the cause, the other sacrificed his friends and ran counter to his compassion for them.

You could argue that outcomes from either choice left him open to the Dark Side -- one being through being unprepared and succumbing to temptation and the other being a need for vengeance. But it played out as it did.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Within the context of Star Wars it all works, because it's a very simple story and I agree for the most part with the above analysis. It neatly disposes of any convoluted explanation or having to extrapolate the writer's intentions via fan-splaining.

If you look at certain real-world Eastern philosophical traditions they would acknowledge the reality that Luke was placed in a situation without 'good' choices. One endangered the cause, the other sacrificed his friends and ran counter to his compassion for them.

You could argue that outcomes from either choice left him open to the Dark Side -- one being through being unprepared and succumbing to temptation and the other being a need for vengeance. But it played out as it did.

The characterization of a "good" choice is too complex to get into here with all of its nuances. But every option, including Luke's, can instead be broken down to a "best" choice versus the "inferior" choice. In ESB, it's basically this: Luke being fully prepared to truly help and acting only when ready (with greater wisdom, skill, and mastery) versus being impatient and short-sighted, thereby doing exactly what the evil antagonist wanted all along and rescuing no one in the process (ultimately needing rescue himself instead).

If the films didn't make it clear enough, we have tons of filmmaker explanations on this (and virtually every) subject. Lucas is clear about the better choice versus the inferior one. And it plays out as such in the films. Luke is learning; making bad judgment calls along the way, but those failures inform him. Yoda's teachings about the better Jedi way are reinforced as he stumbles. It took Luke nearly the full length of three movies to figure it out, but it clicked for him in time to finally make the best choice. His ascendancy moment had him declaring, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Star Wars is told from the philosophical point of view of the man who made it. But fans watch the movies at a young age and often attach their own preconceived views to the character motives and resulting virtues. When they grow up, they hold on to their personal interpretations - and sometimes in direct conflict with the spelled-out intentions Lucas had.

Jedi embody an amalgamation of Eastern and Western teachings, but it's the core principles from Eastern philosophies such as Taoism that are very pronounced and most influential. Embrace those teachings or not, the Jedi do reflect such specific real-world influences with plotted-out intention. Luke was supposed to be the last living Jedi, groomed to return the Order back to those original precepts that allowed them (and the galaxy) to thrive for a thousand generations. It's largely about attaining selflessness, a balanced and sober worldview, understanding fundamental universal connectivity, and no one being above it all.

 

[jye4ever]

Why couldn’t I had been a PT Jedi on my wedding day.