Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

The OP referred to a strong title such as Empire Strikes Back!!!! I shiver when i think how GL came up with Attack of the Clones, its just so weak in so many ways. If you look into the EU and the epilogue to AotC and the prologue to RotS they have much better titles.

How is The Empire Strikes Back a better title than Attack of the Clones? They're both equally cheesy and ridiculous. Perfect at evoking the old time adventure stories GL grew up with which inspired the sage. I am crossing my fingers for the word "Peril" or "Terror" in the next trilogy. Both words evoke that old time adventure feeling the rest of the saga has.

What is up with this last part having better titles in the EU? I'm confused. The novelizations are called AotC and RotS also, are they not?

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I think the big scene will be the Falcon taking of again with the big four inside. Wicked.

Luke han, Leia and threepio?

 

[hunnipot85]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Luke han, Leia and threepio?

I think the big four includes Chewie over the droids.

 

[TURINS~BANE]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Yes...

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

But Chewie is dead.... Sooooo.... lol

I don't expect Chewie to be dead. I'd be surprised if the NJO and everything after it wasn't tweaked or completely abolished. I think everything leading up to it could and should remain intact. Even the crappy stories won't really hurt the big picture. I'm sure "The Bounty Hunter Wars" has its fans. Why piss off those three guys?

 

[TURINS~BANE]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

you cant have Han Solo without chewie..

 

[automaton]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

many of us looked at "the Empire Strikes Back" with 10 year old eyes... you are right, the title "Attack of the Clones" is really no different, it is we who have changed.

How is The Empire Strikes Back a better title than Attack of the Clones? They're both equally cheesy and ridiculous. Perfect at evoking the old time adventure stories GL grew up with which inspired the sage. I am crossing my fingers for the word "Peril" or "Terror" in the next trilogy. Both words evoke that old time adventure feeling the rest of the saga has.

What is up with this last part having better titles in the EU? I'm confused. The novelizations are called AotC and RotS also, are they not?

 

[Magpie 7]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

many of us looked at "the Empire Strikes Back" with 10 year old eyes... you are right, the title "Attack of the Clones" is really no different, it is we who have changed.

Well the Empire did strike back, so that was an entirely relevant title. But wouldn't something like An/The Emerging Force or The End of Peace be more in line with those serials from the 40's and 50's that inspired GL? They're all cheesy but at least they have a sense of perspective in what direction the film was attempting to go. In 1982, Lawrence Kasdan tried to influence GL into changing Return of the Jedi to Revenge of the Jedi because he reckoned 'Return' is weaker than 'Revenge'..... so who are we to argue

 

[Kamandi]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

George Lucas back in 1982: "I'm calling the next one Revenge of the Jedi"

Fanboy: "Wow! I can't wait! That's a really great title!!!"

Lucas: "It is?!? Sh-t I'll have to change it then..."

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Well the Empire did strike back, so that was an entirely relevant title. But wouldn't something like An/The Emerging Force or The End of Peace be more in line with those serials from the 40's and 50's that inspired GL? They're all cheesy but at least they have a sense of perspective in what direction the film was attempting to go. In 1982, Lawrence Kasdan tried to influence GL into changing Return of the Jedi to Revenge of the Jedi because he reckoned 'Return' is weaker than 'Revenge'..... so who are we to argue

Revenge is not an action to be taken by a Jedi. The title of RotJ is great because it works as a return of the Jedi Order with Luke becoming a full-fledged Jedi Knight by the end of the film and it also represents Anakin's return into the light from the dark by the film's end. And the whole history with "Revenge" is an interesting misdirection with Luke dressed all in black like Vader, Luke force gripping baddies like Vader, and the Emperor tempting him and taunting him. It kept us on the edge of our seat. What would happen? Would Luke try to take revenge on the Sith? He did. Momentarily he twice messed up an engaged the Sith by losing his cool. But he overcame his feelings of anger and rage and told the Emperor off. He'd rather die than falling like his father. How epic was that?!

As for "Attack of the Clones," it has clones that come and attack and begin a big war. Your titles sound dull and boring in comparison. Think about when you were a kid. You have enough money to go see a movie with some friends. Do you go to "The Emerging Force," "The End of Peace," or "Attack of the Clones?" Which sounds epic and full of action and not a snooze fest? I do think your titles describe how awful AotC turned out being, but the title itself is one of the PT's greatest strengths in my opinion. I loved it the moment I heard it.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Why can't revenge be taken by a Jedi, pre-1999 prequels?

Revenge is the better title. Revenge is to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, a retribution, which is exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda were doing. I seem to recall Yoda telling Luke that the only way to win and become a true Jedi was to off his dad. He basically tells him, "ya gotta go kill your daddy-o and the Emperor" before he dies. That's not exactly good or compassionate, certainly not virtuous. Even Ben wants Luke to do it and tells him it's the only way. So? Realistically, shouldn't they be telling Luke to turn the other cheek? Shouldn't they be telling him that he should try and redeem his father instead of killing him? Wouldn't that be the "Jedi way"?

The Jedi in the original trilogy weren't these weird monk dudes that couldn't have sex, get married or all that other weird **** that the prequels brought in. They were warriors, knights. Why couldn't they seek retribution against the Emperor and Vader for the atrocities they committed? There's only three Jedi left because of them. "Revenge of the Jedi" is the edgier, better title in my opinion.

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I think the big four includes Chewie over the droids.

Cept Chewie's dead. and nobody's been talking to mayhew.

 

[iron.jedi83]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Why can't revenge be taken by a Jedi, pre-1999 prequels?

Revenge is the better title. Revenge is to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, a retribution, which is exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda were doing. I seem to recall Yoda telling Luke that the only way to win and become a true Jedi was to off his dad. He basically tells him, "ya gotta go kill your daddy-o and the Emperor" before he dies. That's not exactly good or compassionate, certainly not virtuous. Even Ben wants Luke to do it and tells him it's the only way. So? Realistically, shouldn't they be telling Luke to turn the other cheek? Shouldn't they be telling him that he should try and redeem his father instead of killing him? Wouldn't that be the "Jedi way"?

The Jedi in the original trilogy weren't these weird monk dudes that couldn't have sex, get married or all that other weird **** that the prequels brought in. They were warriors, knights. Why couldn't they seek retribution against the Emperor and Vader for the atrocities they committed? There's only three Jedi left because of them. "Revenge of the Jedi" is the edgier, better title in my opinion.

Yoda told Luke to confront Vader not kill him. it was Obi-Wan who said Luke had to kill Vader because Obi-Wan thought Vader couldnt be redeemed.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Yeah, confront and do what exactly? Shake hands with him after it's all said and done? The reason Ben and Yoda didn't tell Luke the truth initially is because they wanted him to train, complete his training and dispatch of Vader. Yoda even says it's unfortunate that Luke ran off so early to face him when Luke questions Yoda.

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Yeah, confront and do what exactly? Shake hands with him after it's all said and done? The reason Ben and Yoda didn't tell Luke the truth initially is because they wanted him to train, complete his training and dispatch of Vader. Yoda even says it's unfortunate that Luke ran off so early to face him when Luke questions Yoda.

To confront him, and Bring him to Justice, to call him to account for what he had done. Not to seek revenge.

Becuase revenge dosn't fit with the concept of gaurdians of peace and justice. Revenge is a dark emotion, fuled by revenge.

What Yoda and ben were advocating was that Luke Seek to confront Vader, and seek to bring to to JUSTICE. NOT Revenge.

The difference between Revenge and Justice is motivation.


Think in these terms. Does batman do what he does in gotham for revenge, or for justice?
the jedi are no different. YES, unlike batman, they use lethal force. The jedi are more akin to Texas Rangers of the old west. But the point still stands.

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Why can't revenge be taken by a Jedi, pre-1999 prequels?

Because Yoda essentially tells Luke not to do that in ESB.

Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".

Revenge is the better title. Revenge is to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, a retribution

Don't confuse revenge with justice. Revenge is predominantly emotional; justice is primarily rational. Revenge is a personal act of punishment; justice is an impersonal and impartial action. Revenge is about retaliation for some wrong committed; justice is about restoring balance to the community. Does our government have a Department of Revenge? No. We instead have a Department of Justice. And here's a direct quote from the OT talking about a Jedi's role and purpose.

Obi-Wan: For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire.

which is exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda were doing. I seem to recall Yoda telling Luke that the only way to win and become a true Jedi was to off his dad. He basically tells him, "ya gotta go kill your daddy-o and the Emperor" before he dies. That's not exactly good or compassionate, certainly not virtuous. Even Ben wants Luke to do it and tells him it's the only way. So? Realistically, shouldn't they be telling Luke to turn the other cheek? Shouldn't they be telling him that he should try and redeem his father instead of killing him? Wouldn't that be the "Jedi way"?

I really want to address the bolded part but my break is almost up. Probably will get to it later tonight. Nice discussion. But I still prefer the title that was released from a literary point of view. I love double meanings and word play.

EDIT - Lerath beat me to it. It took me too long to write this up just right. But still, yeah. You're wrong to say Revenge is the better title. I don't think Luke took revenge on anyone by the movie's end. Did he?

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Don't confuse revenge with justice. Revenge is predominantly emotional; justice is primarily rational. Revenge is a personal act of punishment; justice is an impersonal and impartial action. Revenge is about retaliation for some wrong committed; justice is about restoring balance to the community. Does our government have a Department of Revenge? No. We instead have a Department of Justice. And here's a direct quote from the OT talking about a Jedi's role and purpose.

*recalls how violently, and in complete anger, Luke beat Vader down*

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

*recalls how Luke saw the error of his ways and threw his weapon down and announced he would not turn*

Luke succumbed to his emotions before when he Force pulled his saber from the Emperor's Throne and tried to strike him down there. They were tempting him. He almost gave in but stopped at the last moment. How epic was it to see the wires sticking out of Vader's hand and Luke looking down at his own. His actions in ESB and his actions in RotJ would lead him right to where Vader had ended up under the Emperor's control.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

*recalls how Luke saw the error of his ways and threw his weapon down and announced he would not turn*

AFTER defeating Vader, and even then, it was only after the Emperor told him to give in, and suggested he join the Empire.

The music is an excellent clue. It's not heroic, it's dark and haunting.

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

But he doesn't kill him. He didn't take his revenge on anyone.