Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)
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lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
It CAN be seen that way. The Fight leading up to THAT MOMENT was Revenge. That was Luke giving into his hate and his emotion. But it's not the end result. We're not asking whither luke saught revenge, but wither or not Revenge is right for a jedi to be seeking. It's not.
Becuase the ENTIRE point of that scene is luke is meant to be following in his father's footsteps. He's given in to his anger, he is racing towards the edge, and NEARLY scummbs to hate. NEARLY falls over... and stops just short of the deed. It's a haunting, chilling moment, when luke sees, Not his Enemy, but his OWN FATHER, beaten, and undone before him... And realizes how much like his father he Truely is... Right down to the robotic hand....
And He STOPS. He comes back from the edge. Stopping just short of vengence. In THAT MOMENT we witness the Return of the Jedi.
AFTER defeating Vader, and even then, it was only after the Emperor told him to give in, and suggested he join the Empire.
The music is an excellent clue. It's not heroic, it's dark and haunting.
Because defeating someone and maiming them isn't revenge?
It CAN be seen that way. The Fight leading up to THAT MOMENT was Revenge. That was Luke giving into his hate and his emotion. But it's not the end result. We're not asking whither luke saught revenge, but wither or not Revenge is right for a jedi to be seeking. It's not.
Becuase the ENTIRE point of that scene is luke is meant to be following in his father's footsteps. He's given in to his anger, he is racing towards the edge, and NEARLY scummbs to hate. NEARLY falls over... and stops just short of the deed. It's a haunting, chilling moment, when luke sees, Not his Enemy, but his OWN FATHER, beaten, and undone before him... And realizes how much like his father he Truely is... Right down to the robotic hand....
And He STOPS. He comes back from the edge. Stopping just short of vengence. In THAT MOMENT we witness the Return of the Jedi.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Yeah, I'm not sure why "revenge" is being shown in such a negative light here. It's not always a bad or negative thing. Look at Luke in that video, he's definitely channeling anger there, that's how he defeats Vader, but it's balanced. He doesn't give in at the end. As for Batman leath, don't most interpretations of the character think of themselves as "vengeance"? I am vengeance, I am the night, I am Batman? Aren't there versions of Batman that vow to "war" on all criminals to symbolically avenge his parents' deaths? Does that make that character a bad or evil person?
That's exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda are doing. Knights, Samurai, Ninjas, etc. all have stories where they exact revenge in retaliation of some injustice? Are Jedi not similar to those kinds of warriors.
There's nothing wrong with this,
Because defeating someone and maiming them isn't revenge?
Yeah, I'm not sure why "revenge" is being shown in such a negative light here. It's not always a bad or negative thing. Look at Luke in that video, he's definitely channeling anger there, that's how he defeats Vader, but it's balanced. He doesn't give in at the end. As for Batman leath, don't most interpretations of the character think of themselves as "vengeance"? I am vengeance, I am the night, I am Batman? Aren't there versions of Batman that vow to "war" on all criminals to symbolically avenge his parents' deaths? Does that make that character a bad or evil person?
That's exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda are doing. Knights, Samurai, Ninjas, etc. all have stories where they exact revenge in retaliation of some injustice? Are Jedi not similar to those kinds of warriors.
There's nothing wrong with this,
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Vader defeated Luke and amputated his hand in ESB. Luke gets revenge by doing the exact same to his father in ROTJ and stops AFTERWARDS. Whether he realizes it's wrong or not after the fact, is irrelevant. It's revenge.
Vader defeated Luke and amputated his hand in ESB. Luke gets revenge by doing the exact same to his father in ROTJ and stops AFTERWARDS. Whether he realizes it's wrong or not after the fact, is irrelevant. It's revenge.
lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
On batman comment. SAYING it is one thing. That's all theatre. 1/2 batmans's sthick is scaring the pants off crooks.
BUT When he's asked point blank why he does what he does, he generaly says so that NO ONE ever has to be afraid. so that no one will ever know the pain he has expierenced, have to go through what he went through.
Don't confuse the two, as luke allmost does. Revenge is not justice.
Yeah, I'm not sure why "revenge" is being shown in such a negative light here. It's not always a bad or negative thing. Look at Luke in that video, he's definitely channeling anger there, that's how he defeats Vader, but it's balanced. He doesn't give in at the end. As for Batman leath, don't most interpretations of the character think of themselves as "vengeance"? I am vengeance, I am the night, I am Batman? Aren't there versions of Batman that vow to "war" on all criminals to symbolically avenge his parents' deaths? Does that make that character a bad or evil person?
That's exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda are doing. Knights, Samurai, Ninjas, etc. all have stories where they exact revenge in retaliation of some injustice? Are Jedi not similar to those kinds of warriors.
There's nothing wrong with this,
On batman comment. SAYING it is one thing. That's all theatre. 1/2 batmans's sthick is scaring the pants off crooks.
BUT When he's asked point blank why he does what he does, he generaly says so that NO ONE ever has to be afraid. so that no one will ever know the pain he has expierenced, have to go through what he went through.
Don't confuse the two, as luke allmost does. Revenge is not justice.
lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
It's when he realises that it's taking him down the same path his father went down, that he stops.
Jedi don't seek revenge. They Can't . That leads to the Dark side. It takes Luke REalising this after confronting Vader, for the Jedi to return to the Galaxy.
That point was never in contention. I happen to agree with you. LUKE WAS getting revenge...
It's when he realises that it's taking him down the same path his father went down, that he stops.
Jedi don't seek revenge. They Can't . That leads to the Dark side. It takes Luke REalising this after confronting Vader, for the Jedi to return to the Galaxy.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Not to mention Vader throwing Palpatine into the abyss and pretty much redeeming himself, getting to be a Jedi force ghost or whatever.
I don't see how it's even debatable that the Jedi are essentially "getting theirs in" by the end. Vader hunted down and killed all those Jedi, killed Ben, chopped off Luke's hand, etc. Then there's the Emperor who is the embodiment of evil. Ben and Yoda want Luke to take care of and confront Vader and the Emperor. The Jedi get their revenge.
How is "Return" appropriate exactly? What are they returning from? It's always just Ben, Yoda and Luke. It ends with Luke and three Jedi ghosts. How did they return? Unless the title applies to Vader, which I guess is kind of true but I always thought the title was relevant to Luke and Co.? If that's the case, revenge could apply to Vader too.
Not to mention Vader throwing Palpatine into the abyss and pretty much redeeming himself, getting to be a Jedi force ghost or whatever.
I don't see how it's even debatable that the Jedi are essentially "getting theirs in" by the end. Vader hunted down and killed all those Jedi, killed Ben, chopped off Luke's hand, etc. Then there's the Emperor who is the embodiment of evil. Ben and Yoda want Luke to take care of and confront Vader and the Emperor. The Jedi get their revenge.
How is "Return" appropriate exactly? What are they returning from? It's always just Ben, Yoda and Luke. It ends with Luke and three Jedi ghosts. How did they return? Unless the title applies to Vader, which I guess is kind of true but I always thought the title was relevant to Luke and Co.? If that's the case, revenge could apply to Vader too.
lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Becuase by willingly seeking Revenge, even pushing luke in that direction. Ben and Yoda are no longer truely jedi themselves. They are impure members of the old gaurd. It takes the death of all the old, some might say failed jedi ( including vader, with his final act of vengence) before the Jedi return to their original ideals, and nobility. I don't see how anyone CAN'T see that, or how it's even debateable.
Becuase by willingly seeking Revenge, even pushing luke in that direction. Ben and Yoda are no longer truely jedi themselves. They are impure members of the old gaurd. It takes the death of all the old, some might say failed jedi ( including vader, with his final act of vengence) before the Jedi return to their original ideals, and nobility. I don't see how anyone CAN'T see that, or how it's even debateable.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
What? Batman beats the living **** out of criminals. It's not always "JUSTICE", how can it be? Especially the thugs he beats down that have to drink their food through staws. Surely there's a healthier way of going about this?
If the character wholeheartedly believes in justice, then why the hell is he a vigilante? I know Begins tries to dabble in this, but the concept gets murkier and murkier the more it's touched upon.
That's one of the big philosophical questions isn't it? Revenge vs. Justice? The line between them isn't always so clear cut.
I'm sorry, but you have two Jedi Knight's telling Luke that he has to go and confront Vader and kill him and defeat the Emperor. Is that really justice? Now, Luke man's up and makes an heroic, noble decision. He's one of the good guys. But dabbling in revenge isn't always a bad thing. Let's face it, Vader and Palps aren't "brought to justice". Luke ****s Vader up and Vader grips Palpatines spine and throws him down a shaft to his death. There's nothing peaceful about it. Revenge is deadly if you let it eat away at you and obsess over it, sure, but what goes on in the movie isn't even deadly.
Besides, "Revenge" is a cooler, edgier title which is the crux of this argument. Even if you don't think Luke or the others dabbled in it, they still got their Revenge. An eye for an eye, a hand for a mechanical hand. Vader and Palpatine are dead for the atrocities they committed. The Jedi got their revenge (like a Knight, Samurai, etc.) It's not bad calling it what it is. Revenge is only deadly if you let it take control of you, which Luke doesn't do. He redeemed his Pa and overthrew the Emperor. The end.
What? Batman beats the living **** out of criminals. It's not always "JUSTICE", how can it be? Especially the thugs he beats down that have to drink their food through staws. Surely there's a healthier way of going about this?
If the character wholeheartedly believes in justice, then why the hell is he a vigilante? I know Begins tries to dabble in this, but the concept gets murkier and murkier the more it's touched upon.
That's one of the big philosophical questions isn't it? Revenge vs. Justice? The line between them isn't always so clear cut.
I'm sorry, but you have two Jedi Knight's telling Luke that he has to go and confront Vader and kill him and defeat the Emperor. Is that really justice? Now, Luke man's up and makes an heroic, noble decision. He's one of the good guys. But dabbling in revenge isn't always a bad thing. Let's face it, Vader and Palps aren't "brought to justice". Luke ****s Vader up and Vader grips Palpatines spine and throws him down a shaft to his death. There's nothing peaceful about it. Revenge is deadly if you let it eat away at you and obsess over it, sure, but what goes on in the movie isn't even deadly.
Besides, "Revenge" is a cooler, edgier title which is the crux of this argument. Even if you don't think Luke or the others dabbled in it, they still got their Revenge. An eye for an eye, a hand for a mechanical hand. Vader and Palpatine are dead for the atrocities they committed. The Jedi got their revenge (like a Knight, Samurai, etc.) It's not bad calling it what it is. Revenge is only deadly if you let it take control of you, which Luke doesn't do. He redeemed his Pa and overthrew the Emperor. The end.
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
I can solve this. The movie should've been called Return to the Revenge of the Jedi.
There are dozens of examples of Jedi getting revenge in the PT anyway, so this point is pretty much moot.
I can solve this. The movie should've been called Return to the Revenge of the Jedi.
There are dozens of examples of Jedi getting revenge in the PT anyway, so this point is pretty much moot.
lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
this.
We're divided, and none of us are going to budge on our opinons. one of the great things about the films is how much they;re open to interpretation.
what you get from it, is as equaly valid as what i get.
Hell, someone could say that to them, It seems as if yoda is intentionaly trying to tempt luke by using reverse psychology in ESB, knowing that they might loose him, but that He can no longer teach Luke, and it's time For him to learn from vader.
I can solve this. The movie should've been called Return to the Revenge of the Jedi.
There are dozens of examples of Jedi getting revenge in the PT anyway, so this point is pretty much moot.
this.We're divided, and none of us are going to budge on our opinons. one of the great things about the films is how much they;re open to interpretation.
what you get from it, is as equaly valid as what i get.
Hell, someone could say that to them, It seems as if yoda is intentionaly trying to tempt luke by using reverse psychology in ESB, knowing that they might loose him, but that He can no longer teach Luke, and it's time For him to learn from vader.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Or maybe Lucas can make a new movie that utilizes "Revenge" in the title and salvage that coolness . . . . oh wait.
Also, the concept of the "Jedi" clearly changed from the 70s/80s of the OT to the lore that the prequels started later on. In the OT, they were guardians and peace keepers, sure. By the PT though? No marriage, weird codes, etc. The Sith are even stranger. And let's face it, even with those changes, it's not like Yoda and Obi-Wan are seeking justice when they go to confront Palps and Anakin. They both are out to put their head on a silver platter. In fact, Yoda seems angrier and more of a wise *** about it than Obi-Wan does. Instead of Obi-Wan giving Anakin a mercy kill, he leaves him to ****ing rot and burn to death. Ohhhh yeah, that's gallant.
I always thought Ben, Yoda and Luke were pure of heart, even if they dabbled in what their universe considers sin. That means revenge. Revenge isn't always killing brutally, it's not always deadly.
I can solve this. The movie should've been called Return to the Revenge of the Jedi.
Or maybe Lucas can make a new movie that utilizes "Revenge" in the title and salvage that coolness . . . . oh wait.
Also, the concept of the "Jedi" clearly changed from the 70s/80s of the OT to the lore that the prequels started later on. In the OT, they were guardians and peace keepers, sure. By the PT though? No marriage, weird codes, etc. The Sith are even stranger. And let's face it, even with those changes, it's not like Yoda and Obi-Wan are seeking justice when they go to confront Palps and Anakin. They both are out to put their head on a silver platter. In fact, Yoda seems angrier and more of a wise *** about it than Obi-Wan does. Instead of Obi-Wan giving Anakin a mercy kill, he leaves him to ****ing rot and burn to death. Ohhhh yeah, that's gallant.
I always thought Ben, Yoda and Luke were pure of heart, even if they dabbled in what their universe considers sin. That means revenge. Revenge isn't always killing brutally, it's not always deadly.
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
The Jedi's code of abstinence from love, marriage, etc., might very well be why the favored padawans were boys, which might also explain the outcast Jedi.
Or maybe Lucas can make a new movie that utilizes "Revenge" in the title and salvage that coolness . . . . oh wait.
Also, the concept of the "Jedi" clearly changed from the 70s/80s of the OT to the lore that the prequels started later on. In the OT, they were guardians and peace keepers, sure. By the PT though? No marriage, weird codes, etc. The Sith are even stranger. And let's face it, even with those changes, it's not like Yoda and Obi-Wan are seeking justice when they go to confront Palps and Anakin. They both are out to put their head on a silver platter. In fact, Yoda seems angrier and more of a wise *** about it than Obi-Wan does. Instead of Obi-Wan giving Anakin a mercy kill, he leaves him to ****ing rot and burn to death. Ohhhh yeah, that's gallant.
I always thought Ben, Yoda and Luke were pure of heart, even if they dabbled in what their universe considers sin. That means revenge. Revenge isn't always killing brutally, it's not always deadly.
The Jedi's code of abstinence from love, marriage, etc., might very well be why the favored padawans were boys, which might also explain the outcast Jedi.
stshammgod
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
This is it exactly. Well said!
This is it exactly. Well said!
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Yeah, I'll never understand that one.
I remember the teaser poster for Episode II and thinking, "huh, a Jedi can't know love, WTF?" Then I remembered this was the prequels, and that Jedi were the same organization that told a 9 year old kid that it was somehow wrong to miss his mommy.
Weird, weird ****. When I was a kid, for some reason when I thought of "Jedi" watching the Original Trilogy, I thought of them as this,
Not this,
I mean, didn't even King Arthur and the Knights of the round table screw around with everyone's mother, daughter and sister?
The Jedi's code of abstinence from love, marriage, etc., might very well be why the favored padawans were boys, which might also explain the outcast Jedi.
Yeah, I'll never understand that one.I remember the teaser poster for Episode II and thinking, "huh, a Jedi can't know love, WTF?" Then I remembered this was the prequels, and that Jedi were the same organization that told a 9 year old kid that it was somehow wrong to miss his mommy.
Weird, weird ****. When I was a kid, for some reason when I thought of "Jedi" watching the Original Trilogy, I thought of them as this,
Not this,
I mean, didn't even King Arthur and the Knights of the round table screw around with everyone's mother, daughter and sister?
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Yeah, I always imagined that Obi-wan had ****ed his way across the galaxy. Certainly he seemed more than a little familiar with most of the talent in the Cantina.
"wanna see my laser sword?"
Yeah, I always imagined that Obi-wan had ****ed his way across the galaxy. Certainly he seemed more than a little familiar with most of the talent in the Cantina.
"wanna see my laser sword?"
lerath666
Super Freak
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
kinda agree there. i never got the " no family" thing. Hell, even historicly, the catholic church only outlawed wives becuse of all the money the families of the priests were costing it.
kinda agree there. i never got the " no family" thing. Hell, even historicly, the catholic church only outlawed wives becuse of all the money the families of the priests were costing it.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Yeah, basically the equivalent of Cpt. Kirk.
I could totally see "Old Ben" boinking everyone from Aunt Beru to the Tonnika sisters (and every species in between) back in his heyday.
Yeah, basically the equivalent of Cpt. Kirk.
I could totally see "Old Ben" boinking everyone from Aunt Beru to the Tonnika sisters (and every species in between) back in his heyday.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
Can you maim someone by chopping off a fake apendage that was there because they were already maimed?
Because defeating someone and maiming them isn't revenge?
Can you maim someone by chopping off a fake apendage that was there because they were already maimed?
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread
I think Qui Gon and Schmi had something going on.
I think Qui Gon and Schmi had something going on.
