Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[Darthrazz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Can you maim someone by chopping off a fake apendage that was there because they were already maimed?

Good point.....I wonder if Vader still had his twig and berries? Maybe thats why he was angry all the time?

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I think of revenge as harming, and inflicting pain for some kind of wrong or slight. Justice may mean that, or it may just mean holding someone accountable for past deeds without explicitly making them suffer. Is someone being locked in a prison cell being "harmed?" In a sense, but I think of revenge as a more visceral form of hurting someone physically or psychologically. Someone is out to derive pleasure, or at least catharsis from causing pain in the process of symbolically balancing the books. From that POV, Batman does engage in revenge on those who would harm innocents IMO, while Jedi aren't supposed to. I see them as being more Buddhist-like, following some of the teachings of Ben and Yoda. They obviously will engage in conflict when necessary, but I don't see the philosophy of the Jedi as being conducive to folks seeking "revenge." Of course, this doesn't mean that a Jedi or developing Jedi will always follow this philosophical ideal. Luke didn't.

I don't factor the prequels into my thinking process here at all, by the way.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I got it, "Star Wars Episode 6: Justice of the Jedi".

 

[Darthrazz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I think Return of the Sith would of been a better title.

 

[K07]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Yeah, I'll never understand that one.

I remember the teaser poster for Episode II and thinking, "huh, a Jedi can't know love, WTF?" Then I remembered this was the prequels, and that Jedi were the same organization that told a 9 year old kid that it was somehow wrong to miss his mommy.

Weird, weird ****. When I was a kid, for some reason when I thought of "Jedi" watching the Original Trilogy, I thought of them as this,

Not this,

I mean, didn't even King Arthur and the Knights of the round table screw around with everyone's mother, daughter and sister?

I think Jedi were originally meant to be a hybrid of the two. Sort of like a Warrior Monk? Like this?

In ESB, both Yoda and Obi-Wan tell Luke to sacrifice his friends for the greater good. If you were in love and married and had a family, could you really let go of your emotional attachment for them to let them suffer at the hands of the enemy while you were off doing something else? No. And if something happened to them, wouldn't you be tempted at exacting revenge (not justice)? Yes. That would lead to the Darkside. I understand the celibacy thing and don't have problems with including that in the code, but the way everything was handled was so clunky I could see it seeming like a horrible idea.

I hope Luke's New Jedi Order follows the EU and drops the celibacy rule. He'd have had to if we're getting a new generation of Skywalkers.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Can you maim someone by chopping off a fake apendage that was there because they were already maimed?

Luke didn't know, so that's a moot point.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

In ESB, both Yoda and Obi-Wan tell Luke to sacrifice his friends for the greater good.

Yeah, but not for this,

If you were in love and married and had a family, could you really let go of your emotional attachment for them to let them suffer at the hands of the enemy while you were off doing something else? No.

He specifically told Luke not to go because it was dangerous, and that his vision was "cloudy" (no pun intended) and that they could possibly be fine. He even says that he would be honoring what they fight for. That's not saying you can't "love" or have an emotional attachment. Yoda and Ben told him that because he wasn't ready to face Darth. After the fact, there's also the fallacy that Yoda points out that if Luke had simply stayed put, everyone would have been out of harms way. In the end, Luke didn't even save anyone, his friends saved him.

There's nothing there saying, "you can't love these people bro". They knew that Vader was simply torturing them, trying to get Luke to feel it which would lead Luke into a trap.

I don't remember Ben being like, "now son, you can't see her in that way if you expect to be a Jedi", when Luke is noticeably enticed by Leia in that hologram and says she's beautiful.

And if something happened to them, wouldn't you be tempted at exacting revenge (not justice)? Yes. That would lead to the Darkside.

It could if you let those bad feelings get the better of you. Say Vader offed Han and Leia, I don't see what would be wrong with a fully trained Luke going after his head (like Yoda and Ben wanted him to do anyway). You can still have that heat of passion without becoming "da bad guy" or some evil thing.


I hope Luke's New Jedi Order follows the EU and drops the celibacy rule. He'd have had to if we're getting a new generation of Skywalkers.[/QUOTE]

 

[Darthrazz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Luke didn't know, so that's a moot point.

You are right! Only after seeing the that the hand was fake, did he realize he needed to stop or he would follow his Fathers path to becoming a Sith.

 

[BuGz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Has this picture been posted yet? A very recent pic of Hamell

Bri

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Luke didn't know, so that's a moot point.

Obiwan to Luke "He's more machine now than man". Let alone when Luke went toe-to-toe with Vader in ESB he was made more than aware that he was facing a cyborg wielding a lightsaber.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Revenge is not an action to be taken by a Jedi. The title of RotJ is great because it works as a return of the Jedi Order with Luke becoming a full-fledged Jedi Knight by the end of the film and it also represents Anakin's return into the light from the dark by the film's end. And the whole history with "Revenge" is an interesting misdirection with Luke dressed all in black like Vader, Luke force gripping baddies like Vader, and the Emperor tempting him and taunting him. It kept us on the edge of our seat. What would happen? Would Luke try to take revenge on the Sith? He did. Momentarily he twice messed up an engaged the Sith by losing his cool. But he overcame his feelings of anger and rage and told the Emperor off. He'd rather die than falling like his father. How epic was that?!

As for "Attack of the Clones," it has clones that come and attack and begin a big war. Your titles sound dull and boring in comparison. Think about when you were a kid. You have enough money to go see a movie with some friends. Do you go to "The Emerging Force," "The End of Peace," or "Attack of the Clones?" Which sounds epic and full of action and not a snooze fest? I do think your titles describe how awful AotC turned out being, but the title itself is one of the PT's greatest strengths in my opinion. I loved it the moment I heard it.

Great post.

Why can't revenge be taken by a Jedi, pre-1999 prequels?

Revenge is the better title. Revenge is to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, a retribution, which is exactly what Luke, Ben and Yoda were doing. I seem to recall Yoda telling Luke that the only way to win and become a true Jedi was to off his dad. He basically tells him, "ya gotta go kill your daddy-o and the Emperor" before he dies. That's not exactly good or compassionate, certainly not virtuous. Even Ben wants Luke to do it and tells him it's the only way. So? Realistically, shouldn't they be telling Luke to turn the other cheek? Shouldn't they be telling him that he should try and redeem his father instead of killing him? Wouldn't that be the "Jedi way"?

The Jedi in the original trilogy weren't these weird monk dudes that couldn't have sex, get married or all that other weird **** that the prequels brought in. They were warriors, knights. Why couldn't they seek retribution against the Emperor and Vader for the atrocities they committed? There's only three Jedi left because of them. "Revenge of the Jedi" is the edgier, better title in my opinion.

Lerath explained it really well, there's a bigger picture to consider.

It CAN be seen that way. The Fight leading up to THAT MOMENT was Revenge. That was Luke giving into his hate and his emotion. But it's not the end result. We're not asking whither luke saught revenge, but wither or not Revenge is right for a jedi to be seeking. It's not.

Becuase the ENTIRE point of that scene is luke is meant to be following in his father's footsteps. He's given in to his anger, he is racing towards the edge, and NEARLY scummbs to hate. NEARLY falls over... and stops just short of the deed. It's a haunting, chilling moment, when luke sees, Not his Enemy, but his OWN FATHER, beaten, and undone before him... And realizes how much like his father he Truely is... Right down to the robotic hand....

And He STOPS. He comes back from the edge. Stopping just short of vengence. In THAT MOMENT we witness the Return of the Jedi.

Well said.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Has this picture been posted yet? A very recent pic of Hamellhttps://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/19/nanyduqe.jpg

Bri

If by "recent" you mean 2008, then yup. It has been discussed here before.

 

[BuGz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Ah right! Well that clears that up then!

Bri

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Obiwan to Luke "He's more machine now than man". Let alone when Luke went toe-to-toe with Vader in ESB he was made more than aware that he was facing a cyborg wielding a lightsaber.

Because in Star Wars lingo, "more machine now" means "robotic hand."

Luke didn't know. It was written all over his face when he sees the stump and the smoking electronics (otherwise he wouldn't have looked at his own robotic hand, complete with servo noise).

 

[meanstreak]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Movie starts filming in May. Star Wars Episode VII will take place 30 years after Return of the Jedi, and will feature "very familiar faces along with a trio of young leads"

https://starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-vii-set-to-roll-cameras-may-2014.html

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Great post.


Lerath explained it really well, there's a bigger picture to consider.


Well said.

I'm not convinced.

Lawrence Kasdan's argument for the title "Revenge" has more weight to me than Uncle George's reasoning for "Return". It's a better title. Actually, I don't think any of Lucas' revisions, from titles to story, hold any value to me.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I wouldn't dispute that it is a better title. And I think Luke does seek out and serve some revenge on Vader's ***, at least until the point where he cuts off his hand. Doesn't mean that he's acting like a good Jedi, though. I would not say Luke was "returning" to be a Jedi when he stopped himself, though, because I don't think he was ever really a Jedi to begin with prior to that.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I guess my interpretation of that title was that the Jedi--broadly speaking--return in that film, at the end, when Luke finally understands and embodies the Jedi spirit. Prior to that, the only remaining Jedis in the story were Obi Wan and Yoda, right? But they were both has-beens and hermits, so they hardly counted anymore. Luke finally discovers what it means to be a Jedi, and now the spirit of the Jedi can help protect the poor slobs of the universe, he can help develop new Jedi to assist his efforts, and fulfill their objectives after he dies, etc. But considering George initially intended the title to be "Revenge" my assumption was probably off-base

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

So 30 years it is, no surprise there.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

But considering George initially intended the title to be "Revenge" my assumption was probably off-base

He also wanted Wookies in ROTJ instead of Ewoks, but due to budget constraints - shrunk them down & reversed their names to suit being new characters.

Oh uncle George..