Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[chewblacca]

And if Kylo was pure evil then what did Rey see in him?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Vader at least had a line he couldn't cross: he couldn't bring himself to kill his son. But Kylo crossed that same kind of line by killing his father. And while Anakin went dark to save the woman he loved, Ben Solo went dark for no such reason. Anakin kept a piece of himself that always wanted to save his wife, and acted on it by ultimately saving her son. Kylo did the opposite.

Furthermore, it can be argued that every one of Vader's evils was done in the act of duty. His murders were out of the allegiance he pledged to the Emperor, or due to his role as fearsome leader of the Imperial military. Kylo killing Han was personal, though. He did it to take the next step in going even darker. So, yeah, it's very conceivable that Luke saw a new level of evil in Ben that he never perceived in Anakin.

The important thing is that no matter what Luke saw in Ben, he still couldn't kill his nephew. He knew that he could use his lightsaber to keep those terrible things from happening. But in that moment, Luke chose to let Ben live rather than prevent many others from dying. So, every life Ben took after that would be on Luke's conscience. He could've prevented all of Kylo Ren's eventual evils from ever happening. None of Vader's evils were ever on Luke's conscience; he couldn't have prevented those.

 

[Khev]

And if Kylo was pure evil then what did Rey see in him?

She saw a false future of Kylo turning good that Snoke planted in her mind in order to bait her into trying to turn him. He said as much when she faced him in the throne room.

 

[TonTon]

Which Rian Johnson realized would be a problem because Luke would be on that island playing with rocks after he would've sensed the lives on FIVE planets ending suddenly. He also would've sensed Leia's yearning to bring him back. And Han's death. And he would've responded by . . . levitating boulders on the edge of a cliff? I know that I keep repeating myself, but that would be a pretty big problem if Luke hadn't been cut off from the Force. So Johnson asked JJ to cut the boulder-lifting gag in order to reconcile Luke's continued exile and non-action.

Weren’t there other ways around this, meaning if Rey found Luke using the force?

Much could have been the same — stuck on the island, x-wing destroyed — while still having his force awakened by the scenario in the movie (planets destroyed, Han’s death), the story that he had been cut off from the force could have been the same even.

JJ’s scenario makes it seem like Luke would have sprung into action and yielded a different movie. Some of the backstory still could have been the same.

 

[chewblacca]

But going forward Luke doing nothing made matters worse because this gave darkness free reign over everything.

 

[TonTon]

But going forward Luke doing nothing made matters worse because this gave darkness free reign over everything.

The movie explains that he assumed it would bring balance. He felt his strength in the light was what was causing the dark in Kylo and Snoke to rise.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Weren’t there other ways around this, meaning if Rey found Luke using the force?

Much could have been the same — stuck on the island, x-wing destroyed — while still having his force awakened by the scenario in the movie (planets destroyed, Han’s death), the story that he had been cut off from the force could have been the same even.

JJ’s scenario makes it seem like Luke would have sprung into action and yielded a different movie. Some of the backstory still could have been the same.

Those planets were destroyed well before Rey arrived on Ahch-To, though. The Resistance had time to analyze Starkiller, mount an offensive on it, evacuate, head back to base to regroup, send Rey off to find Luke, etc. If Luke had the Force re-awakened when Starkiller destroyed those planets, what would he be doing days later still on that island lifting rocks?

He never reached out to Leia. Something as simple as "come get me; this is where I am." He did nothing with the Force to interject himself back in. Being stuck with a downed X-Wing is one thing, but sitting around lifting rocks when you could be reaching out to your sister so you can get back in the game is incomprehensible to me. That's just me, though. Maybe it'd make sense to everyone else.

 

[chewblacca]

The movie explains that he assumed it would bring balance. He felt his strength in the light was what was causing the dark in Kylo and Snoke to rise.

But in retrospect to the original trilogy. Ben and Yoda did nothing so the emperor flourished. Things changed only when the light of the Jedi, Luke himself, returns so his thinking flawed.

 

[ajp4mgs]

But in retrospect to the original trilogy. Ben and Yoda did nothing so the emperor flourished. Things changed only when the light of the Jedi, Luke himself, returns so his thinking flawed.

The Emperor was already flourishing. He took full control of power, and turned Anakin right from under the noses of Yoda, Kenobi, and the rest of the Jedi. This resulted in both Yoda and Kenobi not only feeling that they failed, but feeling helpless enough to become entirely dependent on "a new hope" coming along.

Things only changed when Anakin/Vader changed. And Luke was the catalyst for that. For the same thing to happen with Kylo, a new light (much like Luke was in the OT) would need to come along. Ben Solo's old master (Luke) wouldn't have any better chance of turning Kylo than Anakin's old master (Kenobi) had of turning Vader.

Luke was as built-in to Kylo's turn to the Dark Side as Kenobi was built-in to Anakin's turn. Kenobi needed a new hope (Luke) that came in the OT. Luke needed one (Rey) to show up in the ST. (Symmetry.) Kenobi had been in exile; Luke was in exile. (Symmetry.) Kenobi ghost helped Luke; Luke ghost will help Rey. (Symmetry.) And as a bonus, Yoda had to be convinced to help Luke; and then Yoda convinced Luke to help Rey.

 

[Prime Clone]

I *did* like JJ’s use of light and shadow in Han’s death scene. Kylo was conflicted and almost turned, until the “sun” went out and the “son” turned dark again.

 

[Prime Clone]

On a separate note, the dumbest moment of TLJ for me was not closing the blast door on Crait until they had visual contact with the enemy. It was nearly disastrous and one ship made it through - it was just pure luck (and obviously a plot device) that it happened to be Finn and Rose.

 

[TonTon]

Those planets were destroyed well before Rey arrived on Ahch-To, though. The Resistance had time to analyze Starkiller, mount an offensive on it, evacuate, head back to base to regroup, send Rey off to find Luke, etc. If Luke had the Force re-awakened when Starkiller destroyed those planets, what would he be doing days later still on that island lifting rocks?

He never reached out to Leia. Something as simple as "come get me; this is where I am." He did nothing with the Force to interject himself back in. Being stuck with a downed X-Wing is one thing, but sitting around lifting rocks when you could be reaching out to your sister so you can get back in the game is incomprehensible to me. That's just me, though. Maybe it'd make sense to everyone else.

Is that firmly established in the OT, that people can communicate across the entire galaxy?

Ben senses Alderaan obviously but that doesn’t seem the same as talking across planets to a specific person.

Luke senses Leia in Bespin when they’re pretty close by. And then Vader when the ship is passing his cruiser in ROTJ. Vader senses Obi-Wan when he’s on the Death Star. Anyway, the boulder part sounds kinda stupid anyhow but I’m still not sold on RJ’s idea being the only possibility.

 

[Prime Clone]

Ben senses Alderaan obviously but that doesn’t seem the same as talking across planets to a specific person.

Yet Snoke can connect two third parties across the galaxy via Force projection, and Luke now knows Force projection too.

Best not to overanalyse, it obviously doesn't hold up!

 

[TonTon]

Yeah, in RJ’s world all that stuff is now possible and so Luke needed to be cut off from the force. But prior to that it doesn’t seem quite so clear to me.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yet Snoke can connect two third parties across the galaxy via Force projection, and Luke now knows Force projection too.

Best not to overanalyse, it obviously doesn't hold up!

Yeah, in RJ’s world all that stuff is now possible and so Luke needed to be cut off from the force. But prior to that it doesn’t seem quite so clear to me.

Didn't Yoda say in ESB that he had long been watching Luke (on Tatooine! . . . across the galaxy)? And watching closely enough to know that Luke had always been looking to the stars, and never what he was doing in the moment? I know that's not two-way communication, but you guys are making it seem like the Force has area codes that would restrict siblings who were the twin offspring of a Force-conceived "chosen one" from connecting with each other and conveying a brief message/feeling.

When Luke reached Leia from across the galaxy in TLJ, I didn't really find it hard to believe considering that Luke reached Leia before she even knew they were connected as siblings. It wasn't across planets, but Luke was far from a Jedi master (and Leia had no Force awareness at all at that point). I didn't think that using the Force (the energy that connects all living beings, much less twins) planets away is out of bounds.

Didn't Palpatine sense Anakin was in danger across the galaxy in ROTS? Again, not two-way communication, but how much of a stretch is it to think that Luke and Leia could do that? Or that Snoke could connect two Force-users who he explained the Force was using to balance one another? These two sets (Luke/Leia & Kylo/Rey) have established connections with one another.

I understand (and share) your skepticism when Force powers get out of control, but are these TLJ examples really that much of a breach from what Yoda and Palpatine could do in the previous trilogies?

 

[Khev]

Is that firmly established in the OT, that people can communicate across the entire galaxy?

Ben senses Alderaan obviously but that doesn’t seem the same as talking across planets to a specific person.

Luke uses the Force to speak to Han and Leia from a different planet in the once-officially canon Dark Empire comics from 1991-92 so while not the OT per se it's definitely an old idea that way predates RJ's involvement.

 

[Prime Clone]

I understand (and share) your skepticism when Force powers get out of control, but are these TLJ examples really that much of a breach from what Yoda and Palpatine could do in the previous trilogies?

I was mainly querying Snoke's ability. It's hard enough for one person to Force-project, yet he was holding conference calls! He must have been all-powerful. Hopefully we'll find out more about him.

Luke's ability to Force-project could be explained by his discovery of the Jedi texts.

 

[chewblacca]

Luke was as built-in to Kylo's turn to the Dark Side as Kenobi was built-in to Anakin's turn. Kenobi needed a new hope (Luke) that came in the OT. Luke needed one (Rey) to show up in the ST. (Symmetry.) Kenobi had been in exile; Luke was in exile. (Symmetry.) Kenobi ghost helped Luke; Luke ghost will help Rey. (Symmetry.) And as a bonus, Yoda had to be convinced to help Luke; and then Yoda convinced Luke to help Rey.

Then why was Luke like moments away from killing himself when Rey arrives? He says himself he went to the planet to die not to wait for a new hope.

 

[Prime Clone]

Then why was Luke like moments away from killing himself when Rey arrives? He says himself he went to the planet to die not to wait for a new hope.

Not only was Luke a quitter, he was a chicken. He was always "just about to" kill himself but never went through with it. Same with burning the Jedi tree and texts.

 

[jal76]

I still refuse to believe that Luke just gave up so easily. Like Hamill said this goes against character type. If your going by the books, in the novelizatiion of Return of the Jedi Luke believes that no one is beyond redemption. But I guess Johnson who explains more in the books than the movie didn’t read the novelizations.

He didn't give up...he considered killing Ben and then did not...the same heroism that led Luke to redeem Vader...even after angrily beating him to the ground and cutting off his hand no less...seems like an amazing display of character consistency if nothing else to me.