Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[RavenEye]

Uh huh... yeah buddy that's just bad writing...

 

[RIDDICK]

I really don't believe that Lucasfilm nor Disney actually give a fig about diversity or being "progressive". All they care about is money, however by appearing to be progressive they do ensure the likelihood of more positive reviews from the press, and a wonderful deflection from weak writing.

That's pretty obvious tho.
And not only with new Lucasfilm.
And not only in Hollywood.

 

[TaliBane]

4 scenes from Star Wars where a female acts stronger than the male doesn't even come close to the misogyny in cinema since the beginning of hollywood.

But it's statements like this that undermine what you say. What does that mean?

That historic misogyny in cinema rationalizes the creation of laughably transparent, simplistic and unearned (and therefore meaningless) feminism "moments" in TLJ as some kind of weird payback?

Leia was a powerful female presence in ANH, a feminist role model - Holdo is a feminist caricature whose words and actions come across as stupid even in a cursory analysis. She was solely created to chide the only stereotypical (and specifically designed by the filmmakers to be so) "Man" from TFA.

 

[jal76]

But it's statements like this that undermine what you say. What does that even mean to you?

That historic misogyny in cinema rationalizes the creation of laughably transparent, simplistic and unearned (and therefore meaningless) feminism "moments" in TLJ as some kind of weird payback?

Leia was a powerful female presence in ANH, a feminist role model - Holdo is a feminist caricature whose words and actions come across as stupid even in a cursory analysis. She was solely created to chide the only stereotypical (and specifically designed by the filmmakers to be so) "Man" from TFA.

Not sure how Holdo can be a feminist caricature when there is nothing in the screenplay that even indicates Holdo's gender...not a line of dialogue, not a reference, not a trait...in fact you could recast Holdo with a male actor without changing a word of dialogue you could literally edit a male in with green screen. So...where's the feminism caricature or otherwise?

 

[Vault Boy]

Not sure how Holdo can be a feminist caricature when there is nothing in the screenplay that even indicates Holdo's gender...not a line of dialogue, not a reference, not a trait...in fact you could recast Holdo with a male actor without changing a word of dialogue you could literally edit a male in with green screen. So...where's the feminism caricature or otherwise?

A staple of 3rd wave feminism is gender neutralism. But it isn't really neutral because it just means women who act and sometimes dress like men. Femininity is somehow seen as a bad thing. It's pretty insulting to women. The notion is that they should be ashamed of what they are and suppress it, accordingly. It denies basic scientifically proven biology.

 

[jal76]

A staple of 3rd wave feminism is gender neutralism. But it isn't really neutral because it just means women who act and sometimes dress like men. Femininity is somehow seen as a bad thing. It's pretty insulting to women. The notion is that they should be ashamed of what they are and suppress it, accordingly. It denies basic scientifically proven biology.

Hmmm...and I thought you guys were upset that Holdo commanded the fleet with purple hair, jewelry, and a quite feminine gown...can't have it both ways now...

 

[TaliBane]

Not sure how Holdo can be a feminist caricature when there is nothing in the screenplay that even indicates Holdo's gender...not a line of dialogue, not a reference, not a trait...in fact you could recast Holdo with a male actor without changing a word of dialogue you could literally edit a male in with green screen. So...where's the feminism caricature or otherwise?

You seriously don't think that casting a woman in a certain type of role renders the character "feminist"?

Clearly not a "*** and the City" fan.

Hmmm...and I thought you guys were upset that Holdo commanded the fleet with purple hair, jewelry, and a quite feminine gown...can't have it both ways now...

I have a problem with a leadership character who has the time (and dedicates the resources) to have her hair recently dyed purple and perfectly permed - and yes, getting her ballgown/jewelry dusted off - even as they are desperately fleeing in an hour-by-hour crisis with their ships being destroyed and personnel dying en-masse.

 

[YoNoSe]

When does she have her hair dyed and permed and outfit...uh...dusted?

 

[jal76]

You seriously don't think that casting a woman in a certain type of role renders the character "feminist"?

Clearly not a "*** and the City" fan.



I have a problem with a leadership character who has the time (and dedicates the resources) to have her hair recently dyed purple and perfectly permed - and yes, getting her ballgown/jewelry dusted off - even as they are desperately fleeing in an hour-by-hour crisis with their ships being destroyed and personnel dying en-masse.

Looked like Poe had time for a shave and a haircut too...but thats ok right...?

 

[TaliBane]

Looked like Poe had time for a shave and a haircut too...but thats ok right...?

Male soldiers do not shave or get haircuts during war, even in a combat setting?

You don't see a difference between that and a woman getting her hair intricately permed and dyed purple under similar circumstances?

Dude... lift the game

 

[jal76]

Male soldiers do not shave or get haircuts during war, even in a combat setting?

You don't see a difference between that and a woman getting her hair intricately permed and dyed purple under similar circumstances?

Dude... lift the game

You have her dated receipt from the hair salon?

 

[TaliBane]

You have her dated receipt from the hair salon?

Maybe try with your feet now.

It's this kind of lame, evasive, make-stuff-up-as-you-go thing that bugs me about so much TLJ discussion on here.

If you don't think that Holdo looks like she's just been to the Fashion Makeover Frigate for a fresh color/perm/styling, you need glasses.

This is an example of a key problem with a TLJ character, but you get the slippery-fish argument even when it's 100% proven.

 

[morphosis]

But it's statements like this that undermine what you say. What does that mean?

That historic misogyny in cinema rationalizes the creation of laughably transparent, simplistic and unearned (and therefore meaningless) feminism "moments" in TLJ as some kind of weird payback?

Leia was a powerful female presence in ANH, a feminist role model - Holdo is a feminist caricature whose words and actions come across as stupid even in a cursory analysis. She was solely created to chide the only stereotypical (and specifically designed by the filmmakers to be so) "Man" from TFA.

My point was when these roles have been reversed throughout Hollywood history and it was the women are the ones being made weaker, that they are only there in the story to serve the male and advance the males story. No one questions it. It just accepted that it's the female role to serve the man. And men especially don't see a problem with it. Hollywood has a long long history of this.

But now movies like Star Wars are showing women in power, many men cry like babies. You can't accept women in power in movies you expect only men to have those power roles. You make fun of their looks, you don't think they deserve that power. And then the typical response is "I am fine with female-driven films, but i hate SW." And then they state "we know women who didnt like TLJ either so this isnt about gender".

but it is about gender.

Like with Holdo. Its a character in a leadership role. There is nothing that unusual about this type of leadership character or their sacrifice in any war story. We have seen this type of character a million times in movies, but usually as a male. And no one questions their existence.

But now this character is female, and suddenly she's questioned and ridiculed.

She argues with one of her soldiers who is questioning her plan. She is then labeled as emasculating the men.

But if that same leader is male and he argues with his male soldiers for questioning his plan, and sometimes they wind up fighting, no one questions that male as emasculating another male.

I was just watching the XFiles. Mulder gets in an argument with Skinner because Mulder is tired of Skinner giving him these boring cases after the XFiles is shut down. And they fight and Skinner puts Mulder in his place. He's not emasculating him. Change Skinner to a woman, you guys will be crying your hearts out that she just emasculated Mulder.

And thats what happened with Holdo. If Holdo is a man, you guys wouldn't say a peep. But because people didnt like her hair, or her clothes, or her femininity, they curl up in a ball and cry "she's hurting me".

and all these posts below with photos of Holdo prove this point.

 

[YoNoSe]

Princess Leia is the icon of impractical hairdos.

Now we’ve got dudes writing salon fanfic to justify their hangups.

 

[TaliBane]

Princess Leia is the icon of impractical hairdos.

Now we’ve got dudes writing salon fanfic to justify their hangups.

I saw this one coming from a distance of 157 miles. I've been watching it approaching with a telescope, then binoculars, then with the naked eye.


But alas... no. My mother would do a more elaborate braid hairstyle than Leia's. And she'd do it in about twenty minutes.

What are talking about with Holdo, my friend is: a delicate... freshly coiffed... PERM. And a fresh hair dye treatment.

Yes, coupled with the ballgown and jewelry... we are indeed talking about a trip to the Spa/Salon Frigate.

And no, there is no tap dancing around this issue by referencing Leia's buns of Mon Mothma's war matron's parted red hair, or her somber old-world poltico-pomp outfit.

My point was when these roles have been reversed throughout Hollywood history and it was the women are the ones being made weaker, that they are only there in the story to serve the male and advance the males story. No one questions it. It just accepted that it's the female role to serve the man. And men especially don't see a problem with it. Hollywood has a long long history of this.

But now movies like Star Wars are showing women in power, many men cry like babies. You can't accept women in power in movies you expect only men to have those power roles. You make fun of their looks, you don't think they deserve that power. And then the typical response is "I am fine with female-driven films, but i hate SW." And then they state "we know women who didnt like TLJ either so this isnt about gender".

but it is about gender.

Like with Holdo. Its a character in a leadership role. There is nothing that unusual about this type of leadership character or their sacrifice in any war story. We have seen this type of character a million times in movies, but usually as a male. And no one questions their existence.

But now this character is female, and suddenly she's questioned and ridiculed.

She argues with one of her soldiers who is questioning her plan. She is then labeled as emasculating the men.

But if that same leader is male and he argues with his male soldiers for questioning his plan, and sometimes they wind up fighting, no one questions that male as emasculating another male.

I was just watching the XFiles. Mulder gets in an argument with Skinner because Mulder is tired of Skinner giving him these boring cases after the XFiles is shut down. And they fight and Skinner puts Mulder in his place. He's not emasculating him. Change Skinner to a woman, you guys will be crying your hearts out that she just emasculated Mulder.

And thats what happened with Holdo. If Holdo is a man, you guys wouldn't say a peep. But because people didnt like her hair, or her clothes, or her femininity, they curl up in a ball and cry "she's hurting me".

and all these posts below with photos of Holdo prove this point.

I respect what you've written, and agree with some of it, and really wish I could respond as I've referenced these same points in the past (about looking at the female percentages in both soldier and leadership ranks in real-world militaries across all cultures, nationalities and religions and what this says about the human mind regardless of gender, and how its important for film to reflect reality lest it feel false) but I will be nailed for "political speech" so can't.

It seems in this thread that you can put forward political points in defense of TLJ, but if you respond criticizing TLJ using political points, it will all be deleted.

 

[YoNoSe]

I saw this one coming from a distance of 157 miles. I've been watching it approaching with a telescope, then binoculars, then with the naked eye.


But alas... no. My mother would do a more elaborate braid hairstyle than Leia's. And she'd do it in about twenty minutes.

What are talking about with Holdo, my friend is: a delicate... freshly coiffed... PERM. And a fresh hair dye treatment.

Yes, coupled with the ballgown and jewelry... we are indeed talking about a trip to the Spa/Salon Frigate.

And no, there is no tap dancing around this issue by referencing Leia's buns of Mon Mothma's war matron's parted red hair, or her somber old-world poltico-pomp outfit.



I respect what you've written, and agree with some of it, and really wish I could respond as I've referenced these same points in the past (about looking at the female percentages in both soldier and leadership ranks in real-world militaries across all cultures, nationalities and religions and what this says about the human mind regardless of gender) but I will be nailed for "political speech" so can't.

It seems in this thread that you can put forward political points in defense of TLJ, but if you respond criticizing TLJ using political points, it will all be deleted.

Do you know how long it took to make Holdo’s underwear? Do you know, when you close your eyes, how it would feel on you?

Every one of these characters is a scifi alien.

“Only what you bring with you.”

You guys are bringing the kitchen sink.

 

[RavenEye]

Okay I'm just going to say it. CLOSE THE ******* THREAD AND BAN ANYONE WHO STARTS ANOTHER ONE...

This **** is getting ridiculous... before long we'll be having William Wallace face-painting war at Star Wars Celebration...

 

[morphosis]

I saw this one coming from a distance of 157 miles. I've been watching it approaching with a telescope, then binoculars, then with the naked eye.


But alas... no. My mother would do a more elaborate braid hairstyle than Leia's. And she'd do it in about twenty minutes.

What are talking about with Holdo, my friend is: a delicate... freshly coiffed... PERM. And a fresh hair dye treatment.

Yes, coupled with the ballgown and jewelry... we are indeed talking about a trip to the Spa/Salon Frigate.

And no, there is no tap dancing around this issue by referencing Leia's buns of Mon Mothma's war matron's parted red hair, or her somber old-world poltico-pomp outfit.



I respect what you've written, and agree with some of it, and really wish I could respond as I've referenced these same points in the past (about looking at the female percentages in both soldier and leadership ranks in real-world militaries across all cultures, nationalities and religions and what this says about the human mind regardless of gender) but I will be nailed for "political speech" so can't.

It seems in this thread that you can put forward political points in defense of TLJ, but if you respond criticizing TLJ using political points, it will all be deleted.

Thanks. Even if we disagree, I thank you for atleast saying that to me instead of attacking back with some ridiculous "hate speech about liberals" or posting YouTube rants.

I definitely will respect that you said that to me. So thank you.

 

[TaliBane]

Do you know how long it took to make Holdo’s underwear? Do you know, when you close your eyes, how it would feel on you?

You are defeated - it is useless to resist.

Don't let yourself be destroyed as Khev did.

Thanks. Even if we disagree, I thank you for atleast saying that to me instead of attacking back with some ridiculous "hate speech about liberals" or posting YouTube rants.

I definitely will respect that you said that to me. So thank you.

Look, on most issues I'm quite left-leaning - so I have no interest whatsoever in being Pepe the frog here. I'm just interested in keeping things truthful. Not saying that what underpins what you're saying is wholly false, but my gut instinct says some of it is. Its that difference between us that is the argument, even though I agree with some of what you're saying.

 

[YoNoSe]

You are defeated - it is useless to resist.

Don't let yourself be destroyed as Khev did.

Can’t argue with the guys that know alien hair maintainance.