Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Darth Snoopy]

wait, what did i do???

Don't play dumb.

I'm talking about your behavior in the thread now titled "Off Topic".

 

[Jmek]

I really don't believe that Lucasfilm nor Disney actually give a fig about diversity or being "progressive". All they care about is money, however by appearing to be progressive they do ensure the likelihood of more positive reviews from the press, and a wonderful deflection from weak writing.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

I thought you were stopping.

 

[crows]

I thought you were stopping.

i am stopped but you brought it up.... im not talking about star wars anymore
you are publicly calling me out about that thread, i did that thread legitimately. im just carious of why

 

[Darth Snoopy]

i am but you brought it up.... im not talking about star wars anymore
you are publicly calling me out about that thread, i did that thread legitimately. im just carious of why

*sigh* Never mind.

 

[crows]

all right. ill forget about it

 

[xipotec]

These days people see a conspiracy under every rock....

Maaaaybe they decide they wanted more female leads in SW to capture a wider audience base?

That is pretty clear to me? Now if you want to take that and turn it into some broader social agenda designed to keep the white man down....that’s your problem.

Plenty of politicians are selling that crap also to explain the decline of the white middle class , and the loss of jobs.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vault Boy]

These days people see a conspiracy under every rock....

Maaaaybe they decide they wanted more female leads in SW to capture a wider audience base?

That is pretty clear to me? Now if you want to take that and turn it into some broader social agenda designed to keep the white man down....that’s your problem.

Plenty of politicians are selling that crap also to explain the decline of the white middle class , and the loss of jobs.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. The profit motive would explain the shallowness of the pandering (not necessarily the female lead). It's not genuine.

 

[Prime Clone]

The TLJ comic adaptation gives a little more insight into Luke's state of mind...

And pokes fun at TFA...

 

[jal76]

I am telling anyone who has fallen for this ridiculous interpretation of Kathleen's interview is wrong.
The have completely misinterpreted her words. And they are making stuff up that she killed Luke to bring more women in. its utter nonsense.

But If someone can give me a real interview where Kathleen says that word for word I will take everything back. But i have scoured YouTube and the internet for it. I find no transcripts from interviews where she is quote saying this. All it is is people on the internet looking for attention with YouTube rants. They never give any context to where they say these words came from. None.

and if its all from the video i posted, then as i said, its a complete ridiculous interpretation of it because her words are clear as day. There is just nothing in there to interpret. It is what it actually is.

Great series of posts! This thread is locked in a struggle between being a place for some really intelligent conversation about what people like and dislike about this film...and then just out right trollish nonsense, one liners, and pointless YouTube videos...as if someone automatically becomes an authority on a subject because they filmed themselves talking to their phone and posted it on YouTube...thanks for injecting some intelligence into the discourse.

 

[Python]

I mentioned it earlier that I just think we've forgotten how to simply enjoy a movie and not feel compelled to tear it apart.

I really don't think this is the case in general. I've seen plenty of movies that I like, despite sometimes taking issue with certain aspects. I've also seen plenty of movies that I didn't enjoy and simply moved on from or forgot about. But I've seen very few movies that I genuinely hated, TLJ was one of these very few titles.

Here's partly why, and this isn't aimed at you from this point, it's just based on the comments from the last several pages. For those of us of a certain age (I'm only in my early thirties but grew up watching the OT VHS's almost daily) I even enjoyed the prequels a lot TBH. Star Wars isn't just a series of movies any more. It's more than that, it's a part of our lives and it's something we genuinely care about and feel involved with, it's a passion for many. Some people will have a similar feeling for other franchises I'm sure. What TLJ did was throw much of what we loved out of the window and replace it with incredibly unsubtle agendas that have no place being in a Star Wars movie. I'm all for equality for all, I'm passionate about the treatment of animals and I despise trophy hunters ect in real life. But do I want to see any of these issues in a damn Star Wars movie? No! Star Wars has never been about such things and they were wedged in there at the expense of good story telling or any consistency with preceding SW movies, that's the tragic thing. This whole idea that it's only sexist men that don't like TLJ is an unbelievably arrogant and disingenuous position to hold. It helps nobody and it actually prevents proper discussions on such subjects in the real world.

Imagine If after Vader defeated Obi Wan in ANH, Luke just swatted all of the troopers aside and beat the crap out of Vader. Vader would have had little impact as a villain after that. But this is how they have treated Rey and Kylo in the new series. That feeling of struggle on the good guys side, and terrifying power from the dark side just isn't present. That's one of the big issues. Rey would be a better character if she'd had to struggle a bit. And even though I like Kylo Ren myself, he has been done a disservice and could have been much more menacing. Hux was an outright joke in TLJ, what was the point of him? Both aspects would have led to better movies. The less said about TLJ Luke, the better sadly. I feel sorry for Mark Hamill.

 

[morphosis]

Great series of posts! This thread is locked in a struggle between being a place for some really intelligent conversation about what people like and dislike about this film...and then just out right trollish nonsense, one liners, and pointless YouTube videos...as if someone automatically becomes an authority on a subject because they filmed themselves talking to their phone and posted it on YouTube...thanks for injecting some intelligence into the discourse.

thanks very much. I know. Social issues are and will always be very contentious. And same with personal tastes in art. One side will like it, the other side doesn't. The problem is finding the right balance where we can discuss these things without the name calling and hateful arguments.

Its funny though, Star Wars is very much about politics, government, social issues, war, etc etc. But when you try to discuss these issues some people get all upset about it. There is a reason why Leia is a strong leader, or why Rey doesn't need Finn to help her up, or why Holdo slaps Poe, and why they showed Luke drink the milk from the thala-siren creature.

Below someone thinks that milk scene is an attempt to emasculate men. That is a complete wrong interpretation of the scene. The purpose was to show Luke's daily life on the island. We see him fish, climb rocks, live in the huts, etc etc. Him drinking the milk was just another part of Luke's daily routine of how he survives on the island. They tried to make it a comedic scene by grossing out Rey. It worked for some for the humor, others didn't find it funny. But that is all that scene was about.

But below someone thinks its to emasculate him. Its just not the case. Hamill explained the scene himself:

"Well, you know, it’s part of trying to show what his daily routine was! What surprised me was the expense they went to to build this thing: they could have done it with CGI and built just the midriff section."- Mark Hamill

Also some say it was a nod to the milk we see him drink in ANH, and other scenes of people drink milk in the SW movies. And of course that is true as well. But the milk he drank on the island is a different milk than from ANH.

 

[Python]

thanks very much. I know. Social issues are and will always be very contentious. And same with personal tastes in art. One side will like it, the other side doesn't. The problem is finding the right balance where we can discuss these things without the name calling and hateful arguments.

The problem is getting people to understand that there aren't simply two sides to this. I'm in your camp when it comes to many social issues. Woman's equality being one of them (even though my GF is very much the boss in our relationship already) But it's fine to hold such views, and not want them anywhere near a beloved franchise that has always been an escape from such things in the real world. People whom complain about the unsubtle feminism forced into in TLJ don't have to be against equality at all and vice versa. This with or against us mentality needs weeding out.

 

[morphosis]

The problem is getting people to understand that there aren't simply two sides to this. I'm in your camp when it comes to many social issues. Woman's equality being one of them (even though my GF is very much the boss in our relationship already) But it's fine to hold such views, and not want them anywhere near a beloved franchise that has always been an escape from such things in the real world. People whom complain about the unsubtle feminism forced into in TLJ don't have to be against equality at all and vice versa. This with or against us mentality needs weeding out.

i see Star Wars very much a reflection of the real world now as an adult. Lucas did as well. It came out after the vietnam war, and SW was very much a reflection of Lucas's views of that war, as well as other things. But i was a little kid in the 80s. I didn't know what the vietnam war was when i was little. I didn't know anything about social issues, or politics or government. Even look at cartoons I watched as a kid. Classic Disney, WB, Hanna-barbera, etc and even when you get into anime they all reflected the real world and social issues. But as a kid, you don't see a lot of those things because you haven't learned about them yet.

Now as an adult i see these things everyday. I see problems the world has, and I think art is a good way to communicate issues to the world. I have no problems with movies addressing these issues. tbh, i think moving forward it is a good thing we do have these debates/discussions. If we don't bring them up, how can we resolve or fix anything?

 

[pixletwin]

Freaks can get their opinion across without being nasty and I didn't call you out in my post. Only Crows.

I often mistake crows for ravens.

 

[Bravomite]

I really don't think this is the case in general. I've seen plenty of movies that I like, despite sometimes taking issue with certain aspects. I've also seen plenty of movies that I didn't enjoy and simply moved on from or forgot about. But I've seen very few movies that I genuinely hated, TLJ was one of these very few titles.

Here's partly why, and this isn't aimed at you from this point, it's just based on the comments from the last several pages. For those of us of a certain age (I'm only in my early thirties but grew up watching the OT VHS's almost daily) I even enjoyed the prequels a lot TBH. Star Wars isn't just a series of movies any more. It's more than that, it's a part of our lives and it's something we genuinely care about and feel involved with, it's a passion for many. Some people will have a similar feeling for other franchises I'm sure. What TLJ did was throw much of what we loved out of the window and replace it with incredibly unsubtle agendas that have no place being in a Star Wars movie. I'm all for equality for all, I'm passionate about the treatment of animals and I despise trophy hunters ect in real life. But do I want to see any of these issues in a damn Star Wars movie? No! Star Wars has never been about such things and they were wedged in there at the expense of good story telling or any consistency with preceding SW movies, that's the tragic thing. This whole idea that it's only sexist men that don't like TLJ is an unbelievably arrogant and disingenuous position to hold. It helps nobody and it actually prevents proper discussions on such subjects in the real world.

Imagine If after Vader defeated Obi Wan in ANH, Luke just swatted all of the troopers aside and beat the crap out of Vader. Vader would have had little impact as a villain after that. But this is how they have treated Rey and Kylo in the new series. That feeling of struggle on the good guys side, and terrifying power from the dark side just isn't present. That's one of the big issues. Rey would be a better character if she'd had to struggle a bit. And even though I like Kylo Ren myself, he has been done a disservice and could have been much more menacing. Hux was an outright joke in TLJ, what was the point of him? Both aspects would have led to better movies. The less said about TLJ Luke, the better sadly. I feel sorry for Mark Hamill.

Great post Python. All rings true for me. The list of films I genuinely hate is small, X-men the last stand, Alien 3 and The Last Jedi. And TLJ is the worst offender on my list for the exact reasons you described - I think we might also be similar in age judging by your comments regarding watching the OT on VHS and enjoying the PT.

I re-watched TLJ for the first time yesterday because my wife wanted to see it (she missed it at the cinema). Throughout I kept thinking about what a missed opportunity it was. Visually it is stunning but I can literally count on one hand the number of moments (not even complete scenes) that I actually enjoyed.

Watching it on Amazon allowed my wife to pause the movie to ask questions... She had many lol! The opening crawl took about 5 minutes of questions to get through alone - I thought the First Order were on the back foot because last we saw they had been defeated? Is it explained how the first order have amassed so many resources in secret? When did the resistance get beaten down to just these few stragglers? When does this movie take place exactly ... Wait what that soon after TFA and all this has happened? It was a looong film.

 

[jal76]

Yeah... probably me. I'll back off, I need a break anyway. I was hoping to understand the other side better... I think I do, and it helps. I also am disappointed that some of those individuals who share my viewpoints (to some degree) are sometimes not very nice about it.

Yep...I have already spoken of my love for the film as ad nauseum but have best friends and people who I genuinely respect who can rattle off some very sincere reasons why they hated TLJ...I really cannot relate to thinking that some one is less intelligent or a "bad person" or even stranger a "bad fan" whatever that is just because they did not connect with the film the way that I did. It has to come down to sheer loneliness..."if I did or did not like the film everyone else had better feel the same way or else...I'm all alone " Kind of sad if you think about it. I will consider this the next time someone here flies off the handle because someone else disagrees with them and instead of feeling a twinge of annoyance just feel bad for them instead.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I haven't read all the posts, haven't had time yet - but saw this on a quick skim. You're absolutely right. I'm sorry, I think I've been guilty of that.

I do tend to care too much when I care about anything, guess it's the artistic side. The math side has to work at reeling it in.

I want to give all the posts the attention they deserve, I will go back and read through when I have time. In the meantime, here are some things I liked about TLJ:

The Porgs are cute (if they were real, I'd be horrified if the lightsaber went through one, but for the movie to me it would have just been a continuation of the humor and would work).
BB-8 is the Elmo of the Star Wars world - I mean that in a good way - he's just so likeable.
It was fun to see Rey, Finn & Poe again.
It was good to see Leia, Chewie, Luke, and droids again.
The fighting scene after Snoke was killed was very cool.
The use of red was very dramatic, very cool.
Those new walkers are... well... I want one!
I both liked (and disliked, ambivalence - but for this list focus on liked) when Luke threw his saber over his shoulder. I did laugh out loud.
I liked when Luke was messing with Rey about "feeling the Force" - laughed at that too.
The bombers were cool.
After the shock wore off and I saw the Yoda scene for the 3rd time, I did like aspects of it. I always liked his quirky, kooky side anyway.
I liked the way they did the Rey/Kylo Force connection.
I liked that Luke called the Jedi on their own crap. That was never an issue for me.
I liked that Yoda burned the old texts and said what he did about the future, that was never an issue for me either.
I'm sure there's more.

Cheers for having the open mind to pick out things you liked about the movie.

Maybe not. Here's the pattern I saw:

Han leaves Leia... he's reverted to his pirate ways, while Leia has progressed and is a general in the Resistance.

Han apologizes.

Finn is untrustworthy, trying to save his own @$$ over everyone else... but yes he does come through in the end.

Resistance leadership is not diverse. They appear to be all white women and one Ackbar.

Luke goes into hiding, leaving Leia after nearly killing her kid. He becomes a bitter old man.

Luke apologizes.

Poe calls out the female leadership, then ends up being wrong and having to swallow his cockiness.

So while there may not be any agenda, correct me if I'm wrong that the men seem all very troubled and the women seem strong and without any faults. It's possible this is my own baggage - I'm a white guy and I've felt most of my life as if I've had to apologize to everyone for being a white guy instead of female and/or some minority... so if that's the case and it's just me, okay... but is there no pattern here? Is it just me? Cuz it sure seems like there's a pattern, by design, coincidence, or mistake.

This I think may be some personal baggage. Everything you've pointed out seems normal and fine. Nothing wrong with the men apologizing or being called out for doing something wrong. I don't know if it's my cultural background, being Hispanic, but I've grown up surrounded by strong, intelligent women and even through school (girls were always at the top of the class, ahead of the boys) and in my career, smart, strong, successful women are who I mostly interact with. My current boss and owner of the company is a woman! And I have never felt marginalized, demeaned, or emasculated.



Edited to add:

i see Star Wars very much a reflection of the real world now as an adult. Lucas did as well. It came out after the vietnam war, and SW was very much a reflection of Lucas's views of that war, as well as other things. But i was a little kid in the 80s. I didn't know what the vietnam war was when i was little. I didn't know anything about social issues, or politics or government. Even look at cartoons I watched as a kid. Classic Disney, WB, Hanna-barbera, etc and even when you get into anime they all reflected the real world and social issues. But as a kid, you don't see a lot of those things because you haven't learned about them yet.

Now as an adult i see these things everyday. I see problems the world has, and I think art is a good way to communicate issues to the world. I have no problems with movies addressing these issues. tbh, i think moving forward it is a good thing we do have these debates/discussions. If we don't bring them up, how can we resolve or fix anything?

Fantastic post! The best art, and the best movies, all reflect the times in which they were made. I took a movie appreciation class in college, and Ghostbusters was highlighted because it illustrated the entrepreneurial nature of starting your own business. Who would have thought GB would have such layers of socio-political commentary?

 

[Vault Boy]

I really don't believe that Lucasfilm nor Disney actually give a fig about diversity or being "progressive". All they care about is money, however by appearing to be progressive they do ensure the likelihood of more positive reviews from the press, and a wonderful deflection from weak writing.

Bingo! Major corporations and true leftist politics don't mix. The last thing they want is a socialist revolution. Rightists defy logic when they argue otherwise. There's also a big difference between the regressive left and the libertarian left. SJWism is of the authoritarian brand.

 

[morphosis]

Watching it on Amazon allowed my wife to pause the movie to ask questions... She had many lol! The opening crawl took about 5 minutes of questions to get through alone - I thought the First Order were on the back foot because last we saw they had been defeated? Is it explained how the first order have amassed so many resources in secret? When did the resistance get beaten down to just these few stragglers? When does this movie take place exactly ... Wait what that soon after TFA and all this has happened? It was a looong film.

I can try and answer some of your questions. The FO lost Starkillerbase, but they weren't defeated. Snoke was not on Starkiller in TFA, he was with his fleet that we learn in TLJ.

The Republic lost most of their fleet in TFA in the scene where Starkiller blew up Hosnian Prime. When you watch that destruction they hit several targets, all being the Republic and its fleet.

The "Resistance" is Leia's group, which is a guerilla group of fighters set out to defeat the First Order with covert assistance from the Republic. C3PO says "Oh My without the Republic Fleet, we're doomed!!" after Starkiller blows up the Republic. So Leia's group is all thats left of any fleet the Republic had who are against the First Order.

TLJ takes place immediately after TFA. They recap Rey giving Luke his saber, but Rey is only on Luke's island for about 2 days.