Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[The Autistic Asexual]

Watching Empire on TNT right now...

One thing that seems to be forgotten in the ST is the "used galaxy" look. Everyone is dirty in Empire, especially Luke and Yoda. I can't remember anyone in the ST being dirty, even after a TIE crash. But then, the PT is also unusually clean. All that CGI, all shiny and sparkly. Only time I remember dirty clothes is when Anakin and Obi are fighting in lava.

The prequel trilogy being squeaky clean makes way more sense than the sequel trilogy having that same aesthetic. Rogue One has that great, used look to it and The Mandalorian looks to be wonderfully dirty as well and that's good, very good.

 

[TaliBane]

Keep your fantasies out of it....she sweats also.....

Umm... MY fantasies? You need to get around the internet more often.... dozens and dozens of Finn-Poe articles from major outlets. I mean this is one quick example... from freakin' NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE no less, and from last month and in reference to TROS. No need to be shy about it.

Nothing "ambiguously" about that.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Are they still lying about a Finn-Poe romance. That's just false advertising.

 

[TaliBane]

Are they still lying about a Finn-Poe romance. That's just false advertising.

If they didn't, the duo wouldn't be ambiguous.

 

[abake]

I'm replying to the end of your post first because I want to put a priority on thanking you for offering your well-thought-out perspective on the PT. Everything you wrote made for a great read, and I'm glad to have gotten the opportunity to get your thorough take on this. I obviously have a different point of view, but enjoy the civil discourse with a knowledgeable fan. So, thank you!

It's fun to get into the fray every now and then!

You're describing the slave boy Anakin as he perhaps *should've been* portrayed. But that's not the "little Ani" we see on screen. Instead, we get a portrayal devoid of any of the characterization that you're attributing to the writing. If he was demonstrably resentful of his enslavement, we wouldn't have seen him exclaiming "BOOM!" and irreverently slapping his hand on the table when describing what would happen to a slave if the perimeter devices they wear got triggered. The "he's just acting like a kid" excuse doesn't cut it, because you can't have it both ways. His portrayal can't be expected to convey the gravity of the deep insights you attribute to him while simultaneously making him seem like a carefree kid jubilantly making his way through the day.

Anakin wasn't portrayed as so much of a "disposable piece of property" when Lucas went out of his way to have Watto talk up the boy's skills at fixing things and racing pods. Watto valued Anakin's skills, and Anakin knew it. The idea of a "lonely, sad" boy is undercut by his group of friends gathered around his pod racer (one even exclaiming how "wizard" it was), and by his exclamations of "YIPPIE!!" He was presented as a boy who raced pods in major events, built his own droid, and had enough value to Watto where Anakin didn't seem the least bit intimidated by him. He was clearly loved by his mother, and confident/arrogant enough to be confrontational with Sebulba without any apparent fear of severe repercussions.

And he wasn't "taken away from his mother." He was freed, and encouraged to go. His mother was grateful, and even reassuring when asking Anakin, "What does your heart tell you?" The young version of this character may have been in a setting that could've lead to rich character depth, but the execution didn't match the potential.

Good points all, but remember that I’m always pointing to the balance there is in the characterization (not acting!). Like any kid (well, any person, actually), “little Ani” is not one-dimensional. You infer that to be believably/demonstrably resentful of his situation, he couldn’t/shouldn’t express happiness (“BOOM!”). I find that hard to believe. Kids are the most incredibly resilient beings, they can be living in dire situations, and yet be happy playing soccer with a ball made of rolled-up clothes and cardboard on a muddy field… Conversely, they can be extremely insightful. In my experience (having lived in third world countries with abysmal economic and social gaps for most of my life) I’ve seen kids “have it both ways”, as you put it, being very aware of their situation and yet finding joy in simple things (not that a Pod-racer was very simple, but you get my meaning). Again, Anakin shows his good-natured side, yet he also shows his fearful and resentful side (“you’re a slave?” “I’m a person and my name is Anakin”).
You mention Watto and his admiration of Anakin’s skills. That’s fine, still doesn’t mean Anakin is anything but a piece of property to be used by Watto (having said that, I do believe Watto had a soft spot for the kid, which is best seen in AOTC –a really nice scene by the way- “chut chut Watto”).
As for not being intimidated by Watto or Sebulba, well, isn’t that part of Anakin’s arrogance and impulsive nature? Again, I get the impression you’re looking for a more one-dimensional character. Put aside the acting for one moment and I think you’ll see that the arc of the character and the seeds to his future actions are all there, being developed from the start.
Finally, whether he was taken from his mother or freed… granted, he was freed, and he did go willingly.
Still his (natural) fear of never seeing his mother is clear to see, as is his longing for her in AOTC –his need for a family “don’t say that master, you’re the closest thing I have to a father”.
I assure you, the depth is there, unfortunately, sometimes marred by poor execution and/or acting. And I still maintain that the acting isn’t as terrible as everybody says…

BTW, Qui-Gon's insistence on not being there to free slaves can easily be interpreted as evidence of Jedi principles of non-intervention when, and where, their services are not sought. That's not so much "hubris" as it is application of a defined (if limited) moralism for the Order itself.

I would argue that there is no instance of Jedi principles akin to a Prime Directive in any of the movies. So I find your interpretation more of a stretch than mine.

If any teenager had his mother tied up and mistreated by primitive beings, had her die in his arms, and also had the benefit of a lightsaber and Jedi training, you think Anakin's actions with the Tuskens wouldn't be the exact same response from many others in that same situation?

Well, first off, as Anakin himself points out, he is a Jedi, he’s been trained to be better than this. Secondly, you must’ve hung out with some pretty tough teenagers if killing off an entire village -women and children included- was the way to go! At any rate, that isn’t the point, the point is that it shows Anakin’s descent into darkness and his continuous struggle with controlling his emotions.

As for the rest of your description of AOTC Anakin, again, the actual execution in the film itself undermines what you're laying out. It sounds good on paper, but when you see it play out on screen, here's what you get instead: A whiny teen trying to woo a senator (who had only known him briefly as a young child when she was a queen) by using some of the most awkward dialogue and bizarre courtship (levitating fruit during lunch, and pretending to be trampled by a giant gonad). The script, and the acting, didn't capitalize on the narrative threads that you're outlining. You're giving credit to it as a good story because you're ignoring the execution of specific pieces in favor of stepping back to admire an overall mosaic picture the way you see it.

Well, yes… my entire point is that the story being told is solid and makes sense. While I don’t find all of the acting and all of the dialogue as abysmal as you do, I’m trying to focus on the story and the character arcs.
Having said that, I think you’re focusing too much on certain aspects while ignoring the overall story. Unfortunately, you found Anakin irritating and that prevented you from seeing or appreciating anything else.
For example, I would argue that Anakin’s infatuation with Padmé, who as you rightly point out he’d only seen a couple of times ten years ago, is another beat in his character arc, underlining his obsessive personality. It shows you how emotionally immature he is.
As for the levitating fruit and the trampling gonad… have you seen teenagers in love? They fall for the silliest things… But hey, I agree, it’s not very well executed.

Yes, it is surprising. It is surprising that a Jedi who was supposed to have the benefit of incredibly keen foresight, and had outed the Sith traitor as being Palpatine, would turn around minutes later to do the bidding of that very same Sith traitor. Especially surprising given how obviously disapproving that anchor of his would be. Anakin always seems to just default to the "What have I done!?" self-analysis to predicate his evolving self-doubt and vulnerability. That's not good writing; that's lazy and amateurish. That's not in-depth character exploration, but rather an expedient device to excuse radical (and rushed) characterization changes.

Evolving Anakin from one movie to the next would be one thing, but taking a sharp pivot within minutes in the same film is a whole other deal. This guy we saw for the first half of the movie turned around and slaughtered younglings; he choked his wife (and the ridiculous irony of that speaks for itself); and he wanted to murder his mentor. Worse yet, his dialogue suggests that his willingness to murder Obi-Wan was because "if you're not with me, you're my enemy." Where the hell did that come from? How does that correlate with any established character motivations for his turning? How was that established?

I can’t really rebuke this, since we’re fundamentally disagreeing on how we interpret and experience the story. I would just be repeating what I already said, just in so many different words…
But, to your point of how Anakin could on the one hand be the one who tells Windu about Palpatine’s true identity and then attack Windu and leave him at Palpatine’s mercy: Anakin did not intend for Windu to kill Palpatine, because he did believe that Palpatine could help him save Padmé. He was still loyal to the Jedi and was doing his duty, so much so that he obeys Windu’s orders to not intervene at first. It’s only when Windu threatens to kill Palpatine that Anakin is faced with an impossible choice and strikes. And once the deed is done, there is no going back, he must commit to Palpatine. What follows is the same giving into his darkness, the same release of anger and frustration, as when he avenged his mother death. Only at a much more terrible scale this time around.

The story, and its progression, does not flow naturally for me. It doesn't add up enough because I think it's often self-conflicting in terms of logic. You see great character building, and I see disjointed and incoherent writing. That pretty much sums it up. I'm glad you see the characterization the way you do, and that you can enjoy the portrayal that is supposed to usher in the Darth Vader of the OT. I don't get that sense, and it's not just because the acting and dialogue were horrible.

Indeed, that is it, in a nutshell. Again, we’re at odds here, just as I can’t see and enjoy what you see and enjoy in TLJ.

Even if Dooku was "a Master Jedi disenchanted with the Status Quo," he still ended up in servitude to Sidious. How is that so different from the disenchantment with the Republic/Jedi Order that Anakin experienced. What role Dooku actually played, and how much he knew, remains relatively unclear to this day. I don't even think Dooku's role as apprentice "Darth Tyranus" is one that all fans fully understand.

Yes, and I think that is the tragedy of Dooku. Of all of Palpatine’s apprentices, he’s the one who was completely fooled.

We're getting Kylo's story at a different point in time from Anakin's fall in the PT. Overall, it's closer to Vader's arc in the OT, and with more obvious parallels (such as being introduced to him as already a mask-wearing evil enforcer). Kylo has "that mighty Skywalker blood." That alone made him a target for being corrupted, and Luke's training of him in the Jedi arts would make him even more of a prime candidate because of how wielding such power can also be used for corruptible intent. This is all self-evident stuff, but deeply dependent on knowledge of the previous six films.

The details of Kylo's descent are what we are discovering as the ST unfolds. That's still a part of the intrigue, and presumably will be addressed during TROS. His arc can't be fully defined before that. What we know is that he was taken by Luke as a student, meaning that his father and mother were no longer his prime influence. Han and Leia blame themselves (and Snoke), and Luke blames himself for failing to learn from his predecessors' mistakes. Luke didn't heed enough of those lessons about the potential downside of training another powerful Skywalker. That is part of what leads to Luke's self-recrimination in TLJ. It's all spelled out there in actual explicit dialogue.

Kylo's fall is not merely Kylo's alone. It is also a fall for Luke, and for Leia, and for the whole Jedi Order (at least in terms of its legacy). The repeating of history is a key theme through all of this, and is meant to illustrate that though victory seemed complete after ROTJ, the sins of the past left embers burning that were not extinguished. The ST, and especially TROS, promise to resolve the remnant effects of those past sins, and fully conclude the saga with no leftover traces (hopefully, anyway).

I pretty much agree with what you’re saying here; in my post I was reacting to your assertion that there was more of a character arc for Kylo in just one movie (TFA) than for Anakin in all three. I am also hopeful that we will get a fully resolved character arc for Kylo with TROS.

Again, it's not just bad acting and bad lines of dialogue in the PT. Far from it. But those negative aspects of the execution definitely didn't help.

Excellent discussion my friend.

Is anybody else reading this?

 

[xipotec]

It's fun to get into the fray every now and then!



Good points all, but remember that I’m always pointing to the balance there is in the characterization (not acting!). Like any kid (well, any person, actually), “little Ani” is not one-dimensional. You infer that to be believably/demonstrably resentful of his situation, he couldn’t/shouldn’t express happiness (“BOOM!”). I find that hard to believe. Kids are the most incredibly resilient beings, they can be living in dire situations, and yet be happy playing soccer with a ball made of rolled-up clothes and cardboard on a muddy field… Conversely, they can be extremely insightful. In my experience (having lived in third world countries with abysmal economic and social gaps for most of my life) I’ve seen kids “have it both ways”, as you put it, being very aware of their situation and yet finding joy in simple things (not that a Pod-racer was very simple, but you get my meaning). Again, Anakin shows his good-natured side, yet he also shows his fearful and resentful side (“you’re a slave?” “I’m a person and my name is Anakin”).
You mention Watto and his admiration of Anakin’s skills. That’s fine, still doesn’t mean Anakin is anything but a piece of property to be used by Watto (having said that, I do believe Watto had a soft spot for the kid, which is best seen in AOTC –a really nice scene by the way- “chut chut Watto”).
As for not being intimidated by Watto or Sebulba, well, isn’t that part of Anakin’s arrogance and impulsive nature? Again, I get the impression you’re looking for a more one-dimensional character. Put aside the acting for one moment and I think you’ll see that the arc of the character and the seeds to his future actions are all there, being developed from the start.
Finally, whether he was taken from his mother or freed… granted, he was freed, and he did go willingly.
Still his (natural) fear of never seeing his mother is clear to see, as is his longing for her in AOTC –his need for a family “don’t say that master, you’re the closest thing I have to a father”.
I assure you, the depth is there, unfortunately, sometimes marred by poor execution and/or acting. And I still maintain that the acting isn’t as terrible as everybody says…



I would argue that there is no instance of Jedi principles akin to a Prime Directive in any of the movies. So I find your interpretation more of a stretch than mine.



Well, first off, as Anakin himself points out, he is a Jedi, he’s been trained to be better than this. Secondly, you must’ve hung out with some pretty tough teenagers if killing off an entire village -women and children included- was the way to go! At any rate, that isn’t the point, the point is that it shows Anakin’s descent into darkness and his continuous struggle with controlling his emotions.



Well, yes… my entire point is that the story being told is solid and makes sense. While I don’t find all of the acting and all of the dialogue as abysmal as you do, I’m trying to focus on the story and the character arcs.
Having said that, I think you’re focusing too much on certain aspects while ignoring the overall story. Unfortunately, you found Anakin irritating and that prevented you from seeing or appreciating anything else.
For example, I would argue that Anakin’s infatuation with Padmé, who as you rightly point out he’d only seen a couple of times ten years ago, is another beat in his character arc, underlining his obsessive personality. It shows you how emotionally immature he is.
As for the levitating fruit and the trampling gonad… have you seen teenagers in love? They fall for the silliest things… But hey, I agree, it’s not very well executed.



I can’t really rebuke this, since we’re fundamentally disagreeing on how we interpret and experience the story. I would just be repeating what I already said, just in so many different words…
But, to your point of how Anakin could on the one hand be the one who tells Windu about Palpatine’s true identity and then attack Windu and leave him at Palpatine’s mercy: Anakin did not intend for Windu to kill Palpatine, because he did believe that Palpatine could help him save Padmé. He was still loyal to the Jedi and was doing his duty, so much so that he obeys Windu’s orders to not intervene at first. It’s only when Windu threatens to kill Palpatine that Anakin is faced with an impossible choice and strikes. And once the deed is done, there is no going back, he must commit to Palpatine. What follows is the same giving into his darkness, the same release of anger and frustration, as when he avenged his mother death. Only at a much more terrible scale this time around.



Indeed, that is it, in a nutshell. Again, we’re at odds here, just as I can’t see and enjoy what you see and enjoy in TLJ.



Yes, and I think that is the tragedy of Dooku. Of all of Palpatine’s apprentices, he’s the one who was completely fooled.



I pretty much agree with what you’re saying here; in my post I was reacting to your assertion that there was more of a character arc for Kylo in just one movie (TFA) than for Anakin in all three. I am also hopeful that we will get a fully resolved character arc for Kylo with TROS.



Excellent discussion my friend.

Is anybody else reading this?

Yup, I am.....but AJ says what I think almost perfectly.....




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[xipotec]

Umm... MY fantasies? You need to get around the internet more often.... dozens and dozens of Finn-Poe articles from major outlets. I mean this is one quick example... from freakin' NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE no less, and from last month and in reference to TROS. No need to be shy about it.

Nothing "ambiguously" about that.

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Sachiel]

Yes, it is surprising. It is surprising that a Jedi who was supposed to have the benefit of incredibly keen foresight, and had outed the Sith traitor as being Palpatine, would turn around minutes later to do the bidding of that very same Sith traitor. Especially surprising given how obviously disapproving that anchor of his would be. Anakin always seems to just default to the "What have I done!?" self-analysis to predicate his evolving self-doubt and vulnerability. That's not good writing; that's lazy and amateurish. That's not in-depth character exploration, but rather an expedient device to excuse radical (and rushed) characterization changes.

Evolving Anakin from one movie to the next would be one thing, but taking a sharp pivot within minutes in the same film is a whole other deal. This guy we saw for the first half of the movie turned around and slaughtered younglings; he choked his wife (and the ridiculous irony of that speaks for itself); and he wanted to murder his mentor. Worse yet, his dialogue suggests that his willingness to murder Obi-Wan was because "if you're not with me, you're my enemy." Where the hell did that come from? How does that correlate with any established character motivations for his turning? How was that established?

Kinda like it was surprising how quick Luke decided to kill Ben? This guy we saw go against the judgment of his mentors to bring his father, Darth Freaking Vader back to the light and succeeded, turns around and is going to murder his nephew? Where the hell did that come from?

Are they still lying about a Finn-Poe romance. That's just false advertising.

Finn is totally gay. That hottie Rose kissed him and he made an 'ew' face.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Finn is totally gay. That hottie Rose kissed him and he made an 'ew' face.

That's because he wants the main hottie, not the portly friend.

 

[TaliBane]

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[abake]

That's because he wants the main hottie, not the portly friend.

The main hottie being that hunk Poe?

Just kidding. I really don't think they're setting up Poe and Finn to be romantically involved. Doesn't make much sense after setting up Rose and Finn, who was interested in Rey.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I really don't think they're setting up Poe and Finn to be romantically involved.

Of course not. It's just "good press" to be seen as "considering" it.

Besides, the gays have their man in Hux.

 

[TaliBane]

Of course not. It's just "good press" to be seen as "considering" it.

Besides, the gays have their man in Hux.

They have Finn/Poe AND Kylo/Hux?

 

[slikkerias]

...You kids [emoji851]

 

[aussiebottt]

 

[ajp4mgs]

Good points all, but remember that I’m always pointing to the balance there is in the characterization (not acting!). Like any kid (well, any person, actually), “little Ani” is not one-dimensional. You infer that to be believably/demonstrably resentful of his situation, he couldn’t/shouldn’t express happiness (“BOOM!”). I find that hard to believe. Kids are the most incredibly resilient beings, they can be living in dire situations, and yet be happy playing soccer with a ball made of rolled-up clothes and cardboard on a muddy field… Conversely, they can be extremely insightful. In my experience (having lived in third world countries with abysmal economic and social gaps for most of my life) I’ve seen kids “have it both ways”, as you put it, being very aware of their situation and yet finding joy in simple things (not that a Pod-racer was very simple, but you get my meaning). Again, Anakin shows his good-natured side, yet he also shows his fearful and resentful side (“you’re a slave?” “I’m a person and my name is Anakin”).

What I find lacking in Anakin goes well beyond the bad acting. It is primarily about characterization. When you keep bringing up the “I’m a person and my name is Anakin” line, you are implying that just that one line of dialogue is enough context to contrast the countless other examples of the carefree, and even jubilant, characteristics that end up defining the character. It wasn't just a scattered "Yippee!!" here and a "BOOM!!" there, it was a *consistent* portrayal of a well-adjusted, hopeful, and happy child. In the totality of his on-screen persona, that one line of dialogue amounts to little more than an outlier example of wounded pride. It can be dismissed that easily because of the absence of any similar sort of mindset presented at any other point during the film.

Again, I get the impression you’re looking for a more one-dimensional character. Put aside the acting for one moment and I think you’ll see that the arc of the character and the seeds to his future actions are all there, being developed from the start.

You suggest that I seem to want a one-dimensional character, but what I'm actually objecting to *is* the one-dimensional characterization that we got. That single line of dialogue ("I'm a person . . .") is one that you believe I'm overlooking, but you seem to be overlooking the other 99% of the portrayal throughout the movie. If you want Anakin's enslavement to be a foundational basis for his eventual turn to the dark side, it would have to be more evident in the on-screen characterization. It's not something that should be merely extrapolated or inferred from one single line of dialogue.

I'm not saying that little Anakin needed to be brooding all the time. But there have been plenty of similarly-aged characters/actors in the history of cinema who have conveyed a certain gravity and complexity that should have definitely been there in young Anakin's characterization. Sure, he could've had some carefree childlike exuberance and relatability, but not at the expense of exuding a maturity beyond his years. That added layer would've made his eventual fate more believable had something like resentment of his enslavement been more evident in his characterization. Instead, Lucas focused almost exclusively on conveying the goodness and innocence of Anakin (a deliberate intent to arouse sympathy). IMO, the end result was unnecessary cognitive dissonance.

I would argue that there is no instance of Jedi principles akin to a Prime Directive in any of the movies. So I find your interpretation more of a stretch than mine.

Very true, and a fair point.

Well, yes… my entire point is that the story being told is solid and makes sense. While I don’t find all of the acting and all of the dialogue as abysmal as you do, I’m trying to focus on the story and the character arcs.
Having said that, I think you’re focusing too much on certain aspects while ignoring the overall story. Unfortunately, you found Anakin irritating and that prevented you from seeing or appreciating anything else.

No sir, what I'm doing is evaluating what is conveyed on screen. When we sit in a theater, we're not evaluating the original screenplay. We sit there to take in storytelling that uses acting and dialogue (among other things like effects, cinematography, etc.) to present a coherent and effective story. I'm not saying that Lucas might not have had some seeds of a good story, but what sprouted from those seeds on screen was nothing but wilted and unsatisfying. Execution matters. To me, Anakin's arc (and the entire broader story of the PT) was not well crafted, nor was it executed effectively.

For example, I would argue that Anakin’s infatuation with Padmé, who as you rightly point out he’d only seen a couple of times ten years ago, is another beat in his character arc, underlining his obsessive personality. It shows you how emotionally immature he is.

I'm so glad you phrased it this way! Emotional immaturity, in my opinion, is not an appropriate context or foundation for why the Darth Vader we see in the OT makes for a logical progression of the Anakin that we see in the PT. You end up saying that the cold and calculating Darth Vader turned to the dark side because he was too emotionally immature. That's a problem for me. Nothing about the characterization of OT Vader suggests that he would have been so incredibly immature on an emotional level. A pronounced character flaw like that (into Anakin's twenties) wouldn't simply disappear altogether. In my mind, that contradicts the pure ruthlessness displayed in twenty years of dedicated servitude to Palpatine. It also ends up being a failure of Kenobi and the Jedi Order for not recognizing and addressing this alleged emotional immaturity. I think the transition to Vader needed a better rationale with a much better setup.

But, to your point of how Anakin could on the one hand be the one who tells Windu about Palpatine’s true identity and then attack Windu and leave him at Palpatine’s mercy: Anakin did not intend for Windu to kill Palpatine, because he did believe that Palpatine could help him save Padmé. He was still loyal to the Jedi and was doing his duty, so much so that he obeys Windu’s orders to not intervene at first. It’s only when Windu threatens to kill Palpatine that Anakin is faced with an impossible choice and strikes. And once the deed is done, there is no going back, he must commit to Palpatine. What follows is the same giving into his darkness, the same release of anger and frustration, as when he avenged his mother death. Only at a much more terrible scale this time around.

Then why did Anakin go to Palpatine's office after Mace directed him to stay behind? If Anakin didn't think that Mace might kill Palpatine, why did he go there to be present for the confrontation? If it was just to offer more backup for Mace, then his turn becomes all the more sudden and absurd. If it was because the possibility only dawned on him after Mace left, then we're right back to him going there to stop Windu at any cost.

Indeed, that is it, in a nutshell. Again, we’re at odds here, just as I can’t see and enjoy what you see and enjoy in TLJ.

Yep. We will remain enigmas to one another.

Excellent discussion my friend.

Is anybody else reading this?

Instead of articulating our opinions and having an actual discussion, we should've just been posting YouTube clips of other people's opinions.

If no one else is reading our discussion, that's fine with me. I enjoy the back-and-forth, as you always make your case incredibly well.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Kinda like it was surprising how quick Luke decided to kill Ben? This guy we saw go against the judgment of his mentors to bring his father, Darth Freaking Vader back to the light and succeeded, turns around and is going to murder his nephew? Where the hell did that come from?

I'm sure you remember ROTJ. What do you think Luke was doing when he yelled out, lit his lightsaber, and started swinging wildly after Vader threatened to turn Leia? Did Luke have murderous intent with those swings at his father, or was he just playing patty cake?

In Ben's hut that night, if Luke sensed his nephew's corruption (corrupted enough to slaughter his fellow students minutes later, eventually be capable of killing Han, and even help orchestrate the murder of billions of others), what is so objectionable and out of character about Luke having a *very brief* dark thought that he immediately felt ashamed for even thinking?

The point is that Luke didn't act on that brief impulse. That's the takeaway. He saw the potential horror (much worse than that of Vader turning Leia to the dark side) and chose to let his nephew live. Luke was always impulsive, but ends up doing the right thing. It was no different in TLJ.

 

[slikkerias]

I'm sure you remember ROTJ. What do you think Luke was doing when he yelled out, lit his lightsaber, and started swinging wildly after Vader threatened to turn Leia? Did Luke have murderous intent with those swings at his father, or was he just playing patty cake?

In Ben's hut that night, if Luke sensed his nephew's corruption (corrupted enough to slaughter his fellow students minutes later, eventually be capable of killing Han, and even help orchestrate the murder of billions of others), what is so objectionable and out of character about Luke having a *very brief* dark thought that he immediately felt ashamed for even thinking?

The point is that Luke didn't act on that brief impulse. That's the takeaway. He saw the potential horror (much worse than that of Vader turning Leia to the dark side) and chose to let his nephew live. Luke was always impulsive, but ends up doing the right thing. It was no different in TLJ.

Exactly. I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to grasp that Luke can act out of impulse when we’ve seen him do so before. He’s his fathers son for crying out loud

 

[Sachiel]

I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to grasp that what happened in ROTJ was under very different circumstances. He descended into hell to save his father, but the Emperor also needed to be destroyed. He didn't seem to be reaching his father and he was cornered. He was in a desperate situation.

There's a difference between having a "very brief dark thought" and what he actually did in TLJ. He worked himself up to killing Ben directly after seeing some bad vision, not even stopping to ponder it and went so far as to ignite his lightsaber. He huffed and he puffed and he was ready to blow Ben's house down. He was in a quiet hut, standing over his sleeping nephew. Not in the middle of a battle.

 

[slikkerias]

I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to grasp that what happened in ROTJ was under very different circumstances. He descended into hell to save his father, but the Emperor also needed to be destroyed. He didn't seem to be reaching his father and he was cornered. He was in a desperate situation.

There's a difference between having a "very brief dark thought" and what he actually did in TLJ. He worked himself up to killing Ben directly after seeing some bad vision, not even stopping to ponder it and went so far as to ignite his lightsaber. He huffed and he puffed and he was ready to blow Ben's house down. He was in a quiet hut, standing over his sleeping nephew. Not in the middle of a battle.

You make it sound like it was just any nephew... it was the nephew that was about to become Kylo Ren. He saw the deepest darkness he had seen since his father ...and this is how Luke reacted. [emoji2368]