Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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I'm unclear on what you've said. We're discussing the audience for the Disney SW films that have come out or are about to come out? You seem to be discussing films at some point in the future.

And I just made clear who the MAJORITY of ticket buyers are - how have you interpreted that as a male audience feeling alienated by female leads?

That same awful audience you seem to loathe - older and overwhelmingly male - are the same ones who whole-heartedly embraced movies like Terminator and Alien - enough that these became enduring, female-lead brand names that are still mined today. This is where these statements about older male fans hating to see female leads gets confusing. Leia was loved by male fans in 1977 just as much as female fans.:dunno

Where was the toxic push-back against Leia, Ripley and Sarah Connor?

I do not see how you come to the conclusion that I loathe myself and other older males... I just don’t find myself alienated by the new direction and I like that the new movies are aiming at a broader audience that Disney would like to be fans of the future. Let me know if you still don’t get it.
And what I mean is that movies made today are also made to create a new audience for the future and not only to please the fans and moviegoers that are expected to see it.
 
I do not see how you come to the conclusion that I loathe myself and other older males... I just don’t find myself alienated by the new direction and I like that the new movies are aiming at a broader audience that Disney would like to be fans of the future. Let me know if you still don’t get it.
And what I mean is that movies made today are also made to create a new audience for the future and not only to please the fans and moviegoers that are expected to see it.

You said "...if a male audience feels alienated by female leads..." - so I came to the conclusion based on you pulling that out of nowhere (ie there was nothing in what I wrote that in any way mentioned that.) That's what prompted the loathing comment. And self-loathing is a defining characteristic in Western societies currently.

And I'm confused by comments like "the new movies are aiming at a broader audience" - how did previous SW films not do that? Do you feel that previous SW films excluded a broader audience? That seems to be what you're saying.

And we're discussing the audience for films released in the current era - which is Disney's new sequel trilogy plus assorted standalones and TV series that occur in our current era. Making vague statements about "movies made today are also made to create a new audience for the future" is pointless. Obviously films have a video/streaming afterlife, and drive merchandising and fan desires, but 90% of that is in the few years after the initial release.

These releases "are made for" the majority who are buying tickets who, for better or for worse, despite aspirational audience groups the media and others like to highlight... are mostly older and male.

If you want to discuss SW in ten years or whatever - "fans of the future" - then maybe we should have that discussion in ten years, because then we'll know more about who they are. You are talking about aspirational audience groups (like many in the media do, part of that narrative of "who SW movies should be made for") while I'm talking about who the MAJORITY are that are ACTUALLY BUYING THE TICKETS for the movies CURRENTLY in theaters.

Are you getting that?:dunno
 
You said "...if a male audience feels alienated by female leads..." - so I came to the conclusion based on you pulling that out of nowhere (ie there was nothing in what I wrote that in any way mentioned that.) That's what prompted the loathing comment. And self-loathing is a defining characteristic in Western societies currently.

And I'm confused by comments like "the new movies are aiming at a broader audience" - how did previous SW films not do that? Do you feel that previous SW films excluded a broader audience? That seems to be what you're saying.

And we're discussing the audience for films released in the current era - which is Disney's new sequel trilogy plus assorted standalones and TV series that occur in our current era. Making vague statements about "movies made today are also made to create a new audience for the future" is pointless. Obviously films have a video/streaming afterlife, and drive merchandising and fan desires, but 90% of that is in the few years after the initial release.

These releases "are made for" the majority who are buying tickets who, for better or for worse, despite aspirational audience groups the media and others like to highlight... are mostly older and male.

If you want to discuss SW in ten years or whatever - "fans of the future" - then maybe we should have that discussion in ten years, because then we'll know more about who they are. You are talking about aspirational audience groups (like many in the media do, part of that narrative of "who SW movies should be made for") while I'm talking about who the MAJORITY are that are ACTUALLY BUYING THE TICKETS for the movies CURRENTLY in theaters.

Are you getting that?:dunno

I’m getting that, and I find it strange that you don’t get what I’m saying... well you might actually know what I mean , but you grab the chance to be condescending.
Whatever. It’s never worth it having this discussion anyways.
 
I’m getting that, and I find it strange that you don’t get what I’m saying... well you might actually know what I mean , but you grab the chance to be condescending.
Whatever. It’s never worth it having this discussion anyways.

That's what we say when the discussion didn't go the way they wanted it to.:lol

If you want to have a discussion about who the majority are that buy the tickets to Disney's SW films... and therefore (in truth) who the movies "should be made for" - let me know.
 
That's what we say when the discussion didn't go the way they wanted it to.:lol

If you want to have a discussion about who the majority are that buy the tickets to Disney's SW films... and therefore (in truth) who the movies "should be made for" - let me know.

Seriously? You insist on not getting my point, so why waste my time? If you wanna walk away from this feeling victorious it’s all good and fine with me.
But what I get from this is how frustrating it must be for you to know that you really get it and we do not. That you should be in charge and then all would be so much better because you know how to read the statistics and you are a representative of the audience they should really be pleasing! Lol
Well, I think, movies in a long term franchise like this shouldn’t just be made for the majority who buys tickets right now if you know that you want to have an audience who live an breath SW in 20 years. You will need to have a long term strategy that aims for that audience. That’s what I mean and apparently Lucasfilm and Disney has hired people who think sort of the same. They are probably able to read the same statistics as you.
 
Seriously? You insist on not getting my point, so why waste my time? If you wanna walk away from this feeling victorious it’s all good and fine with me.
But what I get from this is how frustrating it must be for you to know that you really get it and we do not. That you should be in charge and then all would be so much better because you know how to read the statistics and you are a representative of the audience they should really be pleasing! Lol
Well, I think, movies in a long term franchise like this shouldn’t just be made for the majority who buys tickets right now if you know that you want to have an audience who live an breath SW in 20 years. You will need to have a long term strategy that aims for that audience. That’s what I mean and apparently Lucasfilm and Disney has hired people who think sort of the same. They are probably able to read the same statistics as you.

Don't get all weird and personal. You... you... you... :gah::lol Always remember the Copenhagen Accord was founded on hazy, subjective facts and lots of arguing.:lecture:lol

But yeah, branded movies are like fashion brands - they design and make product for future brand loyalty in a couple of decades, not who's actually buying the clothes today. You have a huge future in sales.

So sure - ignore statistics, dismiss them even, and forget about who's actually the majority buying the tickets. Only what you feel and believe is the truth. These days you're in the majority on that and the media's majorly got your back too. At least... for now.

Here's a tip for those people Lucasfilm and Disney have hired: in order to ensure fandom continues tomorrow (in the way it has for the past 40+ years) it's a smart thing to keep the fan majority happy today. Oh, and that would include not insulting, dismissing, downplaying or marginalizing them.:lecture Kinda simple, right?

EDIT: And always try to remember how these discussions got going, and what the topic actually is - you seem to have forgotten that somewhere along the way.
 
None of our favorite franchises were designed to meet the needs of future generations. Though all them have been stretched into an eternity of reuse and resale... usually to the slow detriment of the franchise (or sometimes very fast like Matrix).

Lucas never dreamt that Star Wars would become what it did. In fact, its when you start trying to capitalize on future moneys that you start losing it.

The only one to come close was the 10 year plan of Marvel. But even that was piggybacking on a proven formula practiced and tested for 50 years.
 
Don't get all weird and personal. You... you... you... :gah::lol Always remember the Copenhagen Accord was founded on hazy, subjective facts and lots of arguing.:lecture:lol

But yeah, branded movies are like fashion brands - they design and make product for future brand loyalty in a couple of decades, not who's actually buying the clothes today. You have a huge future in sales.

So sure - ignore statistics, dismiss them even, and forget about who's actually the majority buying the tickets. Only what you feel and believe is the truth. These days you're in the majority on that and the media's majorly got your back too. At least... for now.

Here's a tip for those people Lucasfilm and Disney have hired: in order to ensure fandom continues tomorrow (in the way it has for the past 40+ years) it's a smart thing to keep the fan majority happy today. Oh, and that would include not insulting, dismissing, downplaying or marginalizing them.:lecture Kinda simple, right?

EDIT: And always try to remember how these discussions got going, and what the topic actually is - you seem to have forgotten that somewhere along the way.

Have you considered going into politics? ...and sorry, but maybe you should actually look into how the Copenhagen Accord was settled on before using it as an example. Those discussions weren’t pretty and they were deeply personal indeed! Actually that summit closed the mouth on many interesting and well founded theories like the start of the Many Worlds Theory - for many many years you would be considered an idiot if you questioned the Copenhagen Accord and made it more or less impossible to discuss the subject. For good and bad. Only recently some of those theories have gained ground again. A great story though.
And I apologize for coming off ‘personal’, but maybe laying off the condescending dad attitude towards a man at least your own age will avoid that.

I do not doubt that a movie can be a bigger hit right now if you give the world what the majority of moviegoers want. So far so good. But the world is changing and values are changing rapidly (with a few setbacks). It’s not the normal times. You might be smarter than the collective of brains working on SW these days, but maybe you are not. Time will tell.
 
What I find lacking in Anakin goes well beyond the bad acting. It is primarily about characterization. When you keep bringing up the “I’m a person and my name is Anakin” line, you are implying that just that one line of dialogue is enough context to contrast the countless other examples of the carefree, and even jubilant, characteristics that end up defining the character. It wasn't just a scattered "Yippee!!" here and a "BOOM!!" there, it was a *consistent* portrayal of a well-adjusted, hopeful, and happy child. In the totality of his on-screen persona, that one line of dialogue amounts to little more than an outlier example of wounded pride. It can be dismissed that easily because of the absence of any similar sort of mindset presented at any other point during the film.

The way I see it, “little Ani” has three important moments (that come to mind right now, I’m sure there’s other smaller moments) that present him as more than just a happy-go-lucky kid: the “I’m a person” outburst, his forlorn look aboard Padmé’s ship, when he and Padmé comfort each other in a way, and his test at the hands of the Jedi council (he looks definitely vulnerable, yet he snaps back at them “what does that have to do with anything”). In all instances he shows vulnerability, loneliness and a strong temper... That, to me, is enough to present a more rounded-out, complex character than just the happy kid you percieve.

You suggest that I seem to want a one-dimensional character, but what I'm actually objecting to *is* the one-dimensional characterization that we got. That single line of dialogue ("I'm a person . . .") is one that you believe I'm overlooking, but you seem to be overlooking the other 99% of the portrayal throughout the movie. If you want Anakin's enslavement to be a foundational basis for his eventual turn to the dark side, it would have to be more evident in the on-screen characterization. It's not something that should be merely extrapolated or inferred from one single line of dialogue.

I'm not saying that little Anakin needed to be brooding all the time. But there have been plenty of similarly-aged characters/actors in the history of cinema who have conveyed a certain gravity and complexity that should have definitely been there in young Anakin's characterization. Sure, he could've had some carefree childlike exuberance and relatability, but not at the expense of exuding a maturity beyond his years. That added layer would've made his eventual fate more believable had something like resentment of his enslavement been more evident in his characterization. Instead, Lucas focused almost exclusively on conveying the goodness and innocence of Anakin (a deliberate intent to arouse sympathy). IMO, the end result was unnecessary cognitive dissonance.

Actually, sometimes a single line of dialogue does define a character, though I’ve presented two more instances… Besides, isn’t enslavement in itself, as well as the entire situation Anakin is thrust in during TPM as a little, unprepared kid (leaving his mother behind, feeling the rejection of the council) enough to leave a lasting mark on any person and influence their later development?

Very true, and a fair point.



No sir, what I'm doing is evaluating what is conveyed on screen. When we sit in a theater, we're not evaluating the original screenplay. We sit there to take in storytelling that uses acting and dialogue (among other things like effects, cinematography, etc.) to present a coherent and effective story. I'm not saying that Lucas might not have had some seeds of a good story, but what sprouted from those seeds on screen was nothing but wilted and unsatisfying. Execution matters. To me, Anakin's arc (and the entire broader story of the PT) was not well crafted, nor was it executed effectively.

Well, there you go, to me, Anakin’s arc was well crafted though sometimes not executed so well…

I'm so glad you phrased it this way! Emotional immaturity, in my opinion, is not an appropriate context or foundation for why the Darth Vader we see in the OT makes for a logical progression of the Anakin that we see in the PT. You end up saying that the cold and calculating Darth Vader turned to the dark side because he was too emotionally immature. That's a problem for me. Nothing about the characterization of OT Vader suggests that he would have been so incredibly immature on an emotional level. A pronounced character flaw like that (into Anakin's twenties) wouldn't simply disappear altogether. In my mind, that contradicts the pure ruthlessness displayed in twenty years of dedicated servitude to Palpatine. It also ends up being a failure of Kenobi and the Jedi Order for not recognizing and addressing this alleged emotional immaturity. I think the transition to Vader needed a better rationale with a much better setup.

Hmmm… I was refering to his emotional immaturity from TPM to AOTC… the way he became infatuated with Padmé as a little kid and built her up throughout his teen years to this ideal that he couldn’t stop thinking about. Obviously, throughout AOTC, ROTS and the years leading to ANH he does evolve and mature.

Then why did Anakin go to Palpatine's office after Mace directed him to stay behind? If Anakin didn't think that Mace might kill Palpatine, why did he go there to be present for the confrontation? If it was just to offer more backup for Mace, then his turn becomes all the more sudden and absurd. If it was because the possibility only dawned on him after Mace left, then we're right back to him going there to stop Windu at any cost.

Maybe I didn’t explain myself well enough.
Here’s the way I see it: Anakin believes Palpatine is the only one who can help him save Padmé, but he has also discovered that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. This is already a screwed up situation: the one person who has always taken his side unconditionally and promises to save his beloved turns out to be the greatest villain ever. What does Anakin do? He does the right (yet difficult) thing: he goes to the Jedi Master who most distrusts him with the information about the Sith Lord. Windu instructs him to stay behind and not interfere, which Anakin initially obeys. However, he does sense (he is a powerful Jedi after all) that Windu might kill Palpatine, so he disobeys Windu and goes there to stop him from killing Palpatine. He didn’t go to help Windu, he went there to stop him from killing Palpatine, first arguing as a Jedi (“it’s not the Jedi way, he must stand trial”) and then, manipulated by Palpatine, from his own interest (“I need him!”).
Again, when he understands that Windu will kill Palpatine, he is faced with an impossible choice.

Yep. We will remain enigmas to one another. :lol



:lol :lol

Instead of articulating our opinions and having an actual discussion, we should've just been posting YouTube clips of other people's opinions. :monkey3

If no one else is reading our discussion, that's fine with me. I enjoy the back-and-forth, as you always make your case incredibly well. :hi5:

:hi5:
 
The way I see it, “little Ani” has three important moments (that come to mind right now, I’m sure there’s other smaller moments) that present him as more than just a happy-go-lucky kid: the “I’m a person” outburst, his forlorn look aboard Padmé’s ship, when he and Padmé comfort each other in a way, and his test at the hands of the Jedi council (he looks definitely vulnerable, yet he snaps back at them “what does that have to do with anything”). In all instances he shows vulnerability, loneliness and a strong temper... That, to me, is enough to present a more rounded-out, complex character than just the happy kid you percieve.

Anakin was out in space for the first time, and without his mother; of course he's going to feel lonely. That just makes him a normal child. And his little temper flare with the Jedi Council was also similarly typical of any child; kids even throw tantrums over next to nothing. These instances don't add any complexity to Anakin's character at all. They just re-affirm that he's a typical kid; seemingly unaffected by the gravity of circumstances he was born into and grew up with. He merely reacts to what is happening in the moment.

I ask you to recall portrayals of actual complex children in movies. Be it "Stand By Me," or "The Sixth Sense" (which came out the same year as TPM), or "The Professional" (ironic, isn't it?); those child characters didn't just benefit from good/great acting, they were visualized (by the creators/writers) to be complex, nuanced, and mature beyond their years. Had Anakin been portrayed that way in TPM, it would've laid a better foundation for his climactic turn.

Actually, sometimes a single line of dialogue does define a character, though I’ve presented two more instances… Besides, isn’t enslavement in itself, as well as the entire situation Anakin is thrust in during TPM as a little, unprepared kid (leaving his mother behind, feeling the rejection of the council) enough to leave a lasting mark on any person and influence their later development?

If you just take out the few bits of dialogue about slavery, and you showed Anakin's TPM scenes to anyone who didn't know anything about these films, I doubt that you'd get many people to suggest that Anakin's characterization had anything to do with enslavement, or that it had any real depth at all. He's portrayed as a happy kid; he's enthusiastic, kind, loving, good at everything, comfortable around strangers, sure of himself, and generally well-adjusted. And that was all intentional.

But, since I'm clearly not convincing you of how Anakin was intended to be portrayed in TPM, perhaps George Lucas himself can make this clearer. This excerpt is from a "Rolling Stone" interview with Lucas that was published in June 2005:

Well, a lot of people got very upset, saying he should’ve been this little demon kid. But the story is not about a guy who was born a monster – it’s about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that’s why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much.

"His undoing is that he loveth too much." That's the level of complexity that George had in mind for Anakin in the PT: he was too old to start Jedi training because he'd already learned to form attachments. That statement leaves no ambiguity about this character's portrayal, or what Lucas was aiming for. GL wanted a sweet young kid in TPM who we would feel sorry for. That's about it. He then gave him a turning point in AOTC when he couldn't save his mom. And his fear of that same fate happening with Padme led to his downfall.

Well, there you go, to me, Anakin’s arc was well crafted though sometimes not executed so well…

There's nothing about Anakin's upbringing in slavery, or his experiences as a Jedi knight, or his complexity of character that the PT was ever meant to convey as the reason why he became Darth Vader. He turned into Darth Vader because "he loveth too much." That's straight from the creator's mouth. And that's what disappoints me most about the prequels. Not the bad acting and horrible dialogue; not the effects; not even the stupidity and goofiness. It's the story; it's the rationalization for Anakin's turn to the dark side that I find ill-conceived, poorly-established, and too incongruous with Vader of the OT.

Had the young Anakin in TPM been shown to be resentful of the powerlessness of his enslavement, or jaded by it in some demonstrable way, then his turn later would actually have more of a foundational basis. TPM would've been worthwhile. If a true complexity had been intended, and executed well on screen, it would've made more sense. Instead, Lucas went out of his way to portray a joyful and innocent kid because he wanted Anakin's later loss (his mom) to create fear (of it happening to Padme). In TPM, *fear* is the only thing about Anakin that was established to predicate his eventual turn . . . because "he loveth too much."
 
To quote RJ, the PT is about how fear can turn normal, good people into fascists. So if Anakin came off as normal and good, I guess it's "mission accomplished". :chase

(If anything, his only fault was getting trained too late in life, after he had made attachments to his mother and Padme).
 
You guys are making way too much of an ancient cliché -- the great irony of a character who becomes the very thing which he hates.

Yes, Anakin is just like Capt Nemo. And many other characters. His is just written so poorly. But at its essence, like all of Star Wars, it is a borrowed theme. And a great one at that. Anakin's tragedy is just drawn out way too long spanning 20 years in three movies and many cartoons.
 
Anakin was out in space for the first time, and without his mother; of course he's going to feel lonely. That just makes him a normal child. And his little temper flare with the Jedi Council was also similarly typical of any child; kids even throw tantrums over next to nothing. These instances don't add any complexity to Anakin's character at all. They just re-affirm that he's a typical kid; seemingly unaffected by the gravity of circumstances he was born into and grew up with. He merely reacts to what is happening in the moment.

I ask you to recall portrayals of actual complex children in movies. Be it "Stand By Me," or "The Sixth Sense" (which came out the same year as TPM), or "The Professional" (ironic, isn't it?); those child characters didn't just benefit from good/great acting, they were visualized (by the creators/writers) to be complex, nuanced, and mature beyond their years. Had Anakin been portrayed that way in TPM, it would've laid a better foundation for his climactic turn.



If you just take out the few bits of dialogue about slavery, and you showed Anakin's TPM scenes to anyone who didn't know anything about these films, I doubt that you'd get many people to suggest that Anakin's characterization had anything to do with enslavement, or that it had any real depth at all. He's portrayed as a happy kid; he's enthusiastic, kind, loving, good at everything, comfortable around strangers, sure of himself, and generally well-adjusted. And that was all intentional.

But, since I'm clearly not convincing you of how Anakin was intended to be portrayed in TPM, perhaps George Lucas himself can make this clearer. This excerpt is from a "Rolling Stone" interview with Lucas that was published in June 2005:



"His undoing is that he loveth too much." That's the level of complexity that George had in mind for Anakin in the PT: he was too old to start Jedi training because he'd already learned to form attachments. That statement leaves no ambiguity about this character's portrayal, or what Lucas was aiming for. GL wanted a sweet young kid in TPM who we would feel sorry for. That's about it. He then gave him a turning point in AOTC when he couldn't save his mom. And his fear of that same fate happening with Padme led to his downfall.



There's nothing about Anakin's upbringing in slavery, or his experiences as a Jedi knight, or his complexity of character that the PT was ever meant to convey as the reason why he became Darth Vader. He turned into Darth Vader because "he loveth too much." That's straight from the creator's mouth. And that's what disappoints me most about the prequels. Not the bad acting and horrible dialogue; not the effects; not even the stupidity and goofiness. It's the story; it's the rationalization for Anakin's turn to the dark side that I find ill-conceived, poorly-established, and too incongruous with Vader of the OT.

Had the young Anakin in TPM been shown to be resentful of the powerlessness of his enslavement, or jaded by it in some demonstrable way, then his turn later would actually have more of a foundational basis. TPM would've been worthwhile. If a true complexity had been intended, and executed well on screen, it would've made more sense. Instead, Lucas went out of his way to portray a joyful and innocent kid because he wanted Anakin's later loss (his mom) to create fear (of it happening to Padme). In TPM, *fear* is the only thing about Anakin that was established to predicate his eventual turn . . . because "he loveth too much."

:lol

I think we're just too entrenched in our beliefs!
It's been a good conversation :clap:duff

BTW, I like the "he loveth too much" explanation, it says a lot about Anakin, the Jedi and the Jedi order.
 
When rose tico said to finn, That's how we're going to win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love." Jar Jar Binks scratched his balls and said, "Hell even I didn't say anything that laughably dumb and cringe-inducing."
 
When rose tico said to finn, That's how we're going to win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love." Jar Jar Binks scratched his balls and said, "Hell even I didn't say anything that laughably dumb and cringe-inducing."

Not that this couldn’t be phrased better, but what she means is not far from something Yoda would say:
Hate is the path to the dark side and if you fight out of rage and hate, the war will become about the fight and you will end up being as bad as your opponent- become the very thing you’re trying to fight.
If you always keep in mind why you fight, to save what is important to you - freedom, rights, love - you can actually maybe end up accomplishing those things fighting.
It’s pretty much what the ‘good side’ stands for in all the movies. Always know what you’re fighting for. The Republic forgot that before and doing the PT and it turned into the Empire because of fear and hate. If a Jedi looses sight of what they fight for, what is right and what is wrong, and fight out of hate they turn to the dark side. Pretty much what SW is about.
 
Not that this couldn’t be phrased better, but what she means is not far from something Yoda would say:
Hate is the path to the dark side and if you fight out of rage and hate, the war will become about the fight and you will end up being as bad as your opponent- become the very thing you’re trying to fight.
If you always keep in mind why you fight, to save what is important to you - freedom, rights, love - you can actually maybe end up accomplishing those things fighting.
It’s pretty much what the ‘good side’ stands for in all the movies. Always know what you’re fighting for. The Republic forgot that before and doing the PT and it turned into the Empire because of fear and hate. If a Jedi looses sight of what they fight for, what is right and what is wrong, and fight out of hate they turn to the dark side. Pretty much what SW is about.

While I find the entire scene spectacularly bad, I agree with everything you’ve said.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
 
Not that this couldn’t be phrased better, but what she means is not far from something Yoda would say:
Hate is the path to the dark side and if you fight out of rage and hate, the war will become about the fight and you will end up being as bad as your opponent- become the very thing you’re trying to fight.
If you always keep in mind why you fight, to save what is important to you - freedom, rights, love - you can actually maybe end up accomplishing those things fighting.
It’s pretty much what the ‘good side’ stands for in all the movies. Always know what you’re fighting for. The Republic forgot that before and doing the PT and it turned into the Empire because of fear and hate. If a Jedi looses sight of what they fight for, what is right and what is wrong, and fight out of hate they turn to the dark side. Pretty much what SW is about.

I'd take anything Anakin says in the prequel trilogy over anything said in the sequel trilogy. And I'm not even a big fan of the prequels.
 
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