Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Khev]

Good call on the Falcon floating away from the Star Destroyer with all the garbage. There's the visual demonstration that TaliBane wanted. Honestly I don't know why anyone wouldn't assume that OT SW always featured Zero Gravity. What would the alternative be, that someone exits a spacecraft and endlessly "falls" in a random direction? Also in that Grievous clip you posted they show that even after he's outside and pulls himself back to the ship he doesn't merely stand on the hull, he clutches it with his clawed feet to keep from floating away.

 

[Matt S]

The Last Jedi feels like a giant 'FU' from Kathleen Kennedy to fans of the original trilogy - mostly due to how they handled Luke & Admiral Ackbar. Until she and her ilk steps down from Lucasfilm, I have no hope for star wars movies.

The fact that Galaxy's Edge is underperforming tells me I am not alone with this sentiment.

 

[TaliBane]

You are pretty impossible to have a real discussion with. You try to dumb my comments down to make me look like an idiot. Are you really that afraid of being questioned?
You are quite aware that is of course not what I mean by my comment - and of course you know that ‘space movies’ for kids were very different back then. You really think I’m that ignorant? That I don’t know that kids back then knew about this stuff? They just didn’t expect or demanded it in their adventure movies. You really don’t think that the expectations have changed since 1977? Or you just need to dumb my opinions down to avoid agreeing with something I said? ... but why do I even bother.

You got us again, slik. And it works every time.

 

[Prime Clone]

The original discussion over Carrie Poppins was whether her lungs should have exploded. Turned out, unless she took a deep breath, they shouldn't.

Also, in the (canon) comics, Dr Aphra gets "spaced" by Vader and survives.

 

[TaliBane]

That wasn't the only "floating" comment Han made in the OT. In fact, the other time he mentions "float away" is more relevant because he actually puts the concept of zero-g to use when he releases the Falcon from the Star Destroyer and drifts through space along with "the rest of the garbage."

And if you want more proof that space has zero gravity in SW, and during the OT, just look to spacetroopers. Stormtroopers equipped for zero-g environments. Pretty self-explanatory.



As far as zero-g being "un-OT" I would point to the examples I gave above. And as to whether Lucas applied the "science" concept of space in the PT, Khev nailed that one:

Good call on the Falcon floating away from the Star Destroyer with all the garbage. There's the visual demonstration that TaliBane wanted. Honestly I don't know why anyone wouldn't assume that OT SW always featured Zero Gravity. What would the alternative be, that someone exits a spacecraft and endlessly "falls" in a random direction? Also in that Grievous clip you posted they show that even after he's outside and pulls himself back to the ship he doesn't merely stand on the hull, he clutches it with his clawed feet to keep from floating away.

Oh, I never doubted that zero-g exists in space in OT SW - it's obvious, I mean what's the alternative, that there's gravity in open space, how else to explain a spaceship traveling by with nothing underneath it - it's about how human/zero-g interaction works is what I'm questioning. Zero-g is simply a benign part of the "backdrop."

It's obviously there in space in OT SW. We focus on the garbage but look at the asteroid chase. They are all "floating" and tumbling, not just kind of still, clearly in zero-g (so Han's comment is just an extension of what we see.) The SFX explosion of the death star was filmed looking straight up so debris wouldn't fall downward as if acted on by gravity.

What I'm talking about is that we NEVER see people, or objects alongside people (ie interiors, docking bays, even people suited up and outside in space etc) where they interact with zero-g, even in suits. There are no "space walks" with people floating. It's never seen or even suggested in OT SW beyond spaceships/objects traveling in space, even where it COULD or SHOULD have been shown.

And yes, that's in three two hour movies. You would think a saga set in space would have shown it, even once. But it doesn't.

It's part of the rules of the OT, like no buttons. You don't show characters interacting with zero-g AT ALL and where it should be present - like the asteroid cave (which should either be zero-g or low gravity) - you ignore it.

As I said space, yes with an element of zero-g, is seen in OT SW but it ends at the windows, bay doors or spacecraft walls. It's never seen, or even remotely hinted at, in direct connection to people. That's where to me the Leia floating in zero-g, and stuff floating alongside her INSIDE, violate the rules set up in the OT.

And not sure what you mean about the spacetroopers - they are simply stormtroopers with an Imperial version of the rebreather Han wears in the asteroid cave clipped to their armor in the field of gravity generated by the DS (though outside.) Zero-g doesn't really come into play, and stormies wear suits no matter what.

And again - I don't want to bring the PT into this because as I mentioned, the OT is the SW gold standard that the PT and ST (and other later SW entities) have tried to recreate or graft onto, Lucas or no Lucas.

The OT is the bible, the rest are Dan Brown novels.

 

[abake]

Well, you can survive explosive decompression, but you‘ve got precious little time.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

 

[screamingmetal]

Well, you can survive explosive decompression, but you‘ve got precious little time.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

When it comes down to it that's what really bothers me about that whole scene, she survived the explosion in the most goofy of ways. She should've died right then and there, but I feel Kennedy insisted that she survive because out of all the OT characters, Kennedy liked Leia the most.

 

[abake]

Yeah well, I'm no fan of the scene, I think it was very poorly written and directed.
Obviously it meant to show that Leia was powerful in the Force, but to me it seems misguided. Still, just from the inner SW logic, one could argue that since you can stay conscious in vacuum for up to 10 seconds (or more), and survive even after a minute in vacuum, and since Leia is so powerful in the Force, she could actually resuscitate and will herself to float back into the ship.
Does it work for me? No, but you can build the argument around it.

 

[abake]

Oh, and BTW, I have no problem with Piett not being sucked out into space... As I see it, the circumstances are quite different: in Piett's case, an A-Wing fighter crashes into the bridge, and we clearly see that both Piett and the other officer are jumping away from the window as the fighter crashes into it. As a matter of fact, we can see part of the hull of the fighter still moving at high velocity into the bridge as the scene cuts to an exterior shot of the Executor's bridge blowing up (flames actually shooting out of the hole in the structure). So there is no time to see if Piett's (probably vaporized) remains are sucked out into space, but we do see that the flames shoot out of the hole.
In Leia's case, the bridge gets a direct hit from Kylo Ren's torpedoes (if I'm not mistaken) which blow a hole in the structure. In the scene Leia is in the foreground, quite far away from the window, and when the torpedoes hit she's is pushed forward by the force of the explosion and then sucked out into space. Which the camera stays in place to capture.

 

[rushmore223]

Oh, and BTW, I have no problem with Piett not being sucked out into space... As I see it, the circumstances are quite different: in Piett's case, an A-Wing fighter crashes into the bridge, and we clearly see that both Piett and the other officer are jumping away from the window as the fighter crashes into it. As a matter of fact, we can see part of the hull of the fighter still moving at high velocity into the bridge as the scene cuts to an exterior shot of the Executor's bridge blowing up (flames actually shooting out of the hole in the structure). So there is no time to see if Piett's (probably vaporized) remains are sucked out into space, but we do see that the flames shoot out of the hole.
In Leia's case, the bridge gets a direct hit from Kylo Ren's torpedoes (if I'm not mistaken) which blow a hole in the structure. In the scene Leia is in the foreground, quite far away from the window, and when the torpedoes hit she's is pushed forward by the force of the explosion and then sucked out into space. Which the camera stays in place to capture.

Some other pilots torpedoes, Kylo relented at the last moment.

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[Khev]

Oh, I never doubted that zero-g exists in space in OT SW - it's obvious, I mean what's the alternative, that there's gravity in open space, how else to explain a spaceship traveling by with nothing underneath it - it's about how human/zero-g interaction works is what I'm questioning. Zero-g is simply a benign part of the "backdrop."

It's obviously there in space in OT SW. We focus on the garbage but look at the asteroid chase. They are all "floating" and tumbling, not just kind of still, clearly in zero-g (so Han's comment is just an extension of what we see.) The SFX explosion of the death star was filmed looking straight up so debris wouldn't fall downward as if acted on by gravity.

What I'm talking about is that we NEVER see people, or objects alongside people (ie interiors, docking bays, even people suited up and outside in space etc) where they interact with zero-g, even in suits. There are no "space walks" with people floating. It's never seen or even suggested in OT SW beyond spaceships/objects traveling in space, even where it COULD or SHOULD have been shown.

And yes, that's in three two hour movies. You would think a saga set in space would have shown it, even once. But it doesn't.

It's part of the rules of the OT, like no buttons. You don't show characters interacting with zero-g AT ALL and where it should be present - like the asteroid cave (which should either be zero-g or low gravity) - you ignore it.

As I said space, yes with an element of zero-g, is seen in OT SW but it ends at the windows, bay doors or spacecraft walls. It's never seen, or even remotely hinted at, in direct connection to people. That's where to me the Leia floating in zero-g, and stuff floating alongside her INSIDE, violate the rules set up in the OT.

And not sure what you mean about the spacetroopers - they are simply stormtroopers with an Imperial version of the rebreather Han wears in the asteroid cave clipped to their armor in the field of gravity generated by the DS (though outside.) Zero-g doesn't really come into play, and stormies wear suits no matter what.

And again - I don't want to bring the PT into this because as I mentioned, the OT is the SW gold standard that the PT and ST (and other later SW entities) have tried to recreate or graft onto, Lucas or no Lucas.

The OT is the bible, the rest are Dan Brown novels.

I think I see where you're coming from. Basically that yes Zero-G space does exist in SW but that it's "wrong" to show characters in Zero-G environments even though it's technically possible. Kind of like we all know that the characters go to the bathroom but SW isn't about showing us those details.

We have seen an actual character in Zero-G prior to TLJ though. The one clone pilot that gets blown out of his ARC-170 in ROTS drifts past Anakin's fighter without falling to the planet below. The split second shot of the flaming TIE pilot in ESB also entered the vacuum of space though the camera didn't linger on him long enough to see his corpse drifting for any length of time.

I get holding the OT as the gold standard for what is and isn't allowed in a SW film. Though just the fact that ROTJ is included in that really diminishes a LOT of scrutiny for anything that follows. Which is why the gold standard for me is RO/SW/ESB and not SW/ESB/ROTJ. But one thing worth recognizing is that it's all arbitrary and it's all subjective. You saying that ROTS physics don't count because it's in the PT is fine but again it's completely arbitrary to say that entire episodes "don't count." Now I'm not saying that they do count, because I have my own canon as well, but it *is* arbitrary and subjective to say that they don't nonetheless.

For *years* many people dismissed elements of ROTJ until the PT came along and made people suddenly say "um okay ewoks and Leia being the other are cool now" lol. So when a SW sequel simply acknowledges physics or story elements from *any* previous episode I don't think anyone can validly fault the new film for that. Leia flying out into space does echo the visuals of Grievous and Luke going through the window in Cloud City. Her floating through space does in fact echo the one clone pilot doing the same. TLJ didn't add elements to the Saga in that particular instance that were previously unheard of or even unrepresented on film. It was just kind of a lame scene on it's own, lol.

It's like how no one complains that TLJ made Darth a title. Luke openly references Darth Sidious but I've not seen a single person blame TLJ for that. It's because the blame falls on TPM for introducing Darth Maul (and then AOTC for introducing Darth Tyrannus and Darth Sidious.) TLJ simply paid reference to those elements. Which is what it did with floating Leia as well.

Again, not saying that I agree with Leia Poppins or like it, but to dismiss it as "un-Star Wars" is, while a valid enough opinion, totally subjective and arbitrary and is a point that can really only be defended by first saying "well *I* ignore these elements of the Saga so therefore the fragmented version of the story that I consider canon doesn't line up with the Leia scene." Which is fine. But not anything that TLJ can be faulted for.

If you want to pick on something that really does seem to fly in the face (no pun intended) of everything that came before then I'd call out something like the Holdo maneuver.

 

[ajp4mgs]

And not sure what you mean about the spacetroopers - they are simply stormtroopers with an Imperial version of the rebreather Han wears in the asteroid cave clipped to their armor in the field of gravity generated by the DS (though outside.) Zero-g doesn't really come into play, and stormies wear suits no matter what.

My point with spacetroopers is that they're stationed outside (in space), and are clearly wearing equipment that differentiates them from regular stormtroopers. The implication (at least to me) is that humans being out in space in SW would mean having to account for lack of atmosphere. And since a lack of atmosphere in space would be due to lack of gravity, equipping spacetroopers differently than stormtroopers implies zero-g conditions in SW space. That's why I stated that it's self-explanatory. But I guess it wasn't.

Once you establish that space itself is a zero-g environment, then all of the other consequences of zero-g would also apply to human interactions with it. The fact that we don't see any human interactions with it in the OT doesn't mean that conventional zero-g consequences wouldn't apply in a scenario like the TLJ Leia scene. In fact, I think it's the opposite: the floating junk in ESB, and the spacetroopers in ANH, would mean that the zero-g conditions we see in that TLJ scene *should* be there. The TLJ Leia scene was bad for other reasons.

And again - I don't want to bring the PT into this because as I mentioned, the OT is the SW gold standard that the PT and ST (and other later SW entities) have tried to recreate or graft onto, Lucas or no Lucas.

The OT is the bible, the rest are Dan Brown novels.

I think it'd be silly to avoid showing the effects of zero gravity on humans just because the OT didn't set a precedent by having any such scenario play out on screen. The only OT scene that would've/should've demonstrated it is the asteroid/slug mynock hunt, but I don't think the oversight in that case should be a mandate for avoiding zero-g in SW films going forward. And Lucas seemingly feeling that way when he made the PT (the Grievous hull breach scene) is something that I *do* think is relevant.

It would've been much more of a pain in the ass to replicate zero-g/human interactions in the era when the OT was filmed. By the time of the PT, the same guy who made the "gospel of SW" with the OT incorporated some bits of sci-fi into his next trilogy because that more modern era had made doing so easier. So, having elements that follow actual laws of real-world science in a SW film is not a betrayal of any "rules" set by the OT. It's just an indication that some things are more convenient and practical nowadays when filming movies set in space.

When it comes down to it that's what really bothers me about that whole scene, she survived the explosion in the most goofy of ways. She should've died right then and there, but I feel Kennedy insisted that she survive because out of all the OT characters, Kennedy liked Leia the most.

Leia's character was going to survive until Episode 9 no matter what. Shortly after the release of TFA, it started being reported that Ep7 would focus more on Han/Harrison, Ep8 would focus more on Luke/Mark, and Ep9 would focus more on Leia/Carrie. So, Leia was supposed to survive TLJ all along (and probably die in Ep9).

Having Leia involved in the explosion was just a story-driven means to an end that served two purposes. The first purpose was to put her in a coma in order to clear the way for character-progression plots involving Poe, Finn, and Luke. Poe wouldn't have cause to transition into being more of a leader if General Organa was around to continue leading the Resistance. Finn wouldn't have headed to the escape pod if Leia was still in charge and in possession of Rey's tracking beacon. And Luke wouldn't have realized Leia's peril when he reconnected with the Force and "saw" her in that condition. Luke immediately ran out in search of Rey at that point to go back with her (before seeing Rey with Kylo changed his mind yet again).

The second purpose was to show that Leia could use the Force. In the sequel outline/treatment that George Lucas presented back in 2013, Leia was supposed to have learned how to use the Force (taught by Luke) in the years following ROTJ. TFA didn't touch on that at all, but the idea was obviously something that Rian Johnson wanted to preserve and establish in his film. Having her Force abilities get shown for the first time in a desperate life-or-death situation (with no other way to survive) probably seemed like the best way to introduce it. That's why Leia was always meant to survive the explosion.

Perhaps Episode 9 (with its intended focus on Leia) would've touched on her being taught by Luke. Unfortunately, we'll never know now.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think I see where you're coming from. Basically that yes Zero-G space does exist in SW but that it's "wrong" to show characters in Zero-G environments even though it's technically possible. Kind of like we all know that the characters go to the bathroom but SW isn't about showing us those details.

We have seen an actual character in Zero-G prior to TLJ though. The one clone pilot that gets blown out of his ARC-170 in ROTS drifts past Anakin's fighter without falling to the planet below. The split second shot of the flaming TIE pilot in ESB also entered the vacuum of space though the camera didn't linger on him long enough to see his corpse drifting for any length of time.

I get holding the OT as the gold standard for what is and isn't allowed in a SW film. Though just the fact that ROTJ is included in that really diminishes a LOT of scrutiny for anything that follows. Which is why the gold standard for me is RO/SW/ESB and not SW/ESB/ROTJ. But one thing worth recognizing is that it's all arbitrary and it's all subjective. You saying that ROTS physics don't count because it's in the PT is fine but again it's completely arbitrary to say that entire episodes "don't count." Now I'm not saying that they do count, because I have my own canon as well, but it *is* arbitrary and subjective to say that they don't nonetheless.

For *years* many people dismissed elements of ROTJ until the PT came along and made people suddenly say "um okay ewoks and Leia being the other are cool now" lol. So when a SW sequel simply acknowledges physics or story elements from *any* previous episode I don't think anyone can validly fault the new film for that. Leia flying out into space does echo the visuals of Grievous and Luke going through the window in Cloud City. Her floating through space does in fact echo the one clone pilot doing the same. TLJ didn't add elements to the Saga in that particular instance that were previously unheard of or even unrepresented on film. It was just kind of a lame scene on it's own, lol.

It's like how no one complains that TLJ made Darth a title. Luke openly references Darth Sidious but I've not seen a single person blame TLJ for that. It's because the blame falls on TPM for introducing Darth Maul (and then AOTC for introducing Darth Tyrannus and Darth Sidious.) TLJ simply paid reference to those elements. Which is what it did with floating Leia as well.

Again, not saying that I agree with Leia Poppins or like it, but to dismiss it as "un-Star Wars" is, while a valid enough opinion, totally subjective and arbitrary and is a point that can really only be defended by first saying "well *I* ignore these elements of the Saga so therefore the fragmented version of the story that I consider canon doesn't line up with the Leia scene." Which is fine. But not anything that TLJ can be faulted for.

I agree with all points. (minus the ROTJ slight)

If you want to pick on something that really does seem to fly in the face (no pun intended) of everything that came before then I'd call out something like the Holdo maneuver.

Dammit! There goes the full agreement.

 

[Khev]

My point with spacetroopers is that they're stationed outside (in space), and are clearly wearing equipment that differentiates them from regular stormtroopers. The implication (at least to me) is that humans being out in space in SW would mean having to account for lack of atmosphere. And since a lack of atmosphere in space would be due to lack of gravity, equipping spacetroopers differently than stormtroopers implies zero-g conditions in SW space. That's why I stated that it's self-explanatory. But I guess it wasn't.

I actually have a different take on the "Spacetroopers" than both of you. I know they were "outside" the Death Star with cool new breathing apparatuses but I don't know that those two troopers are the best examples of what being in the vacuum of space is like in SW. The reason being that we all accept that the DS had it's own atmosphere contained by a magnetic field (which allowed the hangar that the Falcon landed in to be "open air.") So then the question becomes how far out from the DS does the atmosphere extend?

Two scenes suggest that it goes out pretty far. The first was the X-Wing approach. The fighters experience turbulence apparently miles away from the DS as they pass through the magnetic field. And then the other scene was when Porkins was about to go down Biggs told him to eject--with no protective space suit or breathing apparatus whatsoever.

So I don't think that those two Spacetroopers were standing in Zero-G or the vacuum of space. They could have been gearing up for some deep space expedition for all we know but otherwise the rest of the film seems to suggest that the DS is surrounded by breathable air and normal gravity.

 

[Khev]

I agree with all points. (minus the ROTJ slight)



Dammit! There goes the full agreement.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I actually have a different take on the "Spacetroopers" than both of you. I know they were "outside" the Death Star with cool new breathing apparatuses but I don't know that those two troopers are the best examples of what being in the vacuum of space is like in SW. The reason being that we all accept that the DS had it's own atmosphere contained by a magnetic field (which allowed the hangar that the Falcon landed in to be "open air.") So then the question becomes how far out from the DS does the atmosphere extend?

Two scenes suggest that it goes out pretty far. The first was the X-Wing approach. The fighters experience turbulence apparently miles away from the DS as they pass through the magnetic field. And then the other scene was when Porkins was about to go down Biggs told him to eject--with no protective space suit or breathing apparatus whatsoever.

So I don't think that those two Spacetroopers were standing in Zero-G or the vacuum of space. They could have been gearing up for some deep space expedition for all we know but otherwise the rest of the film seems to suggest that the DS is surrounded by breathable air and normal gravity.

Well, since the spacetroopers weren't floating out there, your scenario makes sense. I'm good with that.

But I think the intent of equipping spacetroopers with what amounts to equipment that compensates for zero-g conditions still stands. Like you said, maybe they occasionally had to venture out farther into actual space.

 

[a-dev]

And then the other scene was when Porkins was about to go down Biggs told him to eject--with no protective space suit or breathing apparatus whatsoever.

Hahah. Man, that never occurred to me before. How long have I been watching that film.

 

[Khev]

I agree with all points. (minus the ROTJ slight)

Dammit! There goes the full agreement.

Two quick things: I do actually love ROTJ, warts and all. And it's 100% canon for me now.

Regarding Holdo, how do you reconcile what she did with the previous films? In your mind could anyone have obliterated any Star Destroyer, Super Star Destroyer, or even Death Star simply by sending a craft through it at lightspeed?

Hahah. Man, that never occurred to me before. How long have I been watching that film.

I know right. It's funny how certain things can jump out years or even decades later. I know that it's happened to me on more than one occasion.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I do actually love ROTJ, warts and all. And it's 100% canon for me now.

Sweet! I'm glad you don't discount ROTJ for its flaws. The ANH/ESB standard can be a blessing and a curse in that respect.

Regarding Holdo, how do you reconcile what she did with the previous films? In your mind could anyone have obliterated any Star Destroyer, Super Star Destroyer, or even Death Star simply by sending a craft through it at lightspeed?

I'm glad you asked. I can get into more of the actual science aspect (if you want) that would make it virtually a non-option in previous contexts/scenarios, but I'll try to keep it simpler here first.

In order for the "Holdo Manuever" to work, the target (Snoke's ship in this case), would need to be in the path of a pre-established hyperspace route. The Death Star, for instance, would not be in the middle of a hyperspace route. Therefore, the opportunity to employ hyperspace kamikaze has that prerequisite because that's how hyperspace travel works (pre-established "lanes" that take you through another dimension of space, but that still need to account for "shadows" of large objects that affect gravitational pulls).*

Also, the kamikaze ship/vessel would need to be large enough to do more than simply cause a minor disruption/damage to the larger target. The Raddus was large enough, but not many other Resistance/Rebellion vessels would be. For someone earlier in the SW timeline to have used the Holdo maneuver against a target as large as a Star Destroyer, he/she would need to sacrifice a cruiser-class starship. That's too costly for a "puny band" of rebellion/resistance fighters. Plus, the target would still need to be lured into a hyperspace lane.

Lastly, the target needs to be relatively still. It can't be a case where a target ship/station is moving at an angle from the the attacking vessel. It would need to be straight-on in order to avoid absurd-level calculations.

The Holdo Manuever had the perfect recipe that wouldn't come up in virtually any other scenario. 1.) a target in the middle of a pre-calculated hyperspace route, 2.) the target moving in a straight and direct line through that route, 3.) size of the attacking vessel being large enough for it to work, and 4.) having no more use for the ship/asset after doing it, and having no other choice.

*Hyperspace routes being the means for lightspeed travel in SW is why one of the other objections/criticisms of TLJ that I've seen on those stupid YouTube videos drives me crazy. "Why didn't the FO just send a ship through hyperspace to get in front of the Raddus?" Because that's not how SW hyperspace works, dammit! It's not like Nightcrawler "bamfing" in the X-Men universe.

 

[abake]

Some other pilots torpedoes, Kylo relented at the last moment.

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I stand corrected.