Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[slikkerias]

Sweet! I'm glad you don't discount ROTJ for its flaws. The ANH/ESB standard can be a blessing and a curse in that respect.



I'm glad you asked. I can get into more of the actual science aspect (if you want) that would make it virtually a non-option in previous contexts/scenarios, but I'll try to keep it simpler here first.

In order for the "Holdo Manuever" to work, the target (Snoke's ship in this case), would need to be in the path of a pre-established hyperspace route. The Death Star, for instance, would not be in the middle of a hyperspace route. Therefore, the opportunity to employ hyperspace kamikaze has that prerequisite because that's how hyperspace travel works (pre-established "lanes" that take you through another dimension of space, but that still need to account for "shadows" of large objects that affect gravitational pulls).*

Also, the kamikaze ship/vessel would need to be large enough to do more than simply cause a minor disruption/damage to the larger target. The Raddus was large enough, but not many other Resistance/Rebellion vessels would be. For someone earlier in the SW timeline to have used the Holdo maneuver against a target as large as a Star Destroyer, he/she would need to sacrifice a cruiser-class starship. That's too costly for a "puny band" of rebellion/resistance fighters. Plus, the target would still need to be lured into a hyperspace lane.

Lastly, the target needs to be relatively still. It can't be a case where a target ship/station is moving at an angle from the the attacking vessel. It would need to be straight-on in order to avoid absurd-level calculations.

The Holdo Manuever had the perfect recipe that wouldn't come up in virtually any other scenario. 1.) a target in the middle of a pre-calculated hyperspace route, 2.) the target moving in a straight and direct line through that route, 3.) size of the attacking vessel being large enough for it to work, and 4.) having no more use for the ship/asset after doing it, and having no other choice.

*Hyperspace routes being the means for lightspeed travel in SW is why one of the other objections/criticisms of TLJ that I've seen on those stupid YouTube videos drives me crazy. "Why didn't the FO just send a ship through hyperspace to get in front of the Raddus?" Because that's not how SW hyperspace works, dammit! It's not like Nightcrawler "bamfing" in the X-Men universe.

[emoji122]

 

[Bravomite]

When was it established in the film that the first order were sitting in a hyper space lane? Also why did hitting the supremacy make the majority of the fleet seemingly explode?

I think in ROTJ there were a lot of other ships that the rebellion might have preferred to Holdo through the Death Star if that were an option... A medical frigate for instance?

Just wanted to add that the last few days back and forth Star Wars chat has been really entertaining.

 

[ajp4mgs]

When was it established in the film that the first order were sitting in a hyper space lane?

It's not explicitly established, but the inference isn't much of a stretch for two simple reasons: 1.) it worked; therefore, the Supremacy was in a hyperspace lane, and 2.) the Raddus had likely plotted a course before they realized that the FO would simply track them wherever they go. If the Supremacy (having followed the Raddus in a straight line) was in the middle of that earlier route that would've been mapped, then Holdo merely needed to turn a 180 and use the same pre-calculated route.

Also why did hitting the supremacy make the majority of the fleet seemingly explode?

I can't explain that, and I can't stand it.

I think in ROTJ there were a lot of other ships that the rebellion might have preferred to Holdo through the Death Star if that were an option... A medical frigate for instance?

No way. The physics wouldn't even be remotely feasible for a medical frigate to take out something as massive as a Death Star.

 

[Khev]

Sweet! I'm glad you don't discount ROTJ for its flaws. The ANH/ESB standard can be a blessing and a curse in that respect.

Very true. You know what else is both a blessing and a curse? SW YouTube videos. They aren't all negative. In fact one awesome video that I watched got into the topic of hyperspace lanes as well and spelled out how Nute Gunray's fleet was blocking the only mapped hyperspace lane connected to Naboo. Which is why he didn't have to surround the entire planet and why Amidala's starship seemingly stupidly flew headlong at the only cluster of ships orbiting her planet. That was a pretty significant sticking point for me with TPM prior to hearing that.

Which brings us too:

I'm glad you asked. I can get into more of the actual science aspect (if you want) that would make it virtually a non-option in previous contexts/scenarios, but I'll try to keep it simpler here first.

In order for the "Holdo Manuever" to work, the target (Snoke's ship in this case), would need to be in the path of a pre-established hyperspace route. The Death Star, for instance, would not be in the middle of a hyperspace route. Therefore, the opportunity to employ hyperspace kamikaze has that prerequisite because that's how hyperspace travel works (pre-established "lanes" that take you through another dimension of space, but that still need to account for "shadows" of large objects that affect gravitational pulls).*

Also, the kamikaze ship/vessel would need to be large enough to do more than simply cause a minor disruption/damage to the larger target. The Raddus was large enough, but not many other Resistance/Rebellion vessels would be. For someone earlier in the SW timeline to have used the Holdo maneuver against a target as large as a Star Destroyer, he/she would need to sacrifice a cruiser-class starship. That's too costly for a "puny band" of rebellion/resistance fighters. Plus, the target would still need to be lured into a hyperspace lane.

Lastly, the target needs to be relatively still. It can't be a case where a target ship/station is moving at an angle from the the attacking vessel. It would need to be straight-on in order to avoid absurd-level calculations.

The Holdo Manuever had the perfect recipe that wouldn't come up in virtually any other scenario. 1.) a target in the middle of a pre-calculated hyperspace route, 2.) the target moving in a straight and direct line through that route, 3.) size of the attacking vessel being large enough for it to work, and 4.) having no more use for the ship/asset after doing it, and having no other choice.

*Hyperspace routes being the means for lightspeed travel in SW is why one of the other objections/criticisms of TLJ that I've seen on those stupid YouTube videos drives me crazy. "Why didn't the FO just send a ship through hyperspace to get in front of the Raddus?" Because that's not how SW hyperspace works, dammit! It's not like Nightcrawler "bamfing" in the X-Men universe.

I love it! Mental gymnastics or not this is the type of stuff I'll ponder and theorize about for years on end, lol. While I probably disagree with some of the specifics, namely that the DSII was *not* in a hyperspace lane (since the entire Rebel fleet emerged from hyperspace with the DS front and center in everyone's forward view ports) I do like the general ideas that you offer.

Sure it would have been nice if the guy next to Hux had said something like, "Sir, we're positioned directly in the middle of a hyperspace lane!" Hux: "No! Fire on that starship!" Or whatever (just like it would have been nice if Panaka or someone had said something similar on camera about the positioning of Gunray's fleet but eh, there's quite a bit of even OT SW that requires fan hand-waving so I'll take it.)

Thanks for sharing.

 

[a-dev]

It's not explicitly established, but the inference isn't much of a stretch for two simple reasons: 1.) it worked; therefore, the Supremacy was in a hyperspace lane, and 2.) the Raddus had likely plotted a course before they realized that the FO would simply track them wherever they go. If the Supremacy (having followed the Raddus in a straight line) was in the middle of that earlier route that would've been mapped, then Holdo merely needed to turn a 180 and use the same pre-calculated route.



I can't explain that, and I can't stand it.



No way. The physics wouldn't even be remotely feasible for a medical frigate to take out something as massive as a Death Star.

Well perhaps it could when you consider the collateral destruction of all those other First Order ships

 

[Khev]

To run with ajp's theory I might be inclined to suggest that in ROTJ's case the massive deflector shield protecting the DS would have prevented the Holdo maneuver and by the time that the shield was taken down all the starships big enough to perform the maneuver were way out of the hyperspace lanes on account of their extended "evasive action" they had to take once the battle ensued.

Hell I've always thought it was pretty stupid that the Rebels sent capital ships (including Medical Frigates WTF, lol) into the battle at all when their primary objective was to send fighters inside the DS anyway. Since the fighters were hyperspace capable it always seemed better to have just sent the maneuverable little buggers by themselves (which could more easily evade the Star Destroyers anyway) rather than risking such large and ultimately ineffective ships.

You *could* theorize that the capital ships were actually sent in case the fighters failed. In which case they'd all start kamikaziing the DS one by one.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well perhaps it could when you consider the collateral destruction of all those other First Order ships

Too true.

To run with ajp's theory I might be inclined to suggest that in ROTJ's case the massive deflector shield protecting the DS would have prevented the Holdo maneuver and by the time that the shield was taken down all the starships big enough to perform the maneuver were way out of the hyperspace lanes on account of their extended "evasive action" they had to take once the battle ensued.

I don't think there were any ships large enough to take out the DSII (which would have been several times bigger than even a Super Star Destroyer). But yeah, the shielding aspect plays a factor. Shielding could also be a factor in the TLJ scenario. The Raddus had experimental shielding that employed advanced technology (supplemental references, and not laid out in the films . . . I know). That shielding, if concentrated forward (it had been concentrated to the rear of the ship during the chase) would add to the impact potential of the Holdo Maneuver. It's plausible.

 

[Bravomite]

I still think the first order could have overtaken the rebels using hyperspace, after all Rey and Chewie intercepted their course in the Falcon and so did DJ Finn and Tico.

It's as good as any other explanation I've heard AJP but like the Supremancy not Holdo manoeuvre proof I think.

If this was Rian's intended explanation then it would be super risky travelling in real space in the shadow of a hyper space lane in case you were Holdo'd by accident.

 

[Khev]

I don't think there were any ships large enough to take out the DSII (which would have been several times bigger than even a Super Star Destroyer).

Well not "take out the DSII" as in vaporize it but I'd certainly think they could have crippled it with the Holdo maneuver by flying straight into the center of it. The Supremacy itself was several times bigger than a Super Star Destroyer as well.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I still think the first order could have overtaken the rebels using hyperspace, after all Rey and Chewie intercepted their course in the Falcon and so did DJ Finn and Tico.

It's as good as any other explanation I've heard AJP but like the Supremancy not Holdo manoeuvre proof I think.

If this was Rian's intended explanation then it would be super risky travelling in real space in the shadow of a hyper space lane in case you were Holdo'd by accident.

@ getting "Holdo'd."

There's no risk of getting Holdo'd in real space, though. That would only be an issue if you're travelling through real space and cross the path of a ship *entering* hyperspace directly in front of it. In that case, the ship making the jump would've had to intentionally ignore the proximity alerts that would likely be coming up on the nav screens.

The jump *into* hyperspace would be the critical aspect of making the Holdo maneuver work. The theoretical science of hyperspace (if we can even call it that) is murky as to whether or not there's any actual acceleration into, and deceleration out of, hyperspace. But, since TFA essentially established that there is an extended deceleration out of hyperspace, then the acceleration needed for the Holdo maneuver is in line with that logic.

 

[Bravomite]

As Khev said you only need to aim for the reactor core, and flinging a snub fighter at it might be akin to a bullet. I don't think the physics or the in-universe rules of the holdo manoeuvre were established in the film and that's the real problem with it.

 

[Khev]

As I think about your theory though ajp I'm not sure it holds up. I don't think any of the films ever suggested that ships *couldn't* go to lightspeed outside of a mapped hyperspace lane, only that it would be incredibly dangerous to do so because you then run the risk of "flying right through a star or bouncing too close to a supernova." Obviously a star wouldn't be in the middle of a hyperspace lane so Han must have been talking about traveling outside of one.

And since Holdo was sacrificing herself anyway she wouldn't care where the nearest lanes were. She just said "**** it" and pointed her ship at the Supremacy and pulled the lever. So with that in mind I do think that according to TLJ any lightspeed capable ship in any previous film could have performed the exact same maneuver against any ship or space station that crossed its path.

 

[ajp4mgs]

As I think about your theory though ajp I'm not sure it holds up. I don't think any of the films ever suggested that ships *couldn't* go to lightspeed outside of a mapped hyperspace lane, only that it would be incredibly dangerous to do so because you then run the risk of "flying right through a star or bouncing too close to a supernova." Obviously a star wouldn't be in the middle of a hyperspace lane so Han must have been talking about traveling outside of one.

And since Holdo was sacrificing herself anyway she wouldn't care where the nearest lanes were. She just said "**** it" and pointed her ship at the Supremacy and pulled the lever. So with that in mind I do think that according to TLJ any lightspeed capable ship in any previous film could have performed the exact same maneuver against any ship or space station that crossed its path.

Even if the films don't explicitly state that hyperspace works by using pre-mapped lanes, that's long been the understanding of the "science" of lightspeed travel in the SW universe. That *is* how it works. If the Falcon, or any other ship, always seems to jump in and out of hyperspace in convenient ways, that's still nothing more than "convenient."

For hyperspace to work, and still have to account for large objects affecting the gravitational "map" in space, there would need to be a folding/warping of space that actually happens in another dimension (not in "real" space). That can only exist in areas where it's possible not to disrupt the integrity of space/gravity. That's why they need to be specific, and pre-calculated. Holdo didn't have the luxury of saying "**** it" and enter hyperspace in any direction she felt like. That's not how it works.

Edit to add: I recently finished reading the novel "Master and Apprentice" (about Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and I thought it was great!). In that story, one of the key plot points is that there is a hyperspace lane that could be created in an area of space close to one planetary system that would need to approve the "construction" of it. There's a political component to it because opening up a hyperspace lane would increase "traffic" and commerce.

The same goes for the Black Spire outpost (inspiration for the Galaxy's Edge Star Wars experience at Disneyland/Disneyworld). The backstory for that section of space near the "Unknown Regions" has to do with opening a hyperspace lane. Again, that's how lightspeed works in SW.

 

[Khev]

Even if the films don't explicitly state that hyperspace works by using pre-mapped lanes, that's long been the understanding of the "science" of lightspeed travel in the SW universe. That *is* how it works. If the Falcon, or any other ship, always seems to jump in and out of hyperspace in convenient ways, that's still nothing more than "convenient."

On that I'm inclined to respectfully disagree. I don't think that any film, including TLJ, supports that theory and on the contrary I find them to openly contradict it. And the films themselves always trump any outside peripheral sources. For your notion to be correct then all through ESB when Han/Leia/Lando had a hair trigger on the hyperspace lever the moment it might become active at any given second, despite constantly zig-zagging away from TIE Fighters, asteroids, or making perpendicular turns away from incoming Star Destroyers they always, every single time, magically ended up in a brand new hyperspace lane? That's convenience that defies common sense for me.

Saw Gerrera's hideout would have also had to have been in a hyperspace lane, as would the inner atmosphere of Starkiller Base or the hangar of Han's TFA freighter. None of that adds up, going all the way back to Han's warning about what happens if you enter hyperspace without "precise calculations." He didn't say "without precise calculations lightspeed is impossible," he said that without precise calculations you crash through something and *die.* And not a single film has ever deviated from that notion. Including TLJ itself with Rose and Finn hitting lightspeed the second they emerge from the Raddus' hanger, Chewie appearing right outside the Supremacy and then instantly jumping back to lightspeed, etc.

To say all of that across 9 films (including RO) was due to a truly magical level of convenience just to justify Holdo's singular maneuver is too much for me. But your mileage may vary.

 

[ajp4mgs]

On that I'm inclined to respectfully disagree. I don't think that any film, including TLJ, supports that theory and on the contrary I find them to openly contradict it. And the films themselves always trump any outside peripheral sources. For your notion to be correct then all through ESB when Han/Leia/Lando had a hair trigger on the hyperspace lever the moment it might become active at any given second, despite constantly zig-zagging away from TIE Fighters, asteroids, or making perpendicular turns away from incoming Star Destroyers they always, every single time, magically ended up in a brand new hyperspace lane? That's convenience that defies common sense for me.

Saw Gerrera's hideout would have also had to have been in a hyperspace lane, as would the inner atmosphere of Starkiller Base or the hangar of Han's TFA freighter. None of that adds up, going all the way back to Han's warning about what happens if you enter hyperspace without "precise calculations." He didn't say "without precise calculations lightspeed is impossible," he said that without precise calculations you crash through something and *die.* And not a single film has ever deviated from that notion. Including TLJ itself with Rose and Finn hitting lightspeed the second they emerge from the Raddus' hanger, Chewie appearing right outside the Supremacy and then instantly jumping back to lightspeed, etc.

To say all of that across 9 films (including RO) was due to a truly magical level of convenience just to justify Holdo's singular maneuver is too much for me. But your mileage may vary.

Then I'd love to know what your definition/explanation of hyperspace in SW is.

"Entering" hyperspace and "travelling through" hyperspace *lanes* are two separate concepts. Using your logic, Han's warning in ANH about needing precise calculations would mean that Han is having the Falcon itself plot a hyperspace course that will have them travel through real space. How would the Falcon avoid the countless moving starships in that scenario?

Why doesn't it make more sense to you that the Falcon (or any other ship) has to *enter* a pre-mapped hyperspace lane that then takes the ship through a dimension of space other than real space? One that would have to be pre-mapped and pre-"constructed."

 

[Bravomite]

I think you are both correct from certain points of view. Yes there are hyper space lanes that have been mapped out which are therefore safe to travel but you don't have to stick to them but leave them at your peril. However to touch on Khev's point you have to travel through hyperspace the dangerous way to get to a lane in the first instance which is what your navicomputer is for (that and keeping you on course once you've plotted it) and ... so you avoid holdo'n yourself.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think you are both correct from certain points of view. Yes there are hyper space lanes that have been mapped out which are therefore safe to travel but you don't have to stick to them but leave them at your peril. However to touch on Khev's point you have to travel through hyperspace the dangerous way to get to a lane in the first instance which is what your navicomputer is for (that and keeping you on course once you've plotted it) and ... so you avoid holdo'n yourself.

The part in bold is what constitutes the "jump" to hyperspace (in my understanding, anyway). Precise calculations would need to be done from some random point in space in order to *enter* a hyperspace lane without flying through a star, a moon, or whatever. So, my understanding is that the "jump" itself would *need* to jump into a hyperspace lane. In other words, when Han wants to take the Falcon into hyperspace, he knows that the jump will take it into one of the hyperspace lanes. So, the ship's navicomputer has to calculate the jump itself in order to avoid disaster. But I think that the ship will still need to jump into a lane. What/where else would a hyperspace *jump* take you into if not into the direction of a pre-constructed lane through alternate space?

And I still can't help laughing when coming across getting "Holdo'd" or "Holdo'n" yourself. Thank you for that.

 

[Khev]

Then I'd love to know what your definition/explanation of hyperspace in SW is.

Based on the films I'd say that hyperspace is simply the dimension that any craft going lightspeed or faster enters. The end. And that to traverse at those speeds and not hit planets or stars you'd want to follow premapped trajectories that avoid them.

"Entering" hyperspace and "travelling through" hyperspace *lanes* are two separate concepts. Using your logic, Han's warning in ANH about needing precise calculations would mean that Han is having the Falcon itself plot a hyperspace course that will have them travel through real space. How would the Falcon avoid the countless moving starships in that scenario?

Well Han's a badass for one. And we know from his own words that there are different speeds of hyperspace travel. The Falcon goes .5 past lightspeed meaning the Falcon will arrive at a destination in half the time of a ship traveling exactly the speed of light. How do they avoid other ships? Well we never really see a flurry of ships entering or leaving hyperspace all at once other than in ROTJ and RO when the entire Rebel fleet was synchronized and flying in unison. Space is *big* and the number of ships traveling in each other's path is either so minute as to not be a factor (like a real world bird flying through a jet engine, it happens but not frequently enough to discourage air travel) or they have the appropriate proximity alarms to give them enough time to avoid them.

Why doesn't it make more sense to you that the Falcon (or any other ship) has to *enter* a pre-mapped hyperspace lane that then takes the ship through a dimension of space other than real space? One that would have to be pre-mapped and pre-"constructed."

It doesn't make sense to me because of all the scenarios in the films I mentioned where the characters were desperately hitting lightspeed to escape from whatever threat no matter what direction they were headed, whether they were in or out of atmosphere and so on. I even forgot a big example. I said 9 films but there's been 10. Solo. By your theory someone traversed to the gravity well in the middle of the Kessel run, didn't get pulverized, and mapped or created a serviceable hyperspace lane and then escaped to share their findings/creation with everyone else? Who was THAT legendary badass? And then later young Han and company just happened to find themselves in the one lane, despite having been pulled in a circle around the well for several minutes and then drifting in freefall when the hyperdrive finally kicked in? I can't accept that.

I don't mind a one-off convenience here or there (Vader happening to lose droids to his own son, etc.) but not the *same* massive convenience 15 times over. That's too much for me.

If I end up loving TROS and therefore want to make TLJ and Holdo's maneuver fit with the rest of the canon I'll be camping out on your idea that the Raddus had special shields that hadn't been invented in any of the previous eras. Where prior to TLJ if a ship attempted the Holdo maneuver *they* would be vaporized but not whatever they crashed into. And the Raddus' shield kept the ship intact so it could act as a bullet. That idea is much more feasible IMO.

 

[xipotec]

The Last Jedi feels like a giant 'FU' from Kathleen Kennedy to fans of the original trilogy - mostly due to how they handled Luke & Admiral Ackbar. Until she and her ilk steps down from Lucasfilm, I have no hope for star wars movies.

The fact that Galaxy's Edge is underperforming tells me I am not alone with this sentiment.

Thanks for your opinion.......


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[xipotec]

I think I see where you're coming from. Basically that yes Zero-G space does exist in SW but that it's "wrong" to show characters in Zero-G environments even though it's technically possible. Kind of like we all know that the characters go to the bathroom but SW isn't about showing us those details.

We have seen an actual character in Zero-G prior to TLJ though. The one clone pilot that gets blown out of his ARC-170 in ROTS drifts past Anakin's fighter without falling to the planet below. The split second shot of the flaming TIE pilot in ESB also entered the vacuum of space though the camera didn't linger on him long enough to see his corpse drifting for any length of time.

I get holding the OT as the gold standard for what is and isn't allowed in a SW film. Though just the fact that ROTJ is included in that really diminishes a LOT of scrutiny for anything that follows. Which is why the gold standard for me is RO/SW/ESB and not SW/ESB/ROTJ. But one thing worth recognizing is that it's all arbitrary and it's all subjective. You saying that ROTS physics don't count because it's in the PT is fine but again it's completely arbitrary to say that entire episodes "don't count." Now I'm not saying that they do count, because I have my own canon as well, but it *is* arbitrary and subjective to say that they don't nonetheless.

For *years* many people dismissed elements of ROTJ until the PT came along and made people suddenly say "um okay ewoks and Leia being the other are cool now" lol. So when a SW sequel simply acknowledges physics or story elements from *any* previous episode I don't think anyone can validly fault the new film for that. Leia flying out into space does echo the visuals of Grievous and Luke going through the window in Cloud City. Her floating through space does in fact echo the one clone pilot doing the same. TLJ didn't add elements to the Saga in that particular instance that were previously unheard of or even unrepresented on film. It was just kind of a lame scene on it's own, lol.

It's like how no one complains that TLJ made Darth a title. Luke openly references Darth Sidious but I've not seen a single person blame TLJ for that. It's because the blame falls on TPM for introducing Darth Maul (and then AOTC for introducing Darth Tyrannus and Darth Sidious.) TLJ simply paid reference to those elements. Which is what it did with floating Leia as well.

Again, not saying that I agree with Leia Poppins or like it, but to dismiss it as "un-Star Wars" is, while a valid enough opinion, totally subjective and arbitrary and is a point that can really only be defended by first saying "well *I* ignore these elements of the Saga so therefore the fragmented version of the story that I consider canon doesn't line up with the Leia scene." Which is fine. But not anything that TLJ can be faulted for.

If you want to pick on something that really does seem to fly in the face (no pun intended) of everything that came before then I'd call out something like the Holdo maneuver.

Ok , I can and have, argued the Holdo maneuver thing before. (If the argument is why it was never used before).

Its simple , no one was smart enough, crazy enough, or suicidal enough or simply never thought of it.

She is suppose to be this super smart general after all.

And ACTUAL human history is littered with new ways to kill people that had never been thought of before, or even imagined before......

9/11 for one.
Atomic bombs WW2
Chemical warfare WW1

Hell go back to the Roman Empire and look up Oil based fire bombing.

Or Hannibal using Elephants.

Its not a huge stretch to think its the first time someone did this. Or that its possible considering what Han says in ANH about the dangers of Hyperspace.

I think people are mostly pissed such a cool idea was Holdos. For me its one of my favorite moments in TLJ.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....