Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[ajp4mgs]

Based on the films I'd say that hyperspace is simply the dimension that any craft going lightspeed or faster enters. The end. And that to traverse at those speeds and not hit planets or stars you'd want to follow premapped trajectories that avoid them.

Just a couple of nerdy nitpicks (please forgive me ). First, if lightspeed velocity was enough to portal you into another dimension of space, then light itself in SW would only exist in some unseen realm. Second, if the starship is travelling faster than light through another dimension of space, there'd be no actual "real" stars or planets for it to collide into in that dimension. The stated reason in SW canon for why large objects in real space need to be taken into account when mapping/calculating hyperspace travel is that very large celestial objects have enough mass to create a "shadow" in hyperspace. That shadow can have a pull strong enough to yank a ship out of hyperspace and send it directly into the real object in actual space.

Stuff like this is why people at Lucasfilm bother coming up with explanations/definitions for what we see in the movie. They feel a need to plug every logic and science hole. IMO, it's actually unnecessary for SW, but whatever.

As for our different interpretations of what travelling through hyperspace actually means: again, it's the kind of thing that SW shouldn't be about, so I'll just drop the hyperspace lane requirement as one of the needed conditions for the Holdo Maneuver. But, there'd still be the need for a large enough vessel to generate enough force to penetrate the shields and structure of a major ship (or a Death Star). So, it'd still be unreasonably costly to take a gamble with that tactic during the Rebellion's fight against the Empire. Not just because of limited resources, but because their level of desperation never reached what Holdo's was at when the transport ships were being picked off one by one.

Plus, there's still the idea that the FO were travelling in a straight line of pursuit to make the 180 pivot and strike effective. Then there's the fact that someone (or a droid, I guess) would need to override the safety protocols that would prevent an automated hyperspace jump into the path of an object. And, lastly, the fact that Poe had already plotted a hyperspace jump earlier (a point I had forgotten) made Holdo's job easier since the Supremacy was still moving along that same path.

I don't find it too difficult to dismiss the tactic itself as a likely/logical one in previous SW campaigns. Maybe mental gymnastics, but not any more acrobatic than what I do for countless genre movies that I like. But as you stated before: your own mileage may/will vary. I've enjoyed this back-and-forth, though.

 

[TaliBane]

Wow, so much great stuff being bantered in here. Epic.

But yeah, I agree with Khev on the hyperspace thing - the idea you need to be near a "freeway onramp" every time just seems to totally go against the random way Han is ready to jump anywhere and everywhere. And doesn't the fact Han needs to plot a hyperspace path mean that there isn't "lanes" - and what exactly is a "lane" anyway, something like a wormhole opening?

I've never heard that "hyperspace lane" idea before.

And saying you need a massive ship to do the Holdo thing ("maneuver" always reminds me of the Valsalva manuever - maybe "bignose lady" helped with that one) seems to ignore the idea that a well-aimed bullet can kill a bull elephant. Like even setting aside a Calamari cruiser through Vader's Star Destroyer idea, even a fighter could have done the trick when guided by something like the DS plans.

I think the overall point is that OT SW ignores science. I mean here you guys are debating gravity rules around the DS, yet look at the way the "official" technical manuals try to explian how death star gravity works - something about how gravity is directed toward the core (like on earth) in a few surface layers, but then it becomes like a high rise building further in (like a giant pancake stack inside a globe,) and the elevators reorient you... or something.

All this mental gymnastics to try to explain why Luke and the gang arrive at a high rise building that happens to be ball shaped. Yet none of it makes any scientifc sense - like rebel ships fly down reactor shafts that have no gravity but they're within a massive object that has artificial gravity everywhere?

The reality is, if human interaction with zero-g was a OT SW thing, then a lot of this rules stuff would have been more firmly established - but they didn't care. Because OT SW is a fantasy that uses space solely as a backdrop. There's no time-slip due to lightspeed travel (ie they don't arrive before they left etc) or aging weirdly. Time and gravity rules are pretty much ignored except the minimum to get the chaarcter from A to B in a way we accept.

Just like the question of whether Han could date Greedo's sister and what would the outcome be, and are there "bispecies" kids and how and why would a Jabba and leia hook-up work anyway and what would be the outcome?

This cuts to the core of my point. About trying to impose the scientific reality of things like zero-g and vacuum onto a fantasy, even a fantasy that non-sensically uses some science-ish tropes as window dressing.

That's what makes the OT so satisfying - it's like a fantasy dream state where there's space and desert and stuff we know, but they are fantasy dream versions that have enough rules/visuals to make them familiar, but are more unlike the real thing than they are like. This is what makes the Leia-Poppins moment feel so un-SW to me: because it feels like NASA consulted on it, not Joseph Campbell.

The Death Star is indeed a high rise building with domed exterior. You can walk out into space with just a breather on, to hell with the vacuum and no gravity - yes, that giant worm Han walks around in is simply sitting, mouth open, in a crevice of an asteroid that has no gravity or atmosphere (so forget gravity, it would have pressure and temp aspects that would be fatal.)

The Holdo manuever thing - like "force projection" - does indeed bring up huge questions of why this wasn't used in the OT (Ben projecting from his hut to Yavin in ANH to tell them about the plans or Yoda projecting to Bespin in ESB to help a dying Luke in battle for example, and the discussed x-wing-thru-DSI/Calamari-thru-DSII scenarios) but to me they aren't really "sci-fi vs fantasy" issues like the Leia scene, so are a bit of a different conversation.

 

[jedijim3002]

I love the science banter in here. Great read guys.

My father in law is an engineer and when I explained to him the Mary Poppins scene with Leia he just laughed and said that the first thing that would happen when being sucked out into space would be that your entire body would explode because the pressure inside the ship is greater than the zero pressure outside of the ship. Going from one extreme to another would make you balloon up and explode. Besides all the air being sucked out of your lungs and every bit of moisture in your body instantly turning to ice.

But if she was strong enough in the force she could have held herself together. I seem to recall some instances in the EU novels where some Jedi could do something like that or slow their bodies down to a hibernation state to survive long periods stranded in space.

It’s still funny to talk about though.


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[xipotec]

I love the science banter in here. Great read guys.

My father in law is an engineer and when I explained to him the Mary Poppins scene with Leia he just laughed and said that the first thing that would happen when being sucked out into space would be that your entire body would explode because the pressure inside the ship is greater than the zero pressure outside of the ship. Going from one extreme to another would make you balloon up and explode. Besides all the air being sucked out of your lungs and every bit of moisture in your body instantly turning to ice.

But if she was strong enough in the force she could have held herself together. I seem to recall some instances in the EU novels where some Jedi could do something like that or slow their bodies down to a hibernation state to survive long periods stranded in space.

It’s still funny to talk about though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually he is wrong.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/question540.htm

Aside from ignoring the fact that she is a space wizard with tiny organisms inside her as the source of her power that obviously protected her from harm.....


TLR: she survived cause shes a space wizard.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

But yeah, I agree with Khev on the hyperspace thing - the idea you need to be near a "freeway onramp" every time just seems to totally go against the random way Han is ready to jump anywhere and everywhere. And doesn't the fact Han needs to plot a hyperspace path mean that there isn't "lanes" - and what exactly is a "lane" anyway, something like a wormhole opening?

Why wouldn't Han be taking those "few moments to get the coordinates from the navi-computer" to plot the *jump itself* into an established hyperspace lane (instead of plotting the actual full journey trajectory)? He uses the term "coordinates." That term doesn't suggest a path of trajectory; it would actually make more sense as a set of coordinates to "jump" to. To me, Han could still make a jump into a nearby hyperspace lane from anywhere in the charted galaxy, but just not be able to decide what direction to point the Falcon for that trajectory. In this case, the trajectory angle would instead be decided by where a viable lane is available in the closest proximity (the "precise coordinates").

From reading a lot of the published material (mainly novels, though), the conclusion I've drawn about the actual logistics of SW hyperspace is that you can't just go anywhere you want by letting the navi-computer plot a course for you. I believe that there are parts of charted space that are entirely unreachable via hyperspace. What the navi-computer does is plot a course to make the jump into a hyperspace lane. From there, you can transition into any number of other lanes when you reach certain beacons. It made/makes sense to me, but maybe I'm just interpreting everything incorrectly.

I've never heard that "hyperspace lane" idea before.

I don't get the sense that you'd ever care enough about this, but even just a cursory look into the subject of hyperspace in whatever form of SW reference resource you choose would probably quickly lead you to the notion of "hyperspace lanes" used by hyperdrive-capable ships.

And saying you need a massive ship to do the Holdo thing ("maneuver" always reminds me of the Valsalva manuever - maybe "bignose lady" helped with that one) seems to ignore the idea that a well-aimed bullet can kill a bull elephant. Like even setting aside a Calamari cruiser through Vader's Star Destroyer idea, even a fighter could have done the trick when guided by something like the DS plans.

The bullet/elephant scenario has little to do with physics, though. The elephant dies because you have to aim fairly precisely at a vital organ (or just have it generally bleed to death slowly). But the bullet does next to nothing to the full structural integrity of the elephant. The elephant doesn't explode.

The need for a large-enough ship is pure physics. And I agree with you that we shouldn't be using science to explain SW questions, but in this case, science is inextricably linked to this issue. Velocity at the speed of light is the constant component of Einstein's energy equation, but mass is the variable. In order to generate enough energy to destroy something as big as Snoke's Supremacy, the ship utilizing hyperdrive would need enough mass to make that work.

Even then, various physicists disagree on whether or not even the Raddus would've been large enough to cause that damage (and yes, physicists have actually weighed in on this subject ). A smaller vessel would have to go faster than light in real space; but even if it could, maintaining its own structural integrity as it gets compacted at that velocity would likely make it impossible anyway.

Just like the question of whether Han could date Greedo's sister and what would the outcome be, and are there "bispecies" kids and how and why would a Jabba and leia hook-up work anyway and what would be the outcome?

Jabba probably tried to take advantage of Leia. And that rage-induced choking of the big slug was the outcome.

In all seriousness, I hear what you're saying about science (be it physics or biology) having no relevant role for enjoying SW. I'm as guilty as anyone of giving in to these sorts of discussions, but it doesn't actually influence how much I enjoy (or don't) each of the films. Your point that the fantasy element is most important/valuable definitely rings true.

My father in law is an engineer and when I explained to him the Mary Poppins scene with Leia he just laughed and said that the first thing that would happen when being sucked out into space would be that your entire body would explode because the pressure inside the ship is greater than the zero pressure outside of the ship. Going from one extreme to another would make you balloon up and explode. Besides all the air being sucked out of your lungs and every bit of moisture in your body instantly turning to ice.

Even though I love the movie, I remember having a similar reaction to his at the theater. When I first saw Leia open her eyes and extend her hand, I thought, "Oh, bull****! There's no way her skeletal structure would stay intact after the concussive energy from the torpedo blast and the impact of being sucked into space."

But a few seconds later, it only got worse. When she started flying, I audibly hummed the John Williams Superman theme. And it was out of pure frustration more than anything else. Still don't care for that scene.

 

[slikkerias]

I don’t think that TLJ entered into ‘hard science’ territory. I think we entered ‘adulthood’. [emoji17]

 

[ajp4mgs]

While I probably disagree with some of the specifics, namely that the DSII was *not* in a hyperspace lane (since the entire Rebel fleet emerged from hyperspace with the DS front and center in everyone's forward view ports) I do like the general ideas that you offer.

You got me wondering, Khev. When I saw this part of your post yesterday, I knew that I had read something about how the DSII was built using secret hyperspace access, but I couldn't recall any specifics. Today I remembered which book addressed that; it's a junior novel called "Moving Target: A Princess Leia Adventure."

The book explains that the Empire *built* a secret hyperspace route to construct the DSII efficiently and without being detected as easily by Rebel spies. This brings up two points relevant to our Holdo discussion: 1.) the DSII would likely be at the end of a hyperspace lane at the edge of the charted galaxy, and 2.) hyperspace lanes can be built/constructed. In that case, they would be somewhat like roadways (whether man-made or existing naturally). In other words, hyperspace travel could be restricted to these lanes in a way not too dissimilar from how our cars can't just drive through whatever terrain we want. That would mean that the jump to hyperspace (the lanes) is what needs to be calculated and routed.

This would make sense with the dialogue exchange between Kenobi and Han in ANH. When Kenobi asks "how long before you make the jump to lightspeed?" and Han answers that "it'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the navi-computer," I think a reasonable interpretation is that the navi-computer is calculating which coordinates would allow the jump itself to be a safely direct one (avoiding stars, etc.). It wouldn't necessarily be calculating the safest path to Alderaan (which would've already been a known route requiring very little calculation).

Anyway, I know that you disregard anything that isn't on screen, like novels and other supplementary material, but I took a photo of the relevant page just in case you'd be even mildly curious.

 

[TaliBane]

Why wouldn't Han be taking those "few moments to get the coordinates from the navi-computer" to plot the *jump itself* into an established hyperspace lane (instead of plotting the actual full journey trajectory)? He uses the term "coordinates." That term doesn't suggest a path of trajectory; it would actually make more sense as a set of coordinates to "jump" to. To me, Han could still make a jump into a nearby hyperspace lane from anywhere in the charted galaxy, but just not be able to decide what direction to point the Falcon for that trajectory. In this case, the trajectory angle would instead be decided by where a viable lane is available in the closest proximity (the "precise coordinates").

From reading a lot of the published material (mainly novels, though), the conclusion I've drawn about the actual logistics of SW hyperspace is that you can't just go anywhere you want by letting the navi-computer plot a course for you. I believe that there are parts of charted space that are entirely unreachable via hyperspace. What the navi-computer does is plot a course to make the jump into a hyperspace lane. From there, you can transition into any number of other lanes when you reach certain beacons. It made/makes sense to me, but maybe I'm just interpreting everything incorrectly.



I don't get the sense that you'd ever care enough about this, but even just a cursory look into the subject of hyperspace in whatever form of SW reference resource you choose would probably quickly lead you to the notion of "hyperspace lanes" used by hyperdrive-capable ships.



The bullet/elephant scenario has little to do with physics, though. The elephant dies because you have to aim fairly precisely at a vital organ (or just have it generally bleed to death slowly). But the bullet does next to nothing to the full structural integrity of the elephant. The elephant doesn't explode.

The need for a large-enough ship is pure physics. And I agree with you that we shouldn't be using science to explain SW questions, but in this case, science is inextricably linked to this issue. Velocity at the speed of light is the constant component of Einstein's energy equation, but mass is the variable. In order to generate enough energy to destroy something as big as Snoke's Supremacy, the ship utilizing hyperdrive would need enough mass to make that work.

Even then, various physicists disagree on whether or not even the Raddus would've been large enough to cause that damage (and yes, physicists have actually weighed in on this subject ). A smaller vessel would have to go faster than light in real space; but even if it could, maintaining its own structural integrity as it gets compacted at that velocity would likely make it impossible anyway.



Jabba probably tried to take advantage of Leia. And that rage-induced choking of the big slug was the outcome.

In all seriousness, I hear what you're saying about science (be it physics or biology) having no relevant role for enjoying SW. I'm as guilty as anyone of giving in to these sorts of discussions, but it doesn't actually influence how much I enjoy (or don't) each of the films. Your point that the fantasy element is most important/valuable definitely rings true.



Even though I love the movie, I remember having a similar reaction to his at the theater. When I first saw Leia open her eyes and extend her hand, I thought, "Oh, bull****! There's no way her skeletal structure would stay intact after the concussive energy from the torpedo blast and the impact of being sucked into space."

But a few seconds later, it only got worse. When she started flying, I audibly hummed the John Williams Superman theme. And it was out of pure frustration more than anything else. Still don't care for that scene.

This is what I love about this forum. The same guy who wrote all this also hand-made every part of this...

View attachment 459815

I don't have the same POV on a lot of this, but dayuuuumm... the deep knowledge, attention to detail and passion is just epic.

The thing about Hyperspace lanes is I was hoping you were going to say "in that rebel briefing scene in ROTJ, when Ackbar says..." or even "the Ubese on the Death Star troopers' screens in the opening scene of ROTJ translates as..." because for me there are two kinds of OT SW sources: the kind that matter to me, which is what's onscreen (or stuff made for onscreen back then that isn't seen, for example art or costume parts not seen) and the kind that is sort of interesting confection, eg an explanation a West End Games employee came up with in 1992.

When I say the OT is the "bible" and the "gold standard" I only mean what you see and hear onscreen (or associated materials,) because that is the stuff that turned SW into the iconic thing it is. I understand that for many, the novels are huge (and some were written in that era too) and the source books too, but the reality is, much of it can be declared non-canon all of a sudden (as Disney did,) and some of it can contradict itself (which much of it does.) But most of all, the movies, while GL may have meddled, are what they are.

That being said, I do understand that some of what we know about the OT is shaped by "EU" type stuff - I mean some names were generated by Kenner for crying out loud, and who would have known what a Cloud Car Pilot uniform looked like without the figure?

I just feel overall that there has been a bit of scramble to try to "make right" the issues that stuff like force projection and hyperspace-ramming have unleashed. Here's just one article I've been looking at that is struggling to make it right:

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi

The reality for me is that it isn't even the science or previous reference books that makes these things problematic: it's that they "feel" wrong in terms of SW lore in your gut. Like the rebels were dumb to not use hyperspace ramming before IN SOME WAY. Or that nobody at least raised the possibility in a briefing - it's so obvious if it's indeed possible. It's like Yoda not force projecting to Bespin to help Luke as he's about to be killed - if it was possible, why wouldn't Yoda have sacrificed himself to save Luke?

Part that is to do with "rules" as well, the fuzzy notion of force projection killing you, seemingly by the longer you do it - yet Luke still sits to chat with Leia in TLJ, dying a little every second he sits there. So why couldn't Ben have force projected to Alderaan right from his hut as soon as Luke and R2 showed up to tell them about Leia and the plans? Yes, I'm sure Leland Chee would weigh in on Twitter with a reference to some mid-2000s comic, but it just FEELS wrong. Like Luke can do it, why didn't Ben (same age, presumably same proficiency, same level of urgency)?

And so too with the hyperspace ram thing. If it's about mass, why wouldn't the OT rebels have gotten (or stolen) a few of the very largest ships they could find and direct those at the DSII and not stop the hyperdrive as they do in ROTJ? If it's about routes, then why is the DSII sitting right in front of where the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace (ie it seems like they screech to a halt right in front of it, and could have continued, albeit with a shield generated around.)

And ref guides themselves are a huge issue: did you know that the size of the DSII has been estimated at anything from 150km to 900km in various sources? Or that Vader's SD length seems to have varied over the years by at least a factor of three? Or that various sources show the Supremacy's length as equivalent to the radius of the DSI (ie suggesting that if mass/size is an issue, a Raddus scale cruiser, or multiple cruisers of that size, could have at least tried the hyperspace ram against the DSI or II and had at minimum catasptrophic affect if shielding was taken out) That's a pretty wide variation for "official sources," especially if we are going to use this stuff for "scientific reality" debates about mass etc.

And what the heck is a hyperspace lane anyway - with asteroids, comets (creatures too - I assume asteroid slugs have to move house from time to time, along with that beastie from Solo) and millions of ships and objects moving through space, how can you possibly say these are "safe routes" to lightspeed your way through?

So I think the issue with these "explanations" is that they feel wrong in your gut: that our brave, smart, desperate rebels in the OT would have thought of this stuff, or used it in some way to defeat Imperials and even the DSI and DSII. Just as Ben and Yoda, or hell, even Vader, could have used force projection in short non-fatal bursts because they were force/jedi titans and would have known about this powerful tool (but yes, would not have fallen for the "I'm not really here" ruse as Kylo did - I mean you're an idiot, kid.)


Anyway, I so appreciate your writing up what you do. You (and Khev too) are gold, man.

 

[ajp4mgs]

This is what I love about this forum. The same guy who wrote all this also hand-made every part of this...





I don't have the same POV on a lot of this, but dayuuuumm... the deep knowledge, attention to detail and passion is just epic.

The thing about Hyperspace lanes is I was hoping you were going to say "in that rebel briefing scene in ROTJ, when Ackbar says..." or even "the Ubese on the Death Star troopers' screens in the opening scene of ROTJ translates as..." because for me there are two kinds of OT SW sources: the kind that matter to me, which is what's onscreen (or stuff made for onscreen back then that isn't seen, for example art or costume parts not seen) and the kind that is sort of interesting confection, eg an explanation a West End Games employee came up with in 1992.

When I say the OT is the "bible" and the "gold standard" I only mean what you see and hear onscreen (or associated materials,) because that is the stuff that turned SW into the iconic thing it is. I understand that for many, the novels are huge (and some were written in that era too) and the source books too, but the reality is, much of it can be declared non-canon all of a sudden (as Disney did,) and some of it can contradict itself (which much of it does.) But most of all, the movies, while GL may have meddled, are what they are.

That being said, I do understand that some of what we know about the OT is shaped by "EU" type stuff - I mean some names were generated by Kenner for crying out loud, and who would have known what a Cloud Car Pilot uniform looked like without the figure?

I just feel overall that there has been a bit of scramble to try to "make right" the issues that stuff like force projection and hyperspace-ramming have unleashed. Here's just one article I've been looking at that is struggling to make it right:

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi

The reality for me is that it isn't even the science or previous reference books that makes these things problematic: it's that they "feel" wrong in terms of SW lore in your gut. Like the rebels were dumb to not use hyperspace ramming before IN SOME WAY. Or that nobody at least raised the possibility in a briefing - it's so obvious if it's indeed possible. It's like Yoda not force projecting to Bespin to help Luke as he's about to be killed - if it was possible, why wouldn't Yoda have sacrificed himself to save Luke?

Part that is to do with "rules" as well, the fuzzy notion of force projection killing you, seemingly by the longer you do it - yet Luke still sits to chat with Leia in TLJ, dying a little every second he sits there. So why couldn't Ben have force projected to Alderaan right from his hut as soon as Luke and R2 showed up to tell them about Leia and the plans? Yes, I'm sure Leland Chee would weigh in on Twitter with a reference to some mid-2000s comic, but it just FEELS wrong. Like Luke can do it, why didn't Ben (same age, presumably same proficiency, same level of urgency)?

And so too with the hyperspace ram thing. If it's about mass, why wouldn't the OT rebels have gotten (or stolen) a few of the very largest ships they could find and direct those at the DSII and not stop the hyperdrive as they do in ROTJ? If it's about routes, then why is the DSII sitting right in front of where the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace (ie it seems like they screech to a halt right in front of it, and could have continued, albeit with a shield generated around.)

And ref guides themselves are a huge issue: did you know that the size of the DSII has been estimated at anything from 150km to 900km in various sources? Or that Vader's SD length seems to have varied over the years by at least a factor of three? Or that various sources show the Supremacy's length as equivalent to the radius of the DSI (ie suggesting that if mass/size is an issue, a Raddus scale cruiser, or multiple cruisers of that size, could have at least tried the hyperspace ram against the DSI or II and had at minimum catasptrophic affect if shielding was taken out) That's a pretty wide variation for "official sources," especially if we are going to use this stuff for "scientific reality" debates about mass etc.

And what the heck is a hyperspace lane anyway - with asteroids, comets (creatures too - I assume asteroid slugs have to move house from time to time, along with that beastie from Solo) and millions of ships and objects moving through space, how can you possibly say these are "safe routes" to lightspeed your way through?

So I think the issue with these "explanations" is that they feel wrong in your gut: that our brave, smart, desperate rebels in the OT would have thought of this stuff, or used it in some way to defeat Imperials and even the DSI and DSII. Just as Ben and Yoda, or hell, even Vader, could have used force projection in short non-fatal bursts because they were force/jedi titans and would have known about this powerful tool (but yes, would not have fallen for the "I'm not really here" ruse as Kylo did - I mean you're an idiot, kid.)


Anyway, I so appreciate your writing up what you do. You (and Khev too) are gold, man.

First and foremost, I want to thank you a great deal for the kind words. And I offer a sub-thanks for using the term "passion" instead of what it really is: craziness. Having back-and-forths like this latest one, especially with knowledgeable and incredibly insightful people like you and Khev, is the main reason I continue to interact in these threads.

As for the rest of your post, you're certainly not alone in the "movies are all that counts" camp. I understand that point of view very clearly. And I would be the same way if not for one thing: 20+ hours of Skywalker Saga in 9 films isn't enough for me. It's because of how much I thoroughly enjoyed watching the OT events unfold on screen that makes me also enjoy deeper exploration of those events, stories, characters, settings, motivations, and general lore. For me, other formats can offer that additional (and desired) insight without needing to be provided solely via on-screen cinema. And while the George Lucas films will always "count" more for me too, I don't discount supplemental stories from other creative minds (some of them are visionary in their own right, imo). As long as the material is done well, and well-thought-out, I'm more than happy to soak those up.

You make a great point about the Kenner toys adding a little bit to the lore, and it even goes on to the later Hasbro figures that came out in the mid-90's. Those card backs had "files" with biographical info and story nuggets. Nothing more than superficial and silly additions to the lore, but I really dug that stuff anyway. For me, it's all a welcome addition to my general understanding of SW. The same goes for tv shows, comics, novels, and reference manuals; I give them a chance to expand the saga for me, and I embrace what works. Whatever ambiguities are left from the films, I think the "official" material that clears those areas up is worthwhile. It helps do away with unanswered questions that tend to be sticking points about story logic for some fans. I actually don't object often to those ambiguities (the general fantasy aspect matters more), but I still appreciate added layers.

In ANH, one might raise the question of why the Death Star needed to orbit Yavin for 30 minutes before being in range of firing on the base despite having just used hyperspace to traverse the galaxy. We know that the real answer is that GL put that in there to build suspense for the climax at the end of the film. But the actual film logic leaves the question open. That's why I appreciate things like the "hyperspace lanes" explanations; for me, that "canon" explanation helps settle the DS-orbiting-Yavin question. The same goes for ambiguities in ESB and ROTJ. It's not necessary in order to enjoy the OT films, but I "count" it when it makes sense.

When it comes to the ST, it's not for everybody. No SW film ever will be universally accepted going forward, imo. These two new movies just work for me so far. I see the stories as logical-enough extensions of the OT, and they fill a need I had for more Luke/Han/Leia story. They don't feel right in your gut, but they do in mine. That's the truth. They'll never be as "bible-standard" to me as the OT either, but they work well enough to be (surprisingly) very satisfying. So, when I hear/read objections and criticisms, I try to give my point of view to offer an alternative perspective. It never convinces anyone, but I defend what I like because SW matters enough to me. Other fiction doesn't, frankly. But I love Star Wars! And when I think it's done well, I invest time and energy into absorbing and exploring it as much as possible.

Hearing and/or reading thoughts from conscientious fans (be it glowing or critiquing opinions) are another aspect of this franchise that I enjoy a lot. So for that, TaliBane, I thank you as well for yet another great read! I'm sorry that I'm not equipped to offer on-screen examples/proof that can minimize or eliminate the issues you have with those TLJ elements that you feel don't fit properly, but I gave it a shot.

 

[slikkerias]

First and foremost, I want to thank you a great deal for the kind words. And I offer a sub-thanks for using the term "passion" instead of what it really is: craziness. Having back-and-forths like this latest one, especially with knowledgeable and incredibly insightful people like you and Khev, is the main reason I continue to interact in these threads.

As for the rest of your post, you're certainly not alone in the "movies are all that counts" camp. I understand that point of view very clearly. And I would be the same way if not for one thing: 20+ hours of Skywalker Saga in 9 films isn't enough for me. It's because of how much I thoroughly enjoyed watching the OT events unfold on screen that makes me also enjoy deeper exploration of those events, stories, characters, settings, motivations, and general lore. For me, other formats can offer that additional (and desired) insight without needing to be provided solely via on-screen cinema. And while the George Lucas films will always "count" more for me too, I don't discount supplemental stories from other creative minds (some of them are visionary in their own right, imo). As long as the material is done well, and well-thought-out, I'm more than happy to soak those up.

You make a great point about the Kenner toys adding a little bit to the lore, and it even goes on to the later Hasbro figures that came out in the mid-90's. Those card backs had "files" with biographical info and story nuggets. Nothing more than superficial and silly additions to the lore, but I really dug that stuff anyway. For me, it's all a welcome addition to my general understanding of SW. The same goes for tv shows, comics, novels, and reference manuals; I give them a chance to expand the saga for me, and I embrace what works. Whatever ambiguities are left from the films, I think the "official" material that clears those areas up is worthwhile. It helps do away with unanswered questions that tend to be sticking points about story logic for some fans. I actually don't object often to those ambiguities (the general fantasy aspect matters more), but I still appreciate added layers.

In ANH, one might raise the question of why the Death Star needed to orbit Yavin for 30 minutes before being in range of firing on the base despite having just used hyperspace to traverse the galaxy. We know that the real answer is that GL put that in there to build suspense for the climax at the end of the film. But the actual film logic leaves the question open. That's why I appreciate things like the "hyperspace lanes" explanations; for me, that "canon" explanation helps settle the DS-orbiting-Yavin question. The same goes for ambiguities in ESB and ROTJ. It's not necessary in order to enjoy the OT films, but I "count" it when it makes sense.

When it comes to the ST, it's not for everybody. No SW film ever will be universally accepted going forward, imo. These two new movies just work for me so far. I see the stories as logical-enough extensions of the OT, and they fill a need I had for more Luke/Han/Leia story. They don't feel right in your gut, but they do in mine. That's the truth. They'll never be as "bible-standard" to me as the OT either, but they work well enough to be (surprisingly) very satisfying. So, when I hear/read objections and criticisms, I try to give my point of view to offer an alternative perspective. It never convinces anyone, but I defend what I like because SW matters enough to me. Other fiction doesn't, frankly. But I love Star Wars! And when I think it's done well, I invest time and energy into absorbing and exploring it as much as possible.

Hearing and/or reading thoughts from conscientious fans (be it glowing or critiquing opinions) are another aspect of this franchise that I enjoy a lot. So for that, TaliBane, I thank you as well for yet another great read! I'm sorry that I'm not equipped to offer on-screen examples/proof that can minimize or eliminate the issues you have with those TLJ elements that you feel don't fit properly, but I gave it a shot.

I love reading this and I definitely agree with most. And I admire the patience you have with the passionate naysayers ;-) [emoji3590]

 

[Khev]

Based on the films I'd say that hyperspace is simply the dimension that any craft going lightspeed or faster enters. The end. And that to traverse at those speeds and not hit planets or stars you'd want to follow premapped trajectories that avoid them.

Just a couple of nerdy nitpicks (please forgive me ). First, if lightspeed velocity was enough to portal you into another dimension of space, then light itself in SW would only exist in some unseen realm. Second, if the starship is travelling faster than light through another dimension of space, there'd be no actual "real" stars or planets for it to collide into in that dimension.

Fair nitpick, I probably shouldn't have used the word "dimension" since the films don't suggest that hyperspace travelers actually leave our "reality" or anything. Which is another reason I don't subscribe to the notion that hyperspace "lanes" are merely mapped out coordinates from one system to another. Though as I think about it I don't know how you could possibly map a permanent "safe" trajectory from say one planet to another since planetary locations aren't static, they're in constant high speed motion as they orbit their respective stars. How the heck could you have a lane next to a specific point on a planet that connects to another specific point for another planet. Are the lanes constantly in motion as well, growing and shrinking and twisting to continually connect two spinning planets? "It messes with your head," --John Connor, lol. Another SWism best not to analyze too carefully.

I see those blue, shiny tunnels that the ships fly through at lightspeed as just being some cool SW effect that characters see outside their windows when flying that fast. I think it's a bit of a "halfway dimension" maybe, something that doesn't take them out of tangible reality but creates a protective bubble of sorts that prevents all that theory of relativity aging/de-aging stuff. And that's it.

The visual language of the films has been very specific and very consistent; the ships never "wink out" of existence and go into another dimension and then "blink" back into reality. Whenever a ship is shown entering or leaving hyperspace from outside the ship you see that it merely streaks across the universe at a ridiculously high rate of speed. The ESB Star Destroyer that the Falcon is hiding in the floating garbage from. You see the SD's engines flash and then the entire ship itself streaks off into the distance. It doesn't "disappear." Same with the ROTJ Rebel fleet. When they arrive at Endor each ship streaks into frame, decelerating in "real space." The fleet at Scarif does the same. When the U-Wing jumps to lightspeed in Jedha's atmosphere again, it is shown as a bright streak across the sky until it leaves the frame. And again in Solo when the Falcon does all the little mini-jumps inside the Kessel Maelstrom. Fast/slow. Fast/slow. Never once in any film, whether vintage special effects or current CGI is used is a ship ever shown to disappear from our reality and enter an "alternate dimension." It's simply a matter of the ships going really, really fast.

You got me wondering, Khev. When I saw this part of your post yesterday, I knew that I had read something about how the DSII was built using secret hyperspace access, but I couldn't recall any specifics. Today I remembered which book addressed that; it's a junior novel called "Moving Target: A Princess Leia Adventure."

The book explains that the Empire *built* a secret hyperspace route to construct the DSII efficiently and without being detected as easily by Rebel spies. This brings up two points relevant to our Holdo discussion: 1.) the DSII would likely be at the end of a hyperspace lane at the edge of the charted galaxy, and 2.) hyperspace lanes can be built/constructed. In that case, they would be somewhat like roadways (whether man-made or existing naturally). In other words, hyperspace travel could be restricted to these lanes in a way not too dissimilar from how our cars can't just drive through whatever terrain we want. That would mean that the jump to hyperspace (the lanes) is what needs to be calculated and routed.

This would make sense with the dialogue exchange between Kenobi and Han in ANH. When Kenobi asks "how long before you make the jump to lightspeed?" and Han answers that "it'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the navi-computer," I think a reasonable interpretation is that the navi-computer is calculating which coordinates would allow the jump itself to be a safely direct one (avoiding stars, etc.). It wouldn't necessarily be calculating the safest path to Alderaan (which would've already been a known route requiring very little calculation).

Anyway, I know that you disregard anything that isn't on screen, like novels and other supplementary material, but I took a photo of the relevant page just in case you'd be even mildly curious.

View attachment 460327

You're definitely a man after my own heart, great research with that text. And I'm fine with gleaning supplemental materials (especially when they're non-retcon-y vintage text like that contained on original Topps trading cards/novelizations and so on.) But only if those supplemental materials don't contradict what's on film. I'm actually fine with a "hyperspace lane" connecting to Endor. To me that just tells me that someone mapped the route to allow for *safe* passage. Not that someone actually created a literal highway that allows any passage at all. Because as I said before with the dozen+ scenarios throughout the films where people were just yanking that lever regardless of what direction they were facing (or even before coordinates had been fully entered in the case of the U-Wing escaping Jedha!) I just can't subscribe to the notion that there are these magical alternate dimension lanes that you *have* to fly in if you want to go lightspeed. Awesome take though, and if you like the current year retconned Disney canon and find that it explains and solves multiple issues for you throughout the films then who am I to tell you you can't do that.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I don't have a problems with "space lanes" so to me "hyperspace lanes" are no different, just fewer and far between. If you imagine your city with flying cars, obviously "flight lanes" would have to be organized... but that doesn't mean you can't take off from anywhere and fly around the grid without being in a particular lane. Three-dimensional space is vast. So vast that a network of highly travelled "hyperspace lanes" would hardly make a dent.

Besides, likely any path one makes in hyperspace that takes you quickly from point A to point B could be digested by the navicomputer and uploaded to the network for others to use should they need to (if you choose to share your data). But then that brings up the question: does the Star Wars universe have a central network?

 

[xipotec]

The truth is there is a HUGE list of Physics problems never addressed in the OT , something Star Trek fans would have a cow about.

Its only in the passing years they realized the technical stuff had money potential as well, and they began with (I believe) the Ship and Weapon visual manuals first. Which did almost nothing to explain how these things work, just a guide to the name of this doohicky or that kabob on the Falcon or DS or whatever.

Its only really in the past 10 years that people seem to be needing a “why” does it work explanation.

What is odd is the fact that these “why” things only seem to get some fans feathers ruffled if its surrounds ST.

The stupid physics stuff from OT and PT for that matter is rarely questioned or even examined.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Wor-Gar]

People who "need to know" how things in a fantasy movie 'actually work' have larger problems in real life. Its called, at the moment, OCD and its part of the autism spectrum.... and as you know, I'm a big fan.

These people are the same ones who get mad with the slightest color variation or imbalance on movie versions of comic book heroes outfits but completely accept the impossible stunts they perform without regard to physics.


Have you not noticed lately that the world is getting stranger all the time?

 

[TaliBane]

People who "need to know" how things in a fantasy movie 'actually work' have larger problems in real life. Its called, at the moment, OCD and its part of the autism spectrum.... and as you know, I'm a big fan.

These people are the same ones who get mad with the slightest color variation or imbalance on movie versions of comic book heroes outfits but completely accept the impossible stunts they perform without regard to physics.


Have you not noticed lately that the world is getting stranger all the time?

It's all a secret evil plot launched from 1980s Indiana, complete with millions in tie-in deals.

 

[e30ernest]

I don't know that I've ever seen anyone defend the Mary Poppins scene. Even the most diehard TLJ fans seem to acknowledge that it was terribly done. But the dropping bombs via the ship's internal artificial gravity does line up with SW "physics" from previous films.

Hey I defended it the first few weeks the movie came out. I defended the scientific plausibility of it (since the critics mostly thought decompression will kill/freeze you instantly). I appreciated that scene for its plausibility (something rarely seen in a SW movie) but yeah, it was hardly necessary in terms of plot.

In order for the "Holdo Manuever" to work, the target (Snoke's ship in this case), would need to be in the path of a pre-established hyperspace route. The Death Star, for instance, would not be in the middle of a hyperspace route. Therefore, the opportunity to employ hyperspace kamikaze has that prerequisite because that's how hyperspace travel works (pre-established "lanes" that take you through another dimension of space, but that still need to account for "shadows" of large objects that affect gravitational pulls).*

Firstly, thank you for your research on that. I knew the existence of hyperspace routes, but I've always had trouble imagining how that would work if ships can only go into hyperspace via those routes.

To me, hyperspace routes were akin to shipping lanes on our oceans, or air traffic lanes for aircraft. Basically, you can take off from any point and enter these lanes for safe travel. Basically, these are well-known safe navigable routes.

As for your example on the emperor's secret route, it could just be a secret route that allows one to traverse that space in the shortest possible way via hyperspace. There could be stellar objects in the way for example, or even thick dust/gas clouds that would make normal hyperspace travel to that location difficult/time consuming.

Where does it say you can only enter hyperspace through such a route?

With the vastness of space (even the SW galaxy is vast), only being able to enter hyperspace in fixed routes poses a very big problem. What if your hyperspace route is years away at relativistic speeds?

So the way I interpret it, you can perform a hyperspace jump anywhere in space but it comes at a risk because you don't know if you'll hit something along the way. So most hyperspace jumps are aimed at getting to a hyperspace route that would lead towards the ship's final destination, rather than the route itself as serving as a gateway into hyperspace.

In that regard, the Holdo maneuver would have worked. And yes, that ship would have inflicted a lot of damage when it hit.

 

[ajp4mgs]

As for your example on the emperor's secret route, it could just be a secret route that allows one to traverse that space in the shortest possible way via hyperspace. There could be stellar objects in the way for example, or even thick dust/gas clouds that would make normal hyperspace travel to that location difficult/time consuming.

The Emperor's secret hyperspace route, according to that novel, had to be *built* by the Empire. In fact, the context on that very same page suggests that it would have taken such extensive resources that the project would've bankrupted entire star systems. I don't think there's any way that merely discovering an existing secret "shortcut" would bankrupt entire star systems. Nor would methodically planting beacons (for example) to designate a secret path bankrupt entire star systems.

I think the implication intended in that novel is that the Empire actually took the extraordinary step of creating hyperspace access where there was none before. That *would* be the type of thing to be so outrageously costly as to make Leia and the Rebel admirals marvel at the achievement (as they did in the narrative spelled out on that same page).

In other words, the Empire actually *built* hyperspace access to Endor where none had existed before. It'd be like building a secret tunneled highway through a mountain range. Without such a tunnel, it would take a much longer time to drive around those mountains to get to your destination. In space, that extra travel time at sublight speed could mean days or months, but more likely even years!

Where does it say you can only enter hyperspace through such a route?

As far as I know, it doesn't say that anywhere. I wasn't suggesting that you can only *enter* hyperspace through a pre-established route/lane. What I'm saying is that I believe you have to "make the jump" into one of these lanes in order to travel *through* hyperspace by using them. So, in the Holdo scenario, the Supremacy would need to be in the direct path of a hyperspace route/lane that the Raddus would jump to (and collide with the Supremacy in the process).

Another way of looking at it is that if the FO fleet had veered off course from their straight-line pursuit of the Raddus's trajectory, Holdo wouldn't have been able to trap them into the path of her jump to hyperspace. This is conjecture on my part, though. No matter what, there are plenty of other factors that would've kept anyone from being able to (or even wanting to) employ this tactic in the past.

So the way I interpret it, you can perform a hyperspace jump anywhere in space but it comes at a risk because you don't know if you'll hit something along the way. So most hyperspace jumps are aimed at getting to a hyperspace route that would lead towards the ship's final destination, rather than the route itself as serving as a gateway into hyperspace.

In that regard, the Holdo maneuver would have worked. And yes, that ship would have inflicted a lot of damage when it hit.

Exactly! You articulated it far better than I have. These hyperdrive ships in SW can conceivably make the jump from anywhere in space, but they make the jump into these hyperspace lanes. That jump itself is what needs to be calculated and plotted in order to avoid impediments (like stars, black holes, etc.). Making the jump into one of these lanes without making the precise calculations first would be very perilous.

But, as Khev noted, it's best not to question this stuff too much. Star Wars has always worked best when you just accept the crazy "science" presented on screen and let the fantasy element take over. Remember when Obi-Wan (on Kamino) was having a holo-projection discussion *in real time* with Yoda and Mace (on Coruscant)? How would that conversation happen without any delay/lag in transmissions? It wouldn't. We just overlook these sort of things because the level of suspended disbelief required to enjoy SW movies needs to be almost boundless.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It's all a secret evil plot launched from 1980s Indiana, complete with millions in tie-in deals.

I came here to collect dolls and chew bubble gum.... and I'm all out of bubble gum.

 

[e30ernest]

The Emperor's secret hyperspace route, according to that novel, had to be *built* by the Empire. In fact, the context on that very same page suggests that it would have taken such extensive resources that the project would've bankrupted entire star systems. I don't think there's any way that merely discovering an existing secret "shortcut" would bankrupt entire star systems. Nor would methodically planting beacons (for example) to designate a secret path bankrupt entire star systems.

I think the implication intended in that novel is that the Empire actually took the extraordinary step of creating hyperspace access where there was none before. That *would* be the type of thing to be so outrageously costly as to make Leia and the Rebel admirals marvel at the achievement (as they did in the narrative spelled out on that same page).

In other words, the Empire actually *built* hyperspace access to Endor where none had existed before. It'd be like building a secret tunneled highway through a mountain range. Without such a tunnel, it would take a much longer time to drive around those mountains to get to your destination. In space, that extra travel time at sublight speed could mean days or months, but more likely even years!

That could also be interpreted as a clearing operation (clearing the intended route of obstacles) similar to a road paving endeavor. So the laying down of navigational beacons, plus removal of obstructions that can be removed will probably be in itself be a very resource intensive process given the distances involved as well. They probably didn't create a hyperspace corridor, but rather cleared the way for safe hyperspace travel. IMO that would be a more plausible route.

Another way of looking at it is that if the FO fleet had veered off course from their straight-line pursuit of the Raddus's trajectory, Holdo wouldn't have been able to trap them into the path of her jump to hyperspace. This is conjecture on my part, though. No matter what, there are plenty of other factors that would've kept anyone from being able to (or even wanting to) employ this tactic in the past.

Given that ships can jump anytime towards a known route, then the Holdo maneuver wouldn't need to be along said route. If the ships can jump from anywhere towards a hyperspace route, then their jumps wouldn't necessarily be parallel to a route. Am I getting this wrong?

But, as Khev noted, it's best not to question this stuff too much. Star Wars has always worked best when you just accept the crazy "science" presented on screen and let the fantasy element take over. Remember when Obi-Wan (on Kamino) was having a holo-projection discussion *in real time* with Yoda and Mace (on Coruscant)? How would that conversation happen without any delay/lag in transmissions? It wouldn't. We just overlook these sort of things because the level of suspended disbelief required to enjoy SW movies needs to be almost boundless.

True. In real space, you can travel on a straight line and the chances of you hitting anything along the way would be very small given the vast distances between any stellar object. Hyperspace travel in this sense would be similar to Star Trek's warp travel (they just point to their destination and engage warp).

 

[TaliBane]

The Emperor's secret hyperspace route, according to that novel, had to be *built* by the Empire. In fact, the context on that very same page suggests that it would have taken such extensive resources that the project would've bankrupted entire star systems. I don't think there's any way that merely discovering an existing secret "shortcut" would bankrupt entire star systems. Nor would methodically planting beacons (for example) to designate a secret path bankrupt entire star systems.

I think the implication intended in that novel is that the Empire actually took the extraordinary step of creating hyperspace access where there was none before. That *would* be the type of thing to be so outrageously costly as to make Leia and the Rebel admirals marvel at the achievement (as they did in the narrative spelled out on that same page).

In other words, the Empire actually *built* hyperspace access to Endor where none had existed before. It'd be like building a secret tunneled highway through a mountain range. Without such a tunnel, it would take a much longer time to drive around those mountains to get to your destination. In space, that extra travel time at sublight speed could mean days or months, but more likely even years!



As far as I know, it doesn't say that anywhere. I wasn't suggesting that you can only *enter* hyperspace through a pre-established route/lane. What I'm saying is that I believe you have to "make the jump" into one of these lanes in order to travel *through* hyperspace by using them. So, in the Holdo scenario, the Supremacy would need to be in the direct path of a hyperspace route/lane that the Raddus would jump to (and collide with the Supremacy in the process).

Another way of looking at it is that if the FO fleet had veered off course from their straight-line pursuit of the Raddus's trajectory, Holdo wouldn't have been able to trap them into the path of her jump to hyperspace. This is conjecture on my part, though. No matter what, there are plenty of other factors that would've kept anyone from being able to (or even wanting to) employ this tactic in the past.



Exactly! You articulated it far better than I have. These hyperdrive ships in SW can conceivably make the jump from anywhere in space, but they make the jump into these hyperspace lanes. That jump itself is what needs to be calculated and plotted in order to avoid impediments (like stars, black holes, etc.). Making the jump into one of these lanes without making the precise calculations first would be very perilous.

But, as Khev noted, it's best not to question this stuff too much. Star Wars has always worked best when you just accept the crazy "science" presented on screen and let the fantasy element take over. Remember when Obi-Wan (on Kamino) was having a holo-projection discussion *in real time* with Yoda and Mace (on Coruscant)? How would that conversation happen without any delay/lag in transmissions? It wouldn't. We just overlook these sort of things because the level of suspended disbelief required to enjoy SW movies needs to be almost boundless.

Just read over all of your posts. As I always say - approach LFL to see if you could have role there via social media. You're much better than those people. You make it engaging too

So if you were to answer simply the key concerns from TLJ, what would you say to:

1. Why couldn't the rebels in ROTJ have simply sent the Endor shield team down to deactivate it like they do, but instead of endangering everyone in the rebel fleet, send say five of the largest (ie size of raddus or bigger) EMPTY spacecraft they could steal/find, piloted by a droid or auto pilot, into hyperspace and don't stop as the rebel fleet does in ROTJ, and plow right into/through the DSII?

2. Why didn't anyone use force projection in the OT, even for a short "non-fatal" trip (say a minute or so,) for example Ben force-projecting to Alderaan for a minute to tell the rebels about leia's capture and the DSI plans, or Yoda in ESB force-projecting to Bespin to aid the about-to-die Luke (even just enough for Luke to escape ), or Vader using force projection at many points in the OT?