Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[crows]

This. But there should be no safe space

It was foretold...

 

[Popnfresh98]

It was foretold...

Any updates on Rian calling fans a-holes and such? I don’t usually do twitter myself...

Though I did see that it was premeditated - he had a tweet a week ago saying ‘When the facade drops its gonna be sooooooo good,’ mirroring his a-hole comment, ‘I’ve started blocking aholes and it feels soooooo good.’ Must have been consuming him.

 

[crows]

Any updates on Rian calling fans a-holes and such? I don’t usually do twitter myself...

Though I did see that it was premeditated - he had a tweet a week ago saying ‘When the facade drops its gonna be sooooooo good,’ mirroring his a-hole comment, ‘I’ve started blocking aholes and it feels soooooo good.’ Must have been consuming him.

Just banning people en masse. Even people that have never talked to him.
Whats funny is that people can still quote him and curse him out under his hashtag so his friends and followers still see the quoting but he doesnt

 

[FlyAndFight]

TwelveInchFigures, my sincerest apologies.

I made that post as a joke, as there has been a fellow Freak posting a very similar post in just about every figure thread in the Star Wars section of the forum.

I'm truly grateful that you took the time to make your well thought out post, though. AND I agree with everything that you pointed out!!

 

[Prime Clone]

No, please, go into it. Do me that favor so that I can be corrected and see things more properly. Tell me how a story that takes the fall of Anakin Skywalker (one of the most important plot points in the saga), and reduces it to that scene with Mace and Palpatine by the window, is better than how Luke's exile played out.

Remember, Anakin goes from: "Don't kill him, Mace! It's not the Jedi way." to asking himself, "What have I done!?" seconds later. And then after another minute, he's on his knee pledging loyalty to the Dark Side. Jedi to Sith . . . two minutes. That's better writing? That's better plot and character development?

And remember why Anakin fell: to keep Padme from dying. Then he sees Kenobi in the ship and chokes her until she collapses. The woman he gave up his soul and morality to save . . . he puts on the floor as she's carrying his children. That makes more sense than Luke coming out of the rubble that Kylo left behind and deciding to exile himself because he's seeing the Vader tragedy playing itself out again? And because he's partly to blame? And because he has rationalized that the Jedi way hasn't helped the problem? And TLJ actually takes the time to explain that; to offer the justification for Luke exiling himself because he feels it's the best and right thing to do. Even if he was wrong.

And do you think the acting in ROTS is better? Seriously? Christensen, Jackson, and Portman performances were better than any of the acting jobs in TLJ? The visuals are better? The cinematography is better?

I respect everybody's opinion, so please educate me. For all I know, you're like Kenobi here: you've got "the higher ground." So slice me apart.

I'll take that bet.

Yes, the acting and direction was better in TLJ (and the ST overall, for that matter). But the story and cinematography were better in ROTS, and the prequels overall. Particularly the cinematography: The ST just doesn't have the same world-building as the PT, it all feels too Earthlike.

I went into ROTS fully skeptical about how George was going to show the downfall of Anakin in the space of one flick, but he pulled it off and won me over.

Anakin was conflicted right up until the point he fatefully intervened in the Palps-Mace duel, and he knew straight away he'd done the wrong thing. But he was torn between saving Padme and doing what was right. In the end he sold his soul to the devil and went past the point of no return.

When he saw Obi-Wan with Padme he feared the worst and flew into a jealous rage, unable to control his actions. It was perfectly in character.

Back on the subject of whether TLJ was "truly" hated, audience scores are more representative than critic scores, but also more susceptible to ballot-stuffing (and bots!)

 

[Bo Shrek]

I’m starting to feel the the “AVP” effect with TLJ. I had a long list of ‘WTF” moments coming out of AVP back then. Being a fan of both Alien and Predator franchises, AVP is a movie I will watch at least once a year. Today I find that AVP has a excellent replay value. Press play and before you know it the show’s over. Sure I still shake my head in those movies but it is what it is.

TLJ is the same. There are many cringe worthy / shake you head moments but there are also new lore, new things that am drawn to because they are different and not present in movies of the past. TLJ made choices I didn’t like but maybe that’s why I keep watching it. Because what I don’t like is different from what I am used too.

 

[JAWS]

Though I did just have Snoop change it to say:

JAWS for mod

No way... Way to much responsibility

 

[JAWS]

I'll take that bet.

Yes, the acting and direction was better in TLJ (and the ST overall, for that matter). But the story and cinematography were better in ROTS, and the prequels overall. Particularly the cinematography: The ST just doesn't have the same world-building as the PT, it all feels too Earthlike.

 

[crows]

I’m starting to feel the the “AVP” effect with TLJ. I had a long list of ‘WTF” moments coming out of AVP back then. Being a fan of both Alien and Predator franchises, AVP is a movie I will watch at least once a year. Today I find that AVP has a excellent replay value. Press play and before you know it the show’s over. Sure I still shake my head in those movies but it is what it is.

TLJ is the same. There are many cringe worthy / shake you head moments but there are also new lore, new things that am drawn to because they are different and not present in movies of the past. TLJ made choices I didn’t like but maybe that’s why I keep watching it. Because what I don’t like is different from what I am used too.

Or matrix reloaded

I do love avp a lot. I love the preds. I love the sets. I love the action.
It is a beautiful movie. The effects are great.

No way... Way to much responsibility

Jaws for site owner

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'll take that bet.

Yes, the acting and direction was better in TLJ (and the ST overall, for that matter). But the story and cinematography were better in ROTS, and the prequels overall. Particularly the cinematography: The ST just doesn't have the same world-building as the PT, it all feels too Earthlike.

I went into ROTS fully skeptical about how George was going to show the downfall of Anakin in the space of one flick, but he pulled it off and won me over.

Anakin was conflicted right up until the point he fatefully intervened in the Palps-Mace duel, and he knew straight away he'd done the wrong thing. But he was torn between saving Padme and doing what was right. In the end he sold his soul to the devil and went past the point of no return.

When he saw Obi-Wan with Padme he feared the worst and flew into a jealous rage, unable to control his actions. It was perfectly in character.

Back on the subject of whether TLJ was "truly" hated, audience scores are more representative than critic scores, but also more susceptible to ballot-stuffing (and bots!)

Thank you for providing your point of view. And I want to preface what I write from here on out by stating that all of this is nothing more than a difference of opinion, and in no way am I suggesting that your opinion is wrong (opinions can't be right or wrong, obviously).

Cinematography: Okay. I can understand your point of view. I thought TLJ was shot incredibly well, and some dramatic moments were framed exceptionally. Some scenes (Luke Force-blasting the hut where Rey and Kylo touch hands, Rey and Luke "sword-fighting," the Kylo turning on Snoke throne room part - among others) always strike me as framed and shot really impressively. If we're going to extend this category to include sets and settings, I much prefer ones that are practical, and aren't almost entirely CGI. The CGI settings can be too distracting for me, and can take me out of the film.

Anakin's turn: This one's a big one for me. It's one thing for Anakin to be conflicted throughout the film; that's fine for subtext. But, to go from turning Palpatine over to the Jedi council one minute, to then kneeling in allegiance to a Sith Master the next? I can't understand how that's an acceptable version of this long-awaited moment. And then the conflicted Anakin goes through with his pledge to Palps even after Padme died? Wasn't she the reason he wanted to tap into the Dark Side in the first place? So after she's gone, why's he still going through with it all? What happened to the conflict? If he was supposed to be torn between good and bad, what happened to the good after Padme died? The conflict in him was a decisive factor because of Padme, right? Without her, what appeal did the Dark Side have for him? Was it ever explained in the context of the movie, beyond the Padme motives?

A jealous rage from Anakin would be in character, yes. But, raging against the one person who's safety was so paramount that it turned him to the Dark Side? On the same day that the need for her safety drove him to the Sith? I just can't get there, man. Sorry. And there's so much more in ROTS that made me either roll my eyes or shake my head.

TLJ being hated is fine with me. What I find problematic is when people take the dislike/hate for the film and project it as truth that TLJ is a bad film instead of that merely being an opinion. Opinions are fine. Differences of opinion are fine. Pretending that one's opinion is fact, though: kinda weird, and pretty delusional.

We have a difference of opinion about ROTS and TLJ, but I still respect your point of view. You're not "wrong" just because I disagree with you. And I thank you again for posting your response.

 

[TaliBane]

I love the smell of cold, hard facts in the morning.

Khev is presented with the pretty sobering/disturbing COMPLETE OFFICIAL FIGURES for TLJ home video (Blu/DVD/Stream-DTO/core rentals) and then writes...

Yes, for whatever reason it's very important to the most vocal group of bashers to state their opinions as facts and to dismiss facts (critical reviews, box office, etc.) as opinions, lol. Calling them out on such silliness isn't going to make them own up to what they're doing so I find it best to simply not address them directly at all anymore.

Obviously that's not to say that criticisms against TLJ (or even open dislike/hate) aren't true or valid for any given person but the lengths that some bashers will go to distort reality in an attempt to prove that their singular opinions are objective and "correct" is pretty mind boggling.

"state their opinions as facts".... "dismiss facts as opinion".... "isn't going to make them own up to what they're doing"...

Cold hard facts have no place in this thread apparently. I mean let's just agree that these figures are EVIDENCE that there was a fairly significant problem with TLJ and the fan backlash was not at all some "tiny" fringe group, and the RT score thing was not bots or some group of hackers. That a pretty large percentage of fans did indeed strongly dislike it. These figures aren't hyperbole or spin or opinion to Disney - they are what they actually received in actual dollars.

Sales figures are indeed facts - stating them doesn't turn them into an opinion.

 

[crows]

 

[Khev]

I’m starting to feel the the “AVP” effect with TLJ. I had a long list of ‘WTF” moments coming out of AVP back then. Being a fan of both Alien and Predator franchises, AVP is a movie I will watch at least once a year. Today I find that AVP has a excellent replay value. Press play and before you know it the show’s over. Sure I still shake my head in those movies but it is what it is.

TLJ is the same. There are many cringe worthy / shake you head moments but there are also new lore, new things that am drawn to because they are different and not present in movies of the past. TLJ made choices I didn’t like but maybe that’s why I keep watching it. Because what I don’t like is different from what I am used too.

This is an absolutely excellent point. I know that you're comparing TLJ to AVP (an unflattering comparison to say the least) however I find your overall point to be incredibly sound and one I totally agree with. Many people complain about any new movie that has such and such element that "isn't Star Wars." Well if I want 100% pure Star Wars I always have the 1977 original. And the entire OT. But I love that RO felt like an 80's James Cameron war movie set in the SW universe. And that Solo feels like a Western/train robbery movie set in SW. And that TFA and TLJ are branching off even while adhering to many OT staples (to a fault.)

Lucas knew that the best way to continue the Saga wasn't just to make movies that all feel exactly like ANH. He tried to go full "Roger Rabbit" in TPM with Jar Jar to disasterous resoluts. AOTC's execution was also an unfortunate disaster but his attempt to try and make a SW film with heavy detective/mystery elements was totally on point. These new films are continuing in that vein but with much more respectable and even often spectacular results. It's fun to have such a broad array of options.

 

[crows]

This is an absolutely excellent point. I know that you're comparing TLJ to AVP (an unflattering comparison to say the least) however I find your overall point to be incredibly sound and one I totally agree with. Many people complain about any new movie that has such and such element that "isn't Star Wars." Well if I want 100% pure Star Wars I always have the 1977 original. And the entire OT. But I love that RO felt like an 80's James Cameron war movie set in the SW universe. And that Solo feels like a Western/train robbery movie set in SW. And that TFA and TLJ are branching off even while adhering to many OT staples (to a fault.)

Lucas knew that the best way to continue the Saga wasn't just to make movies that all feel exactly like ANH. He tried to go full "Roger Rabbit" in TPM with Jar Jar to disasterous resoluts. AOTC's execution was also an unfortunate disaster but his attempt to try and make a SW film with heavy detective/mystery elements was totally on point. These new films are continuing in that vein but with much more respectable and even often spectacular results. One thing I love about Marvel is that because of the different studios that own the various characters we have all these different flavors (Avengers, Logan, DOFP, the upcoming New Mutants horror movie, Ang Lee's Hulk and TIH, tons of different styles of Spider-Man movies, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.) same with all the various DC flicks from Donner, to Burton, to Nolan, Snyder.

Now I'm not saying that I want SW movies that share the same canon to go from Chris Nolan in one Episode to Joel Schumacher in another but watching TLJ the other day made me realize that it really kind of is the "GotG" of the SW Saga. Heroes openly mocking and humiliating the bad guys, battles that are all pretty silly if you dissect them, great spectacle but still with some genuine feels. Oh and Benicio Del Toro, lol. TLJ and GotG obviously aren't one in the same but TLJ definitely leans more heavily in that direction than any previous SW film...

Spoiler

Khev, my bro, why is comparing last jedi to avp unflattering? Avp made a hufe load of money, it was super sucessful.

 

[ajp4mgs]

He tried to go full "Roger Rabbit" in TPM with Jar Jar

You made a lot of other good substantive points in your post, but this one hit the spot for me. Thank you. About 20 years later and I still can't believe Lucas thought the Jar Jar concept wasn't just strong enough to make the film, but to get extensive screen time. Amazing! This is why you shouldn't surround yourself with nothing but yes-men, kids.

 

[crows]

You made a lot of other good substantive points in your post, but this one hit the spot for me. Thank you. About 20 years later and I still can't believe Lucas thought the Jar Jar concept wasn't just strong enough to make the film, but to get extensive screen time. Amazing! This is why you shouldn't surround yourself with nothing but yes-men, kids.

Jar jar was meant to be a sith the same way yoda started as a goofy muppet when luke encpunters him and became the jedi master

You can tell all the signs like destroying all those robots by "accident"
He was meant to be evil in the sequel.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Jar jar was meant to be a sith the same way yoda started as a goofy muppet when luke encpunters him and became the jedi master

You can tell all the signs like destroying all those robots by "accident"
He was meant to be evil in the sequel.

Brilliant!! I take it all back, Mr. Lucas; you never lost your genius. What a swerve! Tongue getting caught in the podracer pulse, stepping in dung, "conveniently" juggling boombas that end up taking out battle droids at the perfect time . . . all part of the ruse. Damn, GL, you're the man!

 

[JAWS]

Jaws for site owner

 

[Prime Clone]

But, to go from turning Palpatine over to the Jedi council one minute, to then kneeling in allegiance to a Sith Master the next? I can't understand how that's an acceptable version of this long-awaited moment.

Again, he was torn between doing the right thing (turning in Palps) and his own selfish needs (saving Padme).

It added an extra layer of moral complexity when Mace wanted to kill Palps because it was too dangerous to keep him alive. Anakin didn't think that was "the Jedi way" and intervened.

And remember his quote when kneeling before Palps: "I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her." He's in full-on soul-selling mode.

And then the conflicted Anakin goes through with his pledge to Palps even after Padme died? Wasn't she the reason he wanted to tap into the Dark Side in the first place? So after she's gone, why's he still going through with it all?

I'll admit this is a harder leap to make, but I put it down to him losing everything he cared about, so all that's left now is to help rule the galaxy (which was one of his original ambitions). And it's not explicitly spelt out until ESB, but Vader starts plotting Palps' downfall from that very moment.

A jealous rage from Anakin would be in character, yes. But, raging against the one person who's safety was so paramount that it turned him to the Dark Side? On the same day that the need for her safety drove him to the Sith? I just can't get there, man. Sorry.

There are a few things going on here that I'll admit the movie doesn't spell out very well. Anakin is paranoid both about a romance between Padme and Obi-Wan, and about the pair conspiring to kill him. He makes one last effort to convince Padme to join him, then realises he's lost her. Seeing Obi-Wan pushes him over the edge.

We have a difference of opinion about ROTS and TLJ, but I still respect your point of view. You're not "wrong" just because I disagree with you. And I thank you again for posting your response.

Ditto!

 

[TaliBane]

View attachment 413408

Sorry, it's been determined that JAWS is using an unlicensed trademark image and username, so he cannot be site owner or a mod and must leave by June 20th.