Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[e30ernest]

Actually they do, it had the same drop off in percentage from TFA, that AotC had from TPM. Most considered AotC the most hated film up until TLJ came out. Initial projections for TLJ were set at 1.8bil and it fell 500million short of them.

The same drop-off can be seen from the original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. At worse, all that says is that it is indeed polarizing, but it doesn't indicate that the hate was as bad as people say it was. Again, if it were as hated as people stated it to be, the drop-off would be worse. It wouldn't have had the multiplier it had.

Also if people were disappointed with it - they had to see it to be disappointed with it. How many of that 1.3billion worth of viewers hated it? We can't know for sure. Even with Solo failing we can't be certain. Only Episode 9 will tell.

Yeah I agree with this. I see Solo as a case of people simply not being interested. Episode 9 can be a good indicator of how good/bad public opinion has over TLJ. If it does TLJ numbers, I think the franchise is still safe.

 

[ironwez20]

The box office numbers of TLJ do support the theory that the majority did not hate it though. If it was as hated as some people in the internet say it was, it would have not broken 1 billion. It had a big opening so for it to continue to that height it would have had to have a lot of repeat viewings too.

The people that state the majority hated the film have no numbers to back that up whatsoever.

Dude people came out to see TLJ in droves and hated it. Word got out and people couldn't believe it and had to see it for themselves. It breaking a billion doesn't mean people liked it. During its first couple of weeks people came out to see it cause it's star wars.

 

[TaliBane]

Weird, not everybody thinks it needs an overhaul. Like maybe YOU do, but there are just as many people (like myself) that are completely happy with the way the story is going and cannot wait to see the last chapter in this trilogy.

Not targeting anyone in particular, it's just this is a small fraction of fans in these forums and the majority are older fans who do not want the old cast gone. I get that, but you have to know there are many fans who are younger and do not hold Luke, Han and Leia in the same regard.

I am in the portion of older fans who are completely happy with the direction TLJ set Star Wars on. I do hope Episode 9 is the last of the saga films for a long time (like 10 years at least) They can just make the side movies for a long time, but space it to every 2 years.

I think Episode 9 will do just fine. Part of Solo's problem (again my opinion) is the younger audience does not really care for a movie about a young Han Solo. I cannot even grasp this concept, but working with middle school kids, the SW fans I asked mostly didn't care or even know about it. They just wondered when the next one with "Rey and Kylo Ren" was coming out.


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TLJ's audience was almost 2/3's over 25. My guess is that probably half of that remaining third that WAS under the age of 25 were the kids of those over 25's. Demographically, Disney Star Wars is majority older and male. The average age of pre-sale ticket holders for TFA was 34. It was estimated that on opening weekend 70% of the audience was male and between 18 to 49 age. Rogue One was even more male and older.

It's a lie that Disney's SW movies have a huge new kid or female demographic and that a small group of older male fans - a fading and less important demographic - are spoiling it for the new generation. Every Disney SW movie is overwhelmingly servicing an older male demographic, and is not drawing large numbers of kids or females of any age.

The reason we all assume that's not the case is that the media is constantly trying to will the reverse with a counter-narrative, to take the exception and present it as the rule.

Ask yourself: if the force really is female now, if SW is now this huge female demographic... would you need a shirt or hashtag that says that?

 

[Popnfresh98]

The same drop-off can be seen from the original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. At worse, all that says is that it is indeed polarizing, but it doesn't indicate that the hate was as bad as people say it was. Again, if it were as hated as people stated it to be, the drop-off would be worse. It wouldn't have had the multiplier it had.



Yeah I agree with this. I see Solo as a case of people simply not being interested. Episode 9 can be a good indicator of how good/bad public opinion has over TLJ. If it does TLJ numbers, I think the franchise is still safe.

I'm not saying the hate is as bad as people say. I'm just saying when you positively without doubt called them a 'vocal minority' you had no way of knowing that. I honestly think it must be closer to 50/50, and would agree with you that it was polarizing.

As for Solo - again it's hard to say how much impact it had, only Episode 9 will tell if there's a true boycott and how big it is. But again box office means nothing, Transformers 4 made 1.1 billion and I've never spoken to anyone who liked it.

Interesting side tidbit though - as you keep bringing up BvS - it raked in almost 900mil, and JL which everyone already knew was a trainwreck and which was ridiculed for months before it came out somehow made 650mil. TLJ made 1.3b, and Solo won't even pass 350-375mil even with good word of mouth. Things like that make it seem that there is a bit more to it than just disinterest, but again I can't say how much.

 

[cerealkeller]

"Kid SW fan, 6 -8 graders" .....

these people really full of their ***

BTW, Ep9 fate is dommed..with or without Kennedy

What? "these people really full of their..."

I...don't understand what you are even saying. Are you angry typing?

Also I think you meant doomed and not dommed but I guess that could be a word I have not seen before.


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[e30ernest]

Dude people came out to see TLJ in droves and hated it. Word got out and people couldn't believe it and had to see it for themselves. It breaking a billion doesn't mean people liked it. During its first couple of weeks people came out to see it cause it's star wars.

In the same way people went in droves to see how terrible BvS was? Almost half of it's final numbers came from its opening weekend. People would have gone out to see it because it was Batman AND Superman in the same movie. A movie disliked by its audience won't sell because people won't tell their friends to watch it and people won't come back to rewatch it.

TLJ's audience was almost 2/3's over 25. My guess is that probably half of that remaining third that WAS under the age of 25 were the kids of those over 25's. Demographically, Disney Star Wars is majority older and male. The average age of pre-sale ticket holders for TFA was 34. It was estimated that on opening weekend 70% of the audience was male and between 18 to 49 age. Rogue One was even more male and older.

The Star Wars films do lean a lot on Nostalgia (being over 40 years old now) so that isn't surprising. I'm not even sure if the animated shows drew lots of kid viewers either. I think most viewers were from around the PT era.

Personally, I'm not sure if banking on nostalgia (like how they so far did) is a sustainable solution for LFL and Disney. They should be looking out to expand the universe rather than delve in the original characters from the OT. They should stop making prequels too IMO. Except for an Obi-Wan movie. I want an Obi Wan movie.

 

[TaliBane]

The box office numbers of TLJ do support the theory that the majority did not hate it though. If it was as hated as some people in the internet say it was, it would have not broken 1 billion. It had a big opening so for it to continue to that height it would have had to have a lot of repeat viewings too.

The people that state the majority hated the film have no numbers to back that up whatsoever.

It was the sequel to the highest grossing domestic film of all time. It was the long-awaited return of Luke Skywalker, iconic hero of the OT, as a main character, in the aftermath of the death of the other iconic hero of the OT, Han. The script could have been a roll with a brown smear down the middle and it would have earned a billion.

Franchise movies earn based on the goodwill of their predecessor - TLJ traded on TFA's (massive) goodwill. Solo traded on TLJ's goodwill. Or lack thereof.

TLJ also had:

- a UNIQUE Disney requirement that theaters (4250) play it for four weeks without dropping a single showing (some showing to empty theaters)
- a massive cratering in repeat "fan" business in the weeks after the first ten days vs TFA and even RO (eroding expectations from $1.7B, to $1.5B to $1.3B)
- early figures now suggesting that TLJ's home video launch was half what TFA did, and weaker across all formats
- merchandising that missed Disney's projected target by a fairly wide margin

 

[cerealkeller]

Are you sure its not the SEVERAL people YOU talked to? Cause all i'm seeing from kids and adults is complete distaste. Both online and real life. Don't know who your talking to either. And it's not just action figures. Any kind of ST merch is not being bought. I don't care much cause I'll always love star wars but I don't like this new direction. Also not every one who hates the movie will make a video.

Sometimes when we like something alot we will look at the postives and positives only and shut out all the other negative views from people and surround themselves with people who think the same

I manage a movie theater and work with teenagers and talk with customers. I'm not saying everybody loves it, but the way you make it sound like since YOU don't like it and all the videos you look up (never mind that since you watch negative videos about it, that is what YouTube will bring up for you next ) is what everybody thinks. Not everybody thinks like you. Or the people you look up that say negative stuff about Last Jedi.

Personally, life is too short to always look at negative aspects all the time. I have liked or loved every Disney SW movie that's come out. They are not perfect, but if I did not like one of them, I certainly would t spend my time writing about how much i hate it either. Just seems that 90% of posters in these threads spend all their time spewing how much they hate that nobody who actually liked it wants to post about anything. Gets annoying really fast.


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[TaliBane]

The same drop-off can be seen from the original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. At worse, all that says is that it is indeed polarizing, but it doesn't indicate that the hate was as bad as people say it was. Again, if it were as hated as people stated it to be, the drop-off would be worse. It wouldn't have had the multiplier it had.

Comparing the OT era and today in terms of box office is ridiculous. That was an era where movies were in a few hundred theaters for for the better part of a year, today 90% of the BO is earned in the first 3-4 weeks from 4000+ theaters. We're in an era where Avengers Ultron makes $1.4B, then Avengers IW makes $2.1B. JW makes $1.6B, JW2 will make $2B.

This is the mega-franchise IP era where sequels often outgross predecessors if the franchise is healthy - trying to compare to an era of payphones, newspapers and telex machines is what lazy journalists do to try to legitimize TLJ.

 

[e30ernest]

I'm not saying the hate is as bad as people say. I'm just saying when you positively without doubt called them a 'vocal minority' you had no way of knowing that. I honestly think it must be closer to 50/50, and would agree with you that it was polarizing.

Ok that's a fair point. I won't call them a vocal minority then. Will just "vocal" do?

This really reeks of forum threads reporting an issue on let's say a figure, then everyone concluding that it's a widespread issue, when it could have very well been a tiny percentage of figures released. Sometimes there really are issues, but a lot of times it's overblown. We see it here a lot of times.

Interesting side tidbit though - as you keep bringing up BvS - it raked in almost 900mil, and JL which everyone already knew was a trainwreck and which was ridiculed for months before it came out somehow made 650mil. TLJ made 1.3b, and Solo won't even pass 350-375mil even with good word of mouth. Things like that make it seem that there is a bit more to it than just disinterest, but again I can't say how much.

BvS did indeed make a fair amount of cash, but it didn't have the legs. Almost half of its total box office sales in the USA came from its opening for example. Likewise, while TLJ did earn less than TFA, it was still a billion-dollar film. Hardly a failure in that regard at least.

Solo, I really think there is an overwhelmingly lack of interest in this for the following reasons:

1. It's already a character with a complete arc. We've seen a young Han Solo in the OT, his rise from a mere smuggler to a galactic hero, and his eventual death in the hands of his son.
2. He not only had a complete character arc, it was also just (relatively) recently concluded.
3. A Solo prequel does not add anything to the current trilogy. I did not go see it myself because I felt it wasn't important enough to the story. Rogue One at least had a direct impact to the story of the OT (it showed how the rebels got the Death Star plans). What did Solo add?
4. The press leading up to Solo was bad. From talks of bad acting, firing of its original directors and talk of reshoots. It sounded like Suicide Squad and/or Justice League all over again.
5. People already link the character to Harrison Ford. This was a film that came too soon.

If a Boba Fett movie happens, I think it would do worse based on the above unless they find a way to link it to the current trilogy arc, or if they find a way to make Boba Fett affect the larger SW story.

That's why I think they'll find more success if they let go of the nostalgia factor and make movies that would push the story forward.

 

[e30ernest]

Comparing the OT era and today in terms of box office is ridiculous.

I am comparing Star Wars to Empire Strikes Back because the previous post compared TPM to AOTC to show that the drop between TFA and TLJ was because of bad feedback/movie goer disatisfaction. I am not comparing their BO numbers directly. Just relative performance between parts 1 and 2 of the respective trilogies.

This is the mega-franchise IP era where sequels often outgross predecessors if the franchise is healthy - trying to compare to an era of payphones, newspapers and telex machines is what lazy journalists do to try to legitimize TLJ.

In the same vein that AoU did worse than Avengers (I remember all that talk of superhero fatigue). Is the MCU franchise unhealthy? Sequels don't always earn more than their predecessors.

 

[Khev]

The people that state the majority hated the film have no numbers to back that up whatsoever.

Yep, and they'll spin whatever numbers they do have to support the narrative they're pushing while ignoring all evidence to the contrary. RT audience scores are "proof" that the majority hated it! (Ignore Metacritic audience scores and RT critic scores.) Dwindling blu-ray sales are "proof" that audiences hated it! (Ignore the fact that every year streaming services are up and blu-ray sales are down.) Same earnings as the worldwide phenomenon Black Panther? Meaningless! It made much less than TFA so that's "proof" audiences hated it! (Ignore the fact that ESB had a similar drop from the original SW.) Solo is underperforming? "Proof" that SW fans are lashing out against LFL and boycotting due to their hatred of TLJ! (Ignore the fact that Celebration 2019 is selling out almost a year sooner than Celebration 2017 did.)

And they'll laugh at the notion that there might be something fishy about the RT audience scores while simultaneously claiming that the RT critic scores are fishy because "Disney paid them off," and so on.

Does the majority of SW fans hate TLJ? I can't say. I can only speak to my own opinions and look to the various stats that do *not* conclusively prove that most hated it. But some apparently just can't accept the fact that the numbers don't support their narrative and so must spin, spin, spin, every chance they get.

 

[RavenEye]

Yeah this was shown to my son's entire school too (ranging from pre-schoolers to senior high) and the general consensus was positive among the kids. Coming out of the theater, they seemed like they had a really good time.

I find the conclusion that "majority hated TLJ" to be absurd because it is still a billion dollar film. It was positive among critics and it got an A Cinemascore. If it was really as universally hated, it wouldn't have had the legs it did, and it wouldn't have broken $1B.

I gave the example earlier in this thread, but BvS was panned critically and audiences. See how far that got....

What consensus? That's speculation and I hereby object testimony without further evidence to support the conjecture.

 

[TaliBane]

Yep, and they'll spin whatever numbers they do have to support the narrative they're pushing while ignoring all evidence to the contrary. RT audience scores are "proof" that the majority hated it! (Ignore Metacritic audience scores and RT critic scores.) Dwindling blu-ray sales are "proof" that audiences hated it! (Ignore the fact that every year streaming services are up and blu-ray sales are down.)

Yes, I suppose it's "spin" to point out TLJ never reached #1 on iTunes DTO (which controls between 1/3 and 1/2 of all that streaming of new releases) or on the core rentals charts... over its first 2-3 weeks of release.

These are the actual numbers... not something residing inside someone's subjective take on the world.

But yes, we'll attribute the fact that TLJ is running at 50% of the Blu-Ray and DVD sales of TFA (Blu: $109m vs $56m by week 4, DVD: $16.8m vs $8m by week 3) to those legions of TLJ fans abandoning disc media to rush to... oh, that's right - streaming services, iTunes being the biggest by far. Back to the charts above...

Don't tell me... its BOTS that are creating the sales figures? C'mon, who's spinning here?

 

[ironwez20]

In the same way people went in droves to see how terrible BvS was? Almost half of it's final numbers came from its opening weekend. People would have gone out to see it because it was Batman AND Superman in the same movie. A movie disliked by its audience won't sell because people won't tell their friends to watch it and people won't come back to rewatch it.



The Star Wars films do lean a lot on Nostalgia (being over 40 years old now) so that isn't surprising. I'm not even sure if the animated shows drew lots of kid viewers either. I think most viewers were from around the PT era.

Personally, I'm not sure if banking on nostalgia (like how they so far did) is a sustainable solution for LFL and Disney. They should be looking out to expand the universe rather than delve in the original characters from the OT. They should stop making prequels too IMO. Except for an Obi-Wan movie. I want an Obi Wan movie.

Sorry buddy. The dceu wasn’t doing so hot and reviews had a hand in the bvs success. TLJ had good reviews . Bad comparison

 

[ironwez20]

I manage a movie theater and work with teenagers and talk with customers. I'm not saying everybody loves it, but the way you make it sound like since YOU don't like it and all the videos you look up (never mind that since you watch negative videos about it, that is what YouTube will bring up for you next ) is what everybody thinks. Not everybody thinks like you. Or the people you look up that say negative stuff about Last Jedi.

Personally, life is too short to always look at negative aspects all the time. I have liked or loved every Disney SW movie that's come out. They are not perfect, but if I did not like one of them, I certainly would t spend my time writing about how much i hate it either. Just seems that 90% of posters in these threads spend all their time spewing how much they hate that nobody who actually liked it wants to post about anything. Gets annoying really fast.


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Ok cool. Same can be said about looking at things positively instead of looking st the big picture is a waste of time. I’m seeing what the majority of people think. I’m not just going to negative videos like you think. I’m seeing it everywhere . Just cause you saw a few people say they liked it doesn’t mean the majority of viewers think so. Like it or not your in the minority. It’s ok to like the movie but it’s universally hated. And yes I agree this forum is harsh but TLJ hate is deserved imo. The director got what he wanted.

Literally nothing but hate for the movie whenever it’s mentioned with like two people saying “ ya know it ain’t that bad”

TLJ merch on clearance.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I don't mind when people express their negative opinion of TLJ. I understand. I even recognize that many criticisms are perfectly valid. But, when people here start projecting their opinion as an objective statement of truth about the artistic failure of TLJ as a film, I can't help but laugh.

If you want to insist that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie (as someone earlier objected to calling it "well-made"), then you have to rationalize that every single professional film critic who praised the film is either a shill for Disney, or an *****. All of them! Or, if you admit that such a premise is unlikely, you'd have to argue that your opinion has more merit than someone who has made a living of reviewing films and has seen hundreds (perhaps thousands) of films through a professional prism. That's a really impressive level of conceit!

To suggest that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie, you have to believe that when compared to other contemporary films within the same genre, TLJ is below average in cinematography, acting, dialogue, visual effects, musical score, etc. Below average in those categories? Seriously? Worse than the prequels? Really!? How about some context, shall we?

In a franchise that included a film where the long-anticipated (nearly 20 years) on-screen revelation of how Anakin fell to the dark side and became Vader gave us a two-minute scene to explain it all, TLJ is somehow the worst SW movie? I'm not exaggerating here: Anakin turned to the dark side TWO MINUTES (maybe even fewer) after insisting to Mace Windu that killing Palpatine would violate the Jedi way (and not just to spare him - having just minutes earlier ratted out Palpatine as the Sith master). From faithful Jedi to servant of evil, and you might miss it if you blink. TWO MINUTES it took for Anakin to be on bended knee pledging his loyalty to serve the master of evil. And why? Because he wanted to keep his love interest from dying. Yes, the same love interest he decided to choke (perhaps to death - while she carried his twins) half an hour or so later. TLJ is a worse story and film than that!? Worse acting? Worse dialogue? Worse effects? Come on!

Please go back and get a whiff of stuff in ROTS like the acting when Anakin tells Mace that Palps is the Sith behind the scenes. Worse acting than those two? More cringe-worthy than, "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!?" More poorly done than the explanation of Anakin's turn (kind of a big deal to the whole saga)? Seriously?

 

[xipotec]

Most people consider 3 better than 2. I remember the reviews were pointing that out. It got better reviews too. Most people were happier with it. I recall even people here saying it so.
I can pm you the reviews if you want.

No need....I really didnt like TS 3 much at all.....

No surprise my taste is different. But I believe TS 2 is one of the highest RT scores ever?


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[xipotec]

And why do we keep on insisting on talking about the “majority” hates it or likes it...

Just about every metric I have seen shows about 50%

That mean half the people likes it and half hates it precious....like taters....

So , IRL, you will come across the same odds if your sample size is large enough.

Is that the percent that makes it a good film objectively? I dunno ask BR2049.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[YoNoSe]

It’s weird how often “most people” is replacing “I” lately.