Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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Vaders redemption was not Lukes victory, it was Anakin’s. Although, in the end , it killed him. Once again showing the true power of a Jedi master was self sacrifice for people who needed protection. Similar to the code of the samurai and knights of the table.

..

I think it was Luke’s victory too. Even Obi-wan and Yoda had given up on Vader. Luke pushed all his chips to the table to hopefully redeem his father. He thought he would be destroyed on Death Star as he told the Emperor..... Soon I will be dead and you with me...something like that. He was there to redeem his father even though he would be killed either way most likely. Luke was tempted by Dark Side but did not kill. Jedi’s all have fear and anger but do they give into those feelings. Luke was tempted but did not give in and that was his victory as well.

The difference between Luke and Anakin is that Anakin gave in almost every time to his feelings when he was tempted....Slaughter of Sand People....Marrying Padme....Dooku killing....and killing Mace. Anakin never really passed a major test like Luke did with his convictions of being a Jedi. One could argue Anakin knew the Jedi ways but really was not living the life of a Jedi.


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Luke of course , in TRUE Jedi Master form , realizes whats happening to him, finally accepts Yodas teaching, and saves himself by becoming pacifist, accepting his fate, and allowing his own self sacrifice to be his last honorable act.

The poor OT. The ST can't stand on its own, so in we drag the OT (over and over) to prove the ST was in fact, in the long-winded analysis while co-opting a classic OT scene or two... good.

Coincidentally, Luke becomes a pacifist right after he's cut Vader's hand off, Vader's lost his saber and he's in "I've fallen and can't get up" mode. And all Luke has to face is an old man in a bathrobe whose powers are unknown at that point.

Probably just as well he didn't have this realization and pacifism and "accpeting his fate" moment earlier... when Vader was still standing with a saber in his hand. Because, you know - that might make him an actual pacifist.:dunno

It's also super handy that Palps gave us and Luke the guided tour of what was about to happen before it happened (because we all know that anything a hand-wringing old bad guy says will happen... won't - in the end at least) and also gave us a leering, beat-by-beat commentary as it was happening (thereby doubly reinforcing that was not how things were going to end up)

And of course Luke gives us his competing commentary "Dad, you're a great guy and I won't fight you..." so we KNOW he's about to lose his **** and start wailing on Dad.

Then it all falls to Palps going from "where's my cane?" old guy into a Gran Turino old guy to welcome fate into the picture.

It's all a lot of fun, but your OT-ST interpretation is so... odd. I've seen so many of these "co-opt the OT" arguments in the wake of TLJ (so VERY needed as they are,) but all you're left with is the OT is fun and yet familiar (and predictable to some degree) as all great myth stories are... and the ST is a bunch of OT stuff in a blender. Recognizable chunks you love, but it's fries and thick shake mixed together into a kind of paste that we're told over and over is "new" and we should accept.

But fries and thick shake blended isn't new - it's just the stuff you love that's been abominated, even if you can still kinda detect flavors you love in it. And trace them back as you have done.
 
It's hard for me to believe that the whole "Jedi are pacifists" or "Luke was a pacifist" notions are still being touted here (and elsewhere). The Jedi are NOT pacifists. Pacifism is a philosophy of non-violence, under any circumstances. It is a belief that peaceful resolutions should be the only option to any conflict. The strictest definition of pacifism doesn't even allow for self-defense.

The Jedi are NOT pacifists. Pacifists wouldn't make laser-sword building a part of their tradition. And why? Because a pacifist wouldn't use one.

Luke is NOT a pacifist. Luke was part of the Rebellion! A "rebellion" is an uprising against authority. That's not a passive motive; that is very much a pro-active and violent position. The Rebellion is virtually the opposite of pacifism; that's why they build and purchase weapons - to fight. Luke was a part of the Rebellion. He brandished a lightsaber. He shot blasters. He killed people. Luke was NOT a pacifist.

Luke refused to kill . . . his father! That's a totally self-contained issue. That had nothing to do with a philosophy of non-violence; it had everything to do with family. If Luke was a Pacifist, he wouldn't have brought his lightsaber to Endor (or to the DS2). He would have discouraged his friends from taking the attack to the Emperor, and discouraged their plan to destroy the DS (and the thousands working on/in it).

TLJ Luke's exile and beliefs weren't motivated by pacifism. He was frustrated by the concept of balancing the light and dark sides of the Force. He simply felt (at first) that Jedi hubris (and his own) kept leading to this cycle of Sith rising. He felt that the Force shouldn't be viewed as the sole property of the Jedi, and that it kept leading to Dookus and Vaders and Kylos. So he sought the Jedi Temple in order to burn the sacred texts; then when he dies, he'd thereby end the whole religion.

The most important connection between OT Luke and ST Luke is that he continues to resist and despise the Dark side of the Force. He doesn't despise violence; he despises evil. At the end, he even tells Kylo that "the war is just beginning." I can virtually promise you that he fully understood that war was going to be fought violently. Just like Kenobi did when he helped Luke destroy the first Death Star (lots of violent deaths). Just like Yoda did by encouraging Luke to defeat Vader and the Emperor (and not just at a game of dejarik).

What separated Luke from the other Jedi is that Luke believed in the value of emotional bonds (why it's conceivable he could have taken a wife - unlike every other Jedi), and he relied on emotional bonds being a key to redeem the soul of Anakin - his father. He believed the Emperor would be killed that day at the end of ROTJ. If not by Vader, then by the Rebellion. When he realized that the Emperor was ready for the Rebels, Luke thought he should take matters into his own hands. Vader stepped in. Luke wanted Palpatine dead, just not Anakin. When he pleaded for his father's help as he was being charred by Palps, it was for his father to turn on his master . . . and destroy him.

Luke was NOT opposed to killing. He was opposed to killing his father. That's it. Luke was not opposed to being violent. He was opposed to becoming a Sith. It wasn't an opposition to violent conflict; it was an opposition to using violence for evil. He had no problem using violence to slow down and stop evil. Luke is the ultimate good guy; not the ultimate pacifist.
 
Luke was NOT opposed to killing. He was opposed to killing his father. That's it. Luke was not opposed to being violent. He was opposed to becoming a Sith. It wasn't an opposition to violent conflict; it was an opposition to using violence for evil. He had no problem using violence to slow down and stop evil. Luke is the ultimate good guy; not the ultimate pacifist.


I agree. And TLJ did a very poor job of portraying this. They basically threw this characteristic under the bus to generate sympathy for Kylo.
 
The poor OT. The ST can't stand on its own, so in we drag the OT (over and over) to prove the ST was in fact, in the long-winded analysis while co-opting a classic OT scene or two... good
.

I'll take it one further for you, I have ALWAYS believed Luke started down the path to the dark side... and to quote Yoda...

"once you start down the path to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny...consume you it will.....as it did Obi Wans apprentice."

tenor.gif


It is at this moment it happens.....

The Emporer
" take your Jedi weapon....I am defenseless...strike me down and your JOURNEY TOWARD the dark side is complete".

Luke DOES try to kill the Emperor. Like it or not, he does.

Yoda clearly says Jedi never use the force for attack. Luke FAILED at his lessons here, and he started down the dark path.....

His heroic moment was realizing this, and understanding that fighting and violence was NOT going to save his father or anyone else. He DOES sacrifice himself...he had no idea if Anakin, whom was trying to kill him literal seconds earlier, would save him....his HOPE was the only string he had left to play.

I know many people will never see Luke as anything but a bad *** master Jedi, whom beat the Emperor and Vader single handed and won the war. People have their interpretations, but most of the time they are fed by their own beliefs and not what actually happened. (like thinking the Gammereon Guards were "put to sleep". Luke stopped fighting and allow himself to be killed.....period.

Coincidentally, Luke becomes a pacifist right after he's cut Vader's hand off, Vader's lost his saber and he's in "I've fallen and can't get up" mode. And all Luke has to face is an old man in a bathrobe whose powers are unknown at that point.... Because, you know - that might make him an actual pacifist.:dunno

It not a coincidence...it is literally Luke's defining moment. As show in the picture above...he realizes the path he is on, as Yoda and Palps told him ...as he decides as a hero to take himself out of the equation....He knows that his only card to play is to NOT join the fight...


It's hard for me to believe that the whole "Jedi are pacifists" or "Luke was a pacifist" notions are still being touted here (and elsewhere). The Jedi are NOT pacifists. Pacifism is a philosophy of non-violence, under any circumstances. It is a belief that peaceful resolutions should be the only option to any conflict. The strictest definition of pacifism doesn't even allow for self-defense.

Pacifism may not be the best word. I believe jedi were always ment to be defenders of the innocent, as the Knight of old.....The problem is everytime we see them go on the attack....it leads to bad things. This is why the old Yoda trys to instill in Luke patience and meditation. I think it was the entire POINT of TPM, once the Jedi become more than negotiators and defenders of Naboo......the entire order self destructs...


Yoda: "The Cave, remember your failure in the cave...."
giphy.gif


What was Luke's failure? HE ATTACKED FIRST. Yoda was again trying to show him that giving into his anger and fear...attacking first...would ultimately lead him to turning into someone JUST LIKE HIS FATHER!
EoK8.gif


TLJ Luke's exile and beliefs weren't motivated by pacifism. He was frustrated by the concept of balancing the light and dark sides of the Force. He simply felt (at first) that Jedi hubris (and his own) kept leading to this cycle of Sith rising. He felt that the Force shouldn't be viewed as the sole property of the Jedi, and that it kept leading to Dookus and Vaders and Kylos. So he sought the Jedi Temple in order to burn the sacred texts; then when he dies, he'd thereby end the whole religion.

The most important connection between OT Luke and ST Luke is that he continues to resist and despise the Dark side of the Force. He doesn't despise violence; he despises evil. At the end, he even tells Kylo that "the war is just beginning." I can virtually promise you that he fully understood that war was going to be fought violently. Just like Kenobi did when he helped Luke destroy the first Death Star (lots of violent deaths). Just like Yoda did by encouraging Luke to defeat Vader and the Emperor (and not just at a game of dejarik).

All excellent points, but I would remind you of Obi wan and his final act...self sacrifice. He allowed himself to be killed to save his friends. It could not be more of an mirror image to what Luke does in TLJ......its literally the same concept...People love Obi Wan character.....But for Luke the same ultimate sacrifice and he was viewed as a loser. My belief is similar to this but not the same. While I agree that Luke was constantly struggling with the Dark Side, I do not agree that he thinks war is the answer for Jedi......I think he believes that the Jedi being involved in these wars , in the capacity of warriors, are what make the get out of hand. He knows a war is coming...what I think is he understands if it become Sith versus Jedi again....it will never end. The force users need to become leaders out of violence and war.....not part of the fighting force.

Luke was NOT opposed to killing. He was opposed to killing his father. That's it. Luke was not opposed to being violent. He was opposed to becoming a Sith. It wasn't an opposition to violent conflict; it was an opposition to using violence for evil. He had no problem using violence to slow down and stop evil. Luke is the ultimate good guy; not the ultimate pacifist.

Also correct..>WAS NOT opposed(past tense).......he became that way after seeing what his constant journey to kill Vader as revenge for Obi was doing to him...

Again...Yoda warns him in ROTJ.

Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression - the dark side, are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor...or suffer your father's fate you will. Luke......when gone am I, the last of the Jedi, will you be.

Great conversation guys....My interpretation of the film has been the same basically since I was a teen and could really analyze the scenes when it finally came out on VHS. I had always hoped to see Luke actually continue to struggle against the dark path he started in that scene. Thats why I didn't have trouble with him thinking of attacking Kylo... and as a result enjoyed TLJ. Also being a fan of the comics, and in particular , Dark Empire and The Thrawn Trilogy.
 
The poor OT. The ST can't stand on its own, so in we drag the OT (over and over) to prove the ST was in fact, in the long-winded analysis while co-opting a classic OT scene or two... good.

Coincidentally, Luke becomes a pacifist right after he's cut Vader's hand off, Vader's lost his saber and he's in "I've fallen and can't get up" mode. And all Luke has to face is an old man in a bathrobe whose powers are unknown at that point.

Probably just as well he didn't have this realization and pacifism and "accpeting his fate" moment earlier... when Vader was still standing with a saber in his hand. Because, you know - that might make him an actual pacifist.:dunno

It's also super handy that Palps gave us and Luke the guided tour of what was about to happen before it happened (because we all know that anything a hand-wringing old bad guy says will happen... won't - in the end at least) and also gave us a leering, beat-by-beat commentary as it was happening (thereby doubly reinforcing that was not how things were going to end up)

And of course Luke gives us his competing commentary "Dad, you're a great guy and I won't fight you..." so we KNOW he's about to lose his **** and start wailing on Dad.

Then it all falls to Palps going from "where's my cane?" old guy into a Gran Turino old guy to welcome fate into the picture.

It's all a lot of fun, but your OT-ST interpretation is so... odd. I've seen so many of these "co-opt the OT" arguments in the wake of TLJ (so VERY needed as they are,) but all you're left with is the OT is fun and yet familiar (and predictable to some degree) as all great myth stories are... and the ST is a bunch of OT stuff in a blender. Recognizable chunks you love, but it's fries and thick shake mixed together into a kind of paste that we're told over and over is "new" and we should accept.

But fries and thick

shake blended isn't new - it's just the stuff you love that's been abominated, even if you can still kinda detect flavors you love in it. And trace them back as you have done.

Tali all due respect but that hands down doesn’t make a lick of sense!

How is it dragging the OT to support the ST WHEN THE ST USES THE OT CHARACTERS AND their OT CHARACTER ARCS!

Tali what!

Oh Tali seriously :slap

Shhh please don’t bring up the OT when discussing the ST just ignore the fact that the primary OT characters are in the ST.
 
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I don't think it's so much that people misunderstood the events of ROTJ (boy at least I hope not) as it is people just choosing willful blindness as to how that movie ended in order to better criticize TLJ for not going in the direction that they wanted it to go.
 
Great post... um, except for that. :lol

:lol :lol

Reminds me of all the lines that I misheard as a kid.

"Luck as falls, in attack positions!"

"Cut the shadow, Red Two!"

"We've got to get some kind of a reading on that shield, Han port down!"

"Your friends, out there on the shaynkes surry (???) moon, are walking into a trap..."

etc., lol.
 
I don't think it's so much that people misunderstood the events of ROTJ (boy at least I hope not) as it is people just choosing willful blindness as to how that movie ended in order to better criticize TLJ for not going in the direction that they wanted it to go.




What was it about ROTJ that you guys are seeing that would have led to Luke planning to casually murder his nephew and then running away to hide from his responsibilities for ever after? I don't mind people liking TLJ at all, but I thought it was just awful. This idea that people who didn't enjoy it are just willfully ignorant "Haters" is a bit silly (I probably like more Star Wars movies than you do, just not this one) Although even though it is indeed anybodies right to like anything they wish to, or to not like anything they wish to. I will admit that as a fan of the prequels, I can fully understand why so many people don't like them. But I genuinely can't fathom how any Star Wars fan can like TLJ? never mind get on at the people who don't as if they are poisonous fans. I didn't have a predetermined direction I wanted TLJ to go, I like nothing more than going into a new movie of a franchise I adore not knowing what to expect. I just know after viewing it that it was any other direction than the one they took.
 
What was it about ROTJ that you guys are seeing that would have led to Luke planning to casually murder his nephew and then running away to hide from his responsibilities for ever after?

Well it sounds like you didn't understand what Luke was doing in TLJ either so there wouldn't be any point for me to try and link the character in your mind to what he did in ROTJ.
 
I don't think it's so much that people misunderstood the events of ROTJ (boy at least I hope not) as it is people just choosing willful blindness as to how that movie ended in order to better criticize TLJ for not going in the direction that they wanted it to go.

Well do you remember when Luke and Yoda in ESB....wait I can’t bring that up.

Or how about when Han and Leia in ROTJ....crap wait can’t bring that up either.

No no I got it now how about when Obi-Wan told Luke in ANH that......wait crap!
 
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Well do you remember when Luke and Yoda in ESB....wait I can’t bring that up.

Or how about when Han and Leia....crap wait can’t bring that up either.

No no I got it now how about when Obi-Wan told Luke in ANH that......wait crap!

Yeah don't you dare connect TLJ Luke to any previous movies, that's not allowed, lol.
 
Well it sounds like you didn't understand what Luke was doing in TLJ either so there wouldn't be any point for me to try and link the character in your mind to what he did in ROTJ.

Seems to me like you are using some serious pretzel logic to justify some crappy, out of character writing that most viewers hated.
 
Rian Johnson 2011:

I write sporadically and badly. Without rhyme or reason.



Rian Johnson:

I would be worried if everybody across the board was like "yeah, it was a good movie" it’s much more exciting to me when you get a group of people who are coming up to you who are really really excited about it. Then there are other people who walk out literally saying "it’s the worst movie I’ve ever seen." Having those two extremes is the mark of the type of movie that I want to make.



Rian Johnson:



James Mangold:

Star Wars Last Jedi backlash: Director agrees Rian Johnson got it WRONG?

STAR WARS director Rian Johnson should NOT have messed with The Last Jedi agrees a major Hollywood director.


Star-Wars-backlash-Director-agrees-Rian-Johnson-messed-with-The-Last-Jedi-1416680.jpg

https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...t-Rian-Johnson-Han-Solo-flop-Kathleen-Kennedy

It's becoming a truism.
 
What was it about ROTJ that you guys are seeing that would have led to Luke planning to casually murder his nephew and then running away to hide from his responsibilities for ever after?

Well it sounds like you didn't understand what Luke was doing in TLJ either so there wouldn't be any point for me to try and link the character in your mind to what he did in ROTJ.

What Khev is trying to say here (I think) was that Luke did not "plan" to kill his nephew. The thought crossed his mind, in the same way Luke was tempted by the dark side in the past. Like in the original trilogy, Luke was able to get over the temptation, the thought. It was a fleeting moment but this is what Kylo locked into and remembered. He never "planned" to kill his nephew.

 
All excellent points, but I would remind you of Obi wan and his final act...self sacrifice. He allowed himself to be killed to save his friends. It could not be more of an mirror image to what Luke does in TLJ......its literally the same concept...People love Obi Wan character.....But for Luke the same ultimate sacrifice and he was viewed as a loser. My belief is similar to this but not the same. While I agree that Luke was constantly struggling with the Dark Side, I do not agree that he thinks war is the answer for Jedi......I think he believes that the Jedi being involved in these wars , in the capacity of warriors, are what make the get out of hand. He knows a war is coming...what I think is he understands if it become Sith versus Jedi again....it will never end. The force users need to become leaders out of violence and war.....not part of the fighting force.

We are in agreement when it comes to Luke's sacrifice in TLJ mirroring that of Kenobi's in ANH. That's one of the aspects I love about it. And I agree with you that some fans' perception of Kenobi's sacrifice as heroic, while simultaneously ridiculing Luke's as him being a "loser," can be considered incongruous.

I also agree that Luke had perceived a potential flaw in the Jedi way, in recognizing that the rise of the Sith had been too closely connected with the Jedi in an almost repetitive and futile way.

Where we disagree is in what Luke ultimately believes is the best way forward. From my point of view, Luke has passed the torch to Rey by the end of TLJ. In the pivotal (and for some damn reason, deleted) scene in TLJ where Rey bolts to go defend the Caretakers, Luke tells her at the end of the scene that her fighting-spirit approach will better serve the cause than a failed old Jedi religion that is overly obsessed with "balance."

Here's the scene (the pivotal part being what Luke says at the end):



If anything, my interpretation of this scene (and I could be grossly wrong) is that Luke is telling Rey to do the opposite of being passive - and certainly the opposite of being pacifistic. And his point resonates with me in this way: if "balance" is a goal for the Jedi, then they'll always be allowing darkness to rise in order to balance the light. I see it as almost becoming perpetual victims of their own restraint and deference to fate. Rey's approach, in contrast, is to just go help those in peril (destroying their attackers if necessary). He explicitly tells Rey that her approach is what the Resistance needs.

But, after his talk with Yoda, Luke seems to merge his different beliefs (both his long-held attachment to Jedi philosophy, and his newer partial rejection of it). He re-embraces the basic value of Jedi wisdom, but trusts Rey to take it to the next (and hopefully more effective) level with more freedom to do things a new way (learning from past failures). As Yoda said, "Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”
 
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