Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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Luke reflexively coming inches away from murdering his nephew in his sleep for having bad thoughts is psychotic. Point blank, period. Almost killing Darth Vader, his father, during a sword fight is entirely rational and does not make one evil, even if he had finished him off. A good man did something bad. That's it. Not in the same ballpark as the former. Like Anakin killing Dooku and Anakin killing younglings.
 
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I'll take it one further for you, I have ALWAYS believed Luke started down the path to the dark side... and to quote Yoda...

"once you start down the path to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny...consume you it will.....as it did Obi Wans apprentice."

tenor.gif


It is at this moment it happens.....

The Emporer
" take your Jedi weapon....I am defenseless...strike me down and your JOURNEY TOWARD the dark side is complete".

Luke DOES try to kill the Emperor. Like it or not, he does.

Yoda clearly says Jedi never use the force for attack. Luke FAILED at his lessons here, and he started down the dark path.....

.

Is this the same Yoda who sent Obi-Wan to kill Anakin? Not try to turn Anakin but kill him. Destroy the Sith we must he said. Also he went to Palpatine to kill him and knocked out his guards. I don’t see how Luke attempting to strike down the Emperor takes him down the dark path. Yoda and Mace both tried it. Heck...Obi-Wan wanted him to kill Vader...when Luke said he wouldn’t....Obi-wan said then the Emperor has already won.

Becoming angry or being fearful is not steps down the dark side...giving into those feelings and doing things that are evil are. Like Anakin killing a whole village of Sand People. That was a big step down the path. Anakin living a double life with Padme...turning on Mace just to save one person his wife. All the decisions led to him becoming Vader.

The only thing that really made Luke struggle is finding out Yoda and Obi-Wan hid the truth from him about his father. Other than that he really never took steps down the dark path. The pull of his father was the struggle he had to overcome.

Had Luke killed the Emperor he would not had took steps down the dark side. If he turned around and said I’m the new emperor...yeah that would of been a problem.


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:lol :lol

Reminds me of all the lines that I misheard as a kid.

"Luck as falls, in attack positions!"

"Cut the shadow, Red Two!"

"We've got to get some kind of a reading on that shield, Han port down!"

"Your friends, out there on the shaynkes surry (???) moon, are walking into a trap..."

etc., lol.


That's pretty funny. I did a lot of that back in the day, but I can't remember now what they were. Same with songs. Lots of singing incorrect lyrics for many years.
 
We are in agreement when it comes to Luke's sacrifice in TLJ mirroring that of Kenobi's in ANH. That's one of the aspects I love about it. And I agree with you that some fans' perception of Kenobi's sacrifice as heroic, while simultaneously ridiculing Luke's as him being a "loser," can be considered incongruous.

I also agree that Luke had perceived a potential flaw in the Jedi way, in recognizing that the rise of the Sith had been too closely connected with the Jedi in an almost repetitive and futile way.

Where we disagree is in what Luke ultimately believes is the best way forward. From my point of view, Luke has passed the torch to Rey by the end of TLJ. In the pivotal (and for some damn reason, deleted) scene in TLJ where Rey bolts to go defend the Caretakers, Luke tells her at the end of the scene that her fighting-spirit approach will better serve the cause than a failed old Jedi religion that is overly obsessed with "balance."

Here's the scene (the pivotal part being what Luke says at the end):



If anything, my interpretation of this scene (and I could be grossly wrong) is that Luke is telling Rey to do the opposite of being passive - and certainly the opposite of being pacifistic. And his point resonates with me in this way: if "balance" is a goal for the Jedi, then they'll always be allowing darkness to rise in order to balance the light. I see it as almost becoming perpetual victims of their own restraint and deference to fate. Rey's approach, in contrast, is to just go help those in peril (destroying their attackers if necessary). He explicitly tells Rey that her approach is what the Resistance needs.

But, after his talk with Yoda, Luke seems to merge his different beliefs (both his long-held attachment to Jedi philosophy, and his newer partial rejection of it). He re-embraces the basic value of Jedi wisdom, but trusts Rey to take it to the next (and hopefully more effective) level with more freedom to do things a new way (learning from past failures). As Yoda said, "Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”


Nice post....I agree with the last part entirely... I think a main point of TLJ was to set up what the force users could be doing besides lazar swords and mind tricks...
We shall see......

Yoda: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength. Mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Is this the same Yoda who sent Obi-Wan to kill Anakin? Not try to turn Anakin but kill him. Destroy the Sith we must he said. Also he went to Palpatine to kill him and knocked out his guards. I don’t see how Luke attempting to strike down the Emperor takes him down the dark path. Yoda and Mace both tried it. Heck...Obi-Wan wanted him to kill Vader...when Luke said he wouldn’t....Obi-wan said then the Emperor has already won.

Becoming angry or being fearful is not steps down the dark side...giving into those feelings and doing things that are evil are. Like Anakin killing a whole village of Sand People. That was a big step down the path. Anakin living a double life with Padme...turning on Mace just to save one person his wife. All the decisions led to him becoming Vader.

The only thing that really made Luke struggle is finding out Yoda and Obi-Wan hid the truth from him about his father. Other than that he really never took steps down the dark path. The pull of his father was the struggle he had to overcome.

Had Luke killed the Emperor he would not had took steps down the dark side. If he turned around and said I’m the new emperor...yeah that would of been a problem.


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I see what your saying , and its the common belief of the OT.

But if you look a little deeper, what did any of those heroic deeds from PT do for the Jedi?

Mace attacks and wants to kill Palpatine.... “he cannot be allowed to live” This moment was the trigger for Anakins fall to the dark side..
FAILURE

Yoda attacks Palps, his fight accomplishes nothing, and Yoda goes into self imposed exile for his failure....I think he was realizing at that point how much of a failure the Jedi had been to let the Sith grow right under their noses (being too busy fighting over trade routes)
FAILURE

That same Yoda also sent another Jedi to get Anakin and take him down....
The very presence of Obi sends Anakin into a rage , which his kills his wife (basically). And Obi beating Anakin so badly he turns into “more machine than man, twisted and evil”
FAILURE

So yea, in the PT it is Yoda and the Jedi Temple suffering from hubris, which undoes them from within.
Yoda realizes this too late and exiles himself, taking himself out of the equation, kinda like another character in ST...



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
I see what your saying , and its the common belief of the OT.

But if you look a little deeper, what did any of those heroic deeds from PT do for the Jedi?

Mace attacks and wants to kill Palpatine.... “he cannot be allowed to live” This moment was the trigger for Anakins fall to the dark side..
FAILURE

Yoda attacks Palps, his fight accomplishes nothing, and Yoda goes into self imposed exile for his failure....I think he was realizing at that point how much of a failure the Jedi had been to let the Sith grow right under their noses (being too busy fighting over trade routes)
FAILURE

That same Yoda also sent another Jedi to get Anakin and take him down....
The very presence of Obi sends Anakin into a rage , which his kills his wife (basically). And Obi beating Anakin so badly he turns into “more machine than man, twisted and evil”
FAILURE

So yea, in the PT it is Yoda and the Jedi Temple suffering from hubris, which undoes them from within.
Yoda realizes this too late and exiles himself, taking himself out of the equation, kinda like another character in ST...



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

I think all of those failures highlight how big Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side shifted the tide...had he not started down the path none of those things would of been possible. I agree the Jedi hubris caused them to become blind and get pulled into a war. Worse they failed to mentor one of the most powerful force users they had ever seen...one they considered a chosen one. They used him as a pawn to spy on Palpatine which just made him doubt the Jedi even more and gave Palpatine more influence over him.


I may be wrong but when Anakin turned it seemed the Emperor was drawing strength from the imbalance in the force. He was acting like he was drunk off power when giving him his name and he mentioned to Yoda that he would witness the full power of the dark side. I think this allowed him to beat Yoda.

I don’t think the Jedi failure was trying to snuff out evil and being aggressive. But by the time they figured out was going on it was too late....they failed to mentor Anakin properly and his turn shifted everything. I have failed you Anakin...I have failed you.

Anyway just my take. Fun conversation. I wish Luke had a bigger role in TLJ. If all the Rose and Fin stuff could of been trimmed down and he actually had more training scenes and we could of seen Rey’s optimism and hope change him and he would of left island to get into the fight...that would of been cool. That sorta happened but sucks seeing your childhood hero have a heart attack on a rock away from the battle.


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Yoda attacks Palps, his fight accomplishes nothing, and Yoda goes into self imposed exile for his failure....I think he was realizing at that point how much of a failure the Jedi had been to let the Sith grow right under their noses (being too busy fighting over trade routes)
FAILURE

Which reminds me of a thought I had after watching TFA, which was worse: Yoda, one of the most powerful Force users in existence and greatest Jedi warriors of the time going into self exile resulting to the deaths of hundreds (if not thousands) of Jedi in the purge and plunging the galaxy into the Empire's rule or Luke, one of the most powerful Force users in existence and greatest Jedi warrior of the time going into self exile resulting to the deaths of hundreds (if not thousands) of Resistance fighters, plunging the galaxy into the edge of First Order rule....

:D
 
Yoda: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength. Mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.

This felt so out of place. Like from a totally different movie were Luke and Rey actually had a master and apprentice relationship. :lol
 
Luke reflexively coming inches away from murdering his nephew in his sleep for having bad thoughts is psychotic. Point blank, period.

It's not totally inconceivable. What Luke saw in Kylo's dreams was obviously so horrific he felt he needed to save the universe from him, and save Kylo from what he would become.
 
It's not totally inconceivable. What Luke saw in Kylo's dreams was obviously so horrific he felt he needed to save the universe from him, and save Kylo from what he would become.

Agree. Especially if he saw Kylo would be a part of destroying multiple planets and he may be able to prevent it all with one strike...I could easily see him being tempted.


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It's not totally inconceivable. What Luke saw in Kylo's dreams was obviously so horrific he felt he needed to save the universe from him, and save Kylo from what he would become.

The guy who was willing to die to redeem mass murderer Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith. He didn't even think about it first. His first reaction was to murder his sister's son. RJ's compulsion to subvert expectations is what that was.
 
Which reminds me of a thought I had after watching TFA, which was worse: Yoda, one of the most powerful Force users in existence and greatest Jedi warriors of the time going into self exile resulting to the deaths of hundreds (if not thousands) of Jedi in the purge and plunging the galaxy into the Empire's rule or Luke, one of the most powerful Force users in existence and greatest Jedi warrior of the time going into self exile resulting to the deaths of hundreds (if not thousands) of Resistance fighters, plunging the galaxy into the edge of First Order rule....

[emoji3]

Obviously Yoda didn’t pass on what he learned on failure like he said.

Yoda intended to return when time was right as he felt they had already lost everything and didn’t have a chance. Basically the government was overthrown. He had hope there would be a future with Skywalker children.

Luke wanted to not get involved and let the Jedi religion die as he saw them being the cause of all the issues in the galaxy. He never even attempted to face Snoke. He never intended to get back in the fight.So I would say his actions were worse.

You just highlighted how similar everything is between OT and ST. This is because JJ and RJ decided to rehash the previous films vice making a unique trilogy of their own. One more film and it will be over. Maybe Disney can come up with something original next time.

The worst failure in Star Wars is Disney letting directors write fricking scripts one movie at a time in a trilogy. They had no road map as to where the story was going unless you call ripping off OT the road map.




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Winging the script writing ina trilogy might be the worst thing Disney has done. I can only imaging they somehow thought it would invigorate the writers and give them time to come up with different story lines based on audience reaction?

They failed at that....might have been a money thing also.

As far as Anakin and Palpatine. I always felt the throne scene and the Mace Windu scene clearly shows there is some sort of parasitic bond between Sith.

Palpatine seems the gain “unlimited power” the second Anakin turns....like a level up. Conversely In ROTJ, I always felt Vader didn’t just die because of the force lightning hitting him for a few seconds, I felt the bond between he and Palpatine was broken, and his anger, hate and fear finally let go. And that was the one thing keeping him alive.

The Emporer clearly felt Anakin dying on Mustafar after Obi got “the high ground” (LOL). And he rushed to save him....WHY? Cause they are best buddies? Nope....its because Sith feed off their apprentices. I also think this is why they choose stronger apprentices. Its adds to their power. Unfortunate , the stronger the apprentices, the more likely they could turn on you and succeed.






Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
What was it about ROTJ that you guys are seeing that would have led to Luke planning to casually murder his nephew and then running away to hide from his responsibilities for ever after?

Well it sounds like you didn't understand what Luke was doing in TLJ either so there wouldn't be any point for me to try and link the character in your mind to what he did in ROTJ.


That's a lovely deflection. But I'm genuinely interested ion the answer. If it makes you feel better, you can increase the size of the font and use very simple words for me. Maybe I'll be able to keep up with your superior intellect that way.

I'll also add a question. After the original trilogy and before the Disney acquisition etc. Did you honestly imagine Luke Skywalker going this route in terms of being such a pessimist and so willing to give up on (and even murder) his own relative? Or is your current view simply a necessary one that you're using to convince yourself that aspects of TLJ weren't awful?
 
That's a lovely deflection. But I'm genuinely interested ion the answer. If it makes you feel better, you can increase the size of the font and use very simple words for me. Maybe I'll be able to keep up with your superior intellect that way.

I'll also add a question. After the original trilogy and before the Disney acquisition etc. Did you honestly imagine Luke Skywalker going this route in terms of being such a pessimist and so willing to give up on (and even murder) his own relative? Or is your current view simply a necessary one that you're using to convince yourself that aspects of TLJ weren't awful?

I did....

And so did many others. There is an actual comic based off it.

And he didn’t murder anyone. He had a moment of weakness. He exiled himself because he thought that was the best way to help his friends. By not making things worse...

Why bother explaining thou? You don’t like it , others do...


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Obviously Yoda didn’t pass on what he learned on failure like he said.

Yoda intended to return when time was right as he felt they had already lost everything and didn’t have a chance. Basically the government was overthrown. He had hope there would be a future with Skywalker children.

Luke wanted to not get involved and let the Jedi religion die as he saw them being the cause of all the issues in the galaxy. He never even attempted to face Snoke. He never intended to get back in the fight.So I would say his actions were worse.

You just highlighted how similar everything is between OT and ST. This is because JJ and RJ decided to rehash the previous films vice making a unique trilogy of their own. One more film and it will be over. Maybe Disney can come up with something original next time.

The worst failure in Star Wars is Disney letting directors write fricking scripts one movie at a time in a trilogy. They had no road map as to where the story was going unless you call ripping off OT the road map.




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Yes but Yoda's failure to return also resulted to many more deaths, some of which were his own students (Jedi purge). One could say that Yoda may have been able to save a lot of the Jedi so I would say that Yoda was just as bad if not worse.

You are right, there are a lot of parallels to the OT. A lot of the problems with TLJ were IMO created by TFA.
 
Yes but Yoda's failure to return also resulted to many more deaths, some of which were his own students (Jedi purge). One could say that Yoda may have been able to save a lot of the Jedi so I would say that Yoda was just as bad if not worse.

You are right, there are a lot of parallels to the OT. A lot of the problems with TLJ were IMO created by TFA.
Are you seriously stating that Yoda's failure to return on time makes him morally responsible for those deaths that occurred in his absence?
 
Are you seriously stating that Yoda's failure to return on time makes him morally responsible for those deaths that occurred in his absence?

Yes. If one is to criticize Luke's exile, then it's hard to justify not looking at Yoda in the same lens. They are both one of the most powerful Force users of their eras. They both went into exile where one can argue that they could have helped the resistance more directly. Yoda had an even greater responsibility IMO because as a teacher/master he may have been able to do more to save the rest of the Jedi, and he is also in part the reason why the Jedi failed and the Empire rose to power.
 
Yes. If one is to criticize Luke's exile, then it's hard to justify not looking at Yoda in the same lens. They are both one of the most powerful Force users of their eras. They both went into exile where one can argue that they could have helped the resistance more directly. Yoda had an even greater responsibility IMO because as a teacher/master he may have been able to do more to save the rest of the Jedi, and he is also in part the reason why the Jedi failed and the Empire rose to power.

The difference is, Luke willingly went into exile before the world went to crap, and in Yoda's case the Jedi were already dead. He was just saving himself and couldn't have done any more good.
 
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