Terminator Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

[DiFabio]

Don't forget this. If this isn't horror or inspired by a slasher film, I don't know what is.






I think it's wrong to just call The Terminator a "horror" genre or write T2 off as "sci-if/action". There's more going on there than just cheap kills or explosions. I think one of the reasons both are held in such high regard is because there is a sincerity and humanity to them. The Terminator isn't just about Arnold killing people, just like T2 isn't just about chases and explosions. There are meaningful themes in them.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

This is actually what destroyed that whole final battle for me. The T-800 had numerous opportunities to instantly kill John Connor - a real machine would have taken the first chance it got to deliver a killer blow like Terminators do to anyone who isn't their primary target. I think they expected us to excuse a little too much in this sequence. They should have written the scene differently so that John was always out of reach.

I feel T2 made the same mistake, just not during the climax of the film. It did the same thing during the bar scene, when the T 800 was physically assaulted and he didn't kill anyone, then he walks out with the "bad to the bone" song and steals the guy's glasses for comedic reasons...I guess. Cool scene, but a real Terminator would have killed everyone in that bar. Subsequent scenes where John "teaches" or reminds uncle bob not to kill don't really work as well as the could have because we already knew he wasn't a killer, but had he killed those bikers, the "I swear I won't kill anyone" and "trust me" scenes would make more sense, imo.

 

[a-dev]

Don't forget this. If this isn't horror or inspired by a slasher film, I don't know what is.


>>images of people stabbed through the face removed<<



I think it's wrong to just call The Terminator a "horror" genre or write T2 off as "sci-if/action". There's more going on there than just cheap kills or explosions. I think one of the reasons both are held in such high regard is because there is a sincerity and humanity to them. The Terminator isn't just about Arnold killing people, just like T2 isn't just about chases and explosions. There are meaningful themes in them.

Stuff like that along with the nuclear nightmare scene, the F-bombs and that pervert licking Sarah Connor's face are things people like to forget when dismissing T2 as a 'family film'. Don't bring them up again Difabio!

I feel T2 made the same mistake, just not during the climax of the film. It did the same thing during the bar scene, when the T 800 was physically assaulted and he didn't kill anyone, then he walks out with the "bad to the bone" song and steals the guy's glasses for comedic reasons...I guess. Cool scene, but a real Terminator would have killed everyone in that bar. Subsequent scenes where John "teaches" or reminds uncle bob not to kill don't really work because we already knew he wasn't a killer, but had he killed those bikers, the "I swear I won't kill anyone" and "trust me" scenes would make more sense, imo.

Not quite the same thing though. In T4 you've got a Terminator who literally has his primary target by the throat and he fails to kill him. The people in the bar in T2 were just randomers, killing them wasn't a mission priority and he would have regarded their threat level as minimal. Realistically no Terminator in the present day should kill random people anyway because it would draw unwanted attention that could stop it fulfilling its primary objective. Of course, the films pay no heed to this.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Stuff like that along with the nuclear nightmare scene, the F-bombs and that pervert licking Sarah Connor's face are things people like to forget when dismissing T2 as a 'family film'. Don't bring them up again Difabio!


Realistically no Terminator in the present day should kill random people anyway because it would draw unwanted attention that could stop it fulfilling its primary objective. Of course, the films pay no heed to this.

 

[DiFabio]

Not to mention that that in T1, it's early in the morning at the Observatory with three lone punks that pull a knife out on him. Notice, he doesn't kill them right away either. What does he do? He throws them to the side. It isn't until the blond punk stab him does he decide to get brutal and smash his fist through his chest.

T2, you have dozens of people in the bar. The cigar thing is harmless. He breaks the guys hand, he's not going to smash his fist and kill the guy, possibly damaging his future clothes. He throws him into the kitchen, just like he does with the two punks in the first one. Then he gets hit with a pool cue, and throws that guy out through the glass, just like he did to the Paxton Punk in the first one. THEN he gets stabbed and he pulls the knife and slams it into the guy, THROUGH HIM and pinning him to the pool table. For all we know, the guy's lung is ****ed, just like people like to assume the Paxton thug died from a less brutal throw.

What to people that criticize that scene want? For him to kill all the biker guys, then kill the waitresses and employees? What? It's not like throwing someone on a stove top, giving them severe burns, throwing a guy through glass, and stabbing a guy in the back isn't brutal. I mean come on. Besides, we all know why Cameron didn't have him kill anyone prior to meeting John. It would be hard for the audience to view this thing as a protector or protagonist. It's just like Reese not killing any of the officers that threatened him. In the context of the story, the T-800 is one of the heroes.


Also, I don't want to be a hypocrite here, but is "bad to the bone" playing as it pans up from Arnold's boots to the low angle of his face (a call back to when we first see the T-800 in his punk outfit before he hijacks the station wagon in the first one) really as bad or even close to being similar to the "Bad Boys" line up or "Dat funky man" in T3? Maybe it is nostalgia, but I never cringed at Bad to the bone, probably because the T-800 isn't doing anything stupid in it like grinning like a robotic idiot or saying "talk to the hand". It's purely a character moment. Sure, it probably hurt people that weren't in the know that he was hero and not the villain, but on multiple viewings? That's a great cinematic, well shot, scene.

 

[a-dev]

You've just quoted one line I actually don't like in T2. John didn't even ask him a question there, he just made a statement - ''jesus you were gonna kill that guy!!'' - the T-800 responds as though it were a question. And I think a silent ''confusion'' would have been better there.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

You've just quoted one line I actually don't like in T2. John didn't even ask him a question there, he just made a statement - ''jesus you were gonna kill that guy!!'' - the T-800 responds as though it were a question. And I think a silent ''confusion'' would have been better there.

Yeah, not to mention he admits he was going to kill to unharmed guys that weren't really a threat to him or John, because he's "a terminator", yet he didn't do that when he was stabbed.

 

[a-dev]

Yeah, not to mention he admits he was going to kill two unarmed guys that weren't really a threat to him or John, because he's "a terminator", yet he didn't do that when he was stabbed.

Hmmm...well, 2 possible factors here - perhaps he interpreted that John Connor wanted him to kill the guy. Also, he didn't yet have a gun in the bar scene. He had one here.

We know even from the first film that T-800s prefer to use guns when killing even though they have the ability to be lethal with their fists or feet. The T1 T-800 missed a prime opportunity to kill Sarah Connor in Tech Noir when she was trapped under a dead body - he could have stamped on her head, but instead wasted vital time reloading the uzi.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I think it's wrong to just call The Terminator a "horror" genre or write T2 off as "sci-if/action". There's more going on there than just cheap kills or explosions. I think one of the reasons both are held in such high regard is because there is a sincerity and humanity to them. The Terminator isn't just about Arnold killing people, just like T2 isn't just about chases and explosions. There are meaningful themes in them.

The overarching feel of T2 is very 'action' oriented... whereas Terminator was more about a monster coming for you (like Alien or Predator); and the gore in T1 put it in a different category for me. When I want to watch an good action movie, I never think to pop Terminator in... but I would think to watch T2.

In terms of meaning themes, are you saying that horror movies don't have meaning themes? They generally do much more than action films.

 

[JAWS]

Hey! Sort of like the people that think that T1 is the perfect horror/B movie or that JAWS is the perfect blockbuster!

It is and it is

What I really can't stand are those who stand by the 89 Batman fiasco

In the case of Aliens and Terminator 2: Judgment Day, I think it's unnecessary and childish to be purists for the first film. All four of them are good and respected, no reason to diss them just because fans revere the sequels with great enthusiasm.

I love Aliens... And While I like the first film more I think Aliens is one of the greatest sequels ever made. I joke a bit about T2.. But I really don't see the film that the fans do. That's all cool. But it's still fun for me to stick in the knife and turn it Having said that I find Aliens to be an almost perfect sequel. It took what the first film did and made a completely different style of film... From Horror / Sci Fi to Action / War / Horror / Sci Fi. Other then the same way of disposing of the Alien at the end of both films it was very original. T2 just took too many beats from the first film and did not do them as well IMO... Add to that the awful acting by Edward the corny over acting at times by Linda Hamilton, and the lack of intensity that was in the first film and you have a movie deserving of some criticism.

HOWEVER... I still enjoy it.. It looks beautiful. Arnold and Robert are great in it and I do like some of the action scenes even though they are often just repeats of the first film. It is the best of the sequels and had an overall feeling of dread.

I would say I enjoy it more today then I did back when it was first released.

Stuff like that along with the nuclear nightmare scene, the F-bombs and that pervert licking Sarah Connor's face are things people like to forget when dismissing T2 as a 'family film'. Don't bring them up again Difabio!

Pervert is in the uncut version... which is all cool but the original cut feels more family friendly. It's just the overall feel. I am not saying I would show it to a kid 9 or younger but 10 and up... Why not?

I will say It does have that feeling of impending doom though... Even with the destruction of Skynet. It feels like a terminator film.... Something TG was really lacking.

Not quite the same thing though. In T4 you've got a Terminator who literally has his primary target by the throat and he fails to kill him. The people in the bar in T2 were just randomers, killing them wasn't a mission priority and he would have regarded their threat level as minimal. Realistically no Terminator in the present day should kill random people anyway because it would draw unwanted attention that could stop it fulfilling its primary objective. Of course, the films pay no heed to this

T-1000 should have never pretended to be an injured Sarah Connor trying to get John to come to him... He should have ran right over to him and killed him in his Sarah disguise But then we would never have T3.... Oh wait... Damn you T-1000!!!!

 

[DiFabio]

The T-1000 couldn't run though. It's made clear that the nitrogen and reforming ****ed him up.


Just like the T-800 couldn't run after Sarah and Reese because it's heel was damaged. If we want to bring up silly things, how come Sarah and Reese break into a locked building where they can be cornered and killed, instead of Sarah just outrunning the robotic ****er up the hill they came down? She wasn't injured, she could have out run it until the cops found them instead of going through all the trouble of going in the computer factory.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Hmmm...well, 2 possible factors here - perhaps he interpreted that John Connor wanted him to kill the guy. Also, he didn't yet have a gun in the bar scene. He had one here.

We know even from the first film that T-800s prefer to use guns when killing even though they have the ability to be lethal with their fists or feet. The T1 T-800 missed a prime opportunity to kill Sarah Connor in Tech Noir when she was trapped under a dead body - he could have stamped on her head, but instead wasted vital time reloading the uzi.

Well, maybe he thought John wanted them dead, but I'm not so sure about that because he seems to take things literally, like when he was holding John, and John shouts, "Let me go!", and he does, causing John to fall on the ground. When John asked why he did it , his response was, "Because you told me to." So when John tells him to grab the guy, that's what he did, literally, he grabbed him by the hair, so when the other dude touched him, he went for the kill, without any orders from John. Maybe he prefers to kill with guns, instead of using his fists or a knife, but can a machine have a preference?

 

[a-dev]

It is and it is

What I really can't stand are those who stand by the 89 Batman fiasco



I love Aliens... And While I like the first film more I think Aliens is one of the greatest sequels ever made. I joke a bit about T2.. But I really don't see the film that the fans do. That's all cool. But it's still fun for me to stick in the knife and turn it

Well, I guess that makes me and Difabio to T2 what say, Gaspar and Clown Prince have been to Man of Steel. The perpetual defenders. Whether the tone of the criticism is serious or joking, we're there to say our piece anyway because lurkers might be reading the criticisms/playful slaggings and agreeing and we cannot have that be so!

 

[JAWS]

Don't forget this. If this isn't horror or inspired by a slasher film, I don't know what is.


View attachment 197379


I think it's wrong to just call The Terminator a "horror" genre or write T2 off as "sci-if/action". There's more going on there than just cheap kills or explosions. I think one of the reasons both are held in such high regard is because there is a sincerity and humanity to them. The Terminator isn't just about Arnold killing people, just like T2 isn't just about chases and explosions. There are meaningful themes in them.

Great scenes... But nothing like seeing Terminators Hand covered and dripping with blood after the Punk kill. T2 feels like an action film.. But that is fine... It's the one thing that separates it from the original... If it did not try and use so many of the same beats as the first I think I would enjoy it so much more.

Not to mention that that in T1, it's early in the morning at the Observatory with three lone punks that pull a knife out on him. Notice, he doesn't kill them right away either. What does he do? He throws them to the side. It isn't until the blond punk stab him does he decide to get brutal and smash his fist through his chest.

T2, you have dozens of people in the bar. The cigar thing is harmless. He breaks the guys hand, he's not going to smash his fist and kill the guy, possibly damaging his future clothes. He throws him into the kitchen, just like he does with the two punks in the first one. Then he gets hit with a pool cue, and throws that guy out through the glass, just like he did to the Paxton Punk in the first one. THEN he gets stabbed and he pulls the knife and slams it into the guy, THROUGH HIM and pinning him to the pool table. For all we know, the guy's lung is ****ed, just like people like to assume the Paxton thug died from a less brutal throw.

What to people that criticize that scene want? For him to kill all the biker guys, then kill the waitresses and employees? What? It's not like throwing someone on a stove top, giving them severe burns, throwing a guy through glass, and stabbing a guy in the back isn't brutal. I mean come on. Besides, we all know why Cameron didn't have him kill anyone prior to meeting John. It would be hard for the audience to view this thing as a protector or protagonist. It's just like Reese not killing any of the officers that threatened him. In the context of the story, the T-800 is one of the heroes.


Also, I don't want to be a hypocrite here, but is "bad to the bone" playing as it pans up from Arnold's boots to the low angle of his face (a call back to when we first see the T-800 in his punk outfit before he hijacks the station wagon in the first one) really as bad or even close to being similar to the "Bad Boys" line up or "Dat funky man" in T3? Maybe it is nostalgia, but I never cringed at Bad to the bone, probably because the T-800 isn't doing anything stupid in it like grinning like a robotic idiot or saying "talk to the hand". It's purely a character moment. Sure, it probably hurt people that weren't in the know that he was hero and not the villain, but on multiple viewings? That's a great cinematic, well shot, scene.

I never had an issue with the Terminator not killing anyone in the bar.. However I HATE Bad to the Bone in just about every film it's been used in.. The only time I liked it was in John Carpenter's Christine.


PS - I like the Talk to the hand joke

 

[JAWS]

Well, I guess that makes me and Difabio to T2 what say, Gaspar and Clown Prince have been to Man of Steel. The perpetual defenders. Whether the tone of the criticism is serious or joking, we're there to say our piece anyway because lurkers might be reading the criticisms/playful slaggings and agreeing and we cannot have that be so!

Let me stress... I love having these discussions... T2 is just one of those films I love debating about... I think it's because I still do like it and I respect you and Difaio. It's all in good fun even though I have issues with the film. My best friend and I still argue about which was the better Vampire movie Near Dark or Lost Boys... It's just in good fun (Near Dark by the way is better )

Films I really don't care for... MOS for example, I might say my piece about... But I don't trash on it because it's not worth my time because I care so little for the film. Another example of a film I like to give a hard time to is Batman 89 Another film were there are things about it I like but I feel that overall it's a mess of a movie and I don't get the blind love that it gets. But because there are things I do like I will enjoy talking about it and hearing what the fans like to say.


Reading your defenses of T2 is fun for me because I don't disagree 100% even though I have issues.. I still like the film and it's fun to read the passions of fans about a film I don't love but do like.

 

[abake]

Uhm... quick question: what is the after credits scene?
I just walked out as soon as the credits started...

Not that I didn't enjoy the movie, I thought it was fun. Better than T3 at any rate, but that's not saying much...

Just one thing: why are they so sure Skynet is defeated this time? It already managed to fool them a few times by sending terminators to different points in the past, why should this time be different...
Besides, if we're talking multiple universes, surely Skynet wins in a few of those universes? Doesn't really matter, though, it just matters that it doesn't win in the one you're living right now I guess.

One thing that I didn't like though, was that Skynet did sound and act too human. There was none of the cold rationality of a machine when Skynet spoke to Sarah and Kyle. It sounded a bit petty. Of course, I suppose one could argue that true AI would have to have some of the inherent "flaws" or defining characteristics of humanity, like emotion, before becoming truly sentient.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

My best friend and I still argue about which was the better Vampire movie Near Dark or Lost Boys... It's just in good fun (Near Dark by the way is better )
.

What?!! Which film has Jack Bauer looking super cool and not one but TWO Coreys? That's right.

 

[JAWS]

What?!! Which film has Jack Bauer looking super cool and not one but TWO Coreys? That's right.

Give me a Bad Ass Bill Paxton any day over Mullet head Bauer!

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Give me a Bad Ass Bill Paxton any day over Mullet head Bauer!

 

[JAWS]