Terminator Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Actually I've just thought of why John wouldn't do this. But I aint tellin'. I'll see if you get it. Maybe its obvious.

cuz by telling them the exact circumstances and having them be in "the know", could ultimately cause a new set of circumstances out of John Connor's control. Then that time line would change, then that time line would change, etc. etc.


?



Anyway you look at it, it's completely ****ed. That's why any argument against how T2 plays out is useless to me.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah, it could backfire and potentially kill both Reese and Sarah for all John would know. He has to let what he knows happened happen. At least that way he knows the outcome and can take comfort in the fact that his younger self will eventually get to meet his dad anyway.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Okay, so you're playing the "since it's never stated in the film . . . it didn't happen" card.

Nope. I'm playing the "if it isn't stated in the film AND it doesn't fit...then it didn't happen" card. So you might want to try again.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah, it could backfire and potentially kill both Reese and Sarah for all John would know. He has to let what he knows happened happen.

Well the fact is that as of T1 we don't know *what* Sarah told John. How specific she was about 1984 that is. Maybe due to the trauma she had a hard time talking about it other than in broad strokes. So we don't know what John knew about 1984 but we know he knew everything about 1994. And if "the future is not set" then I don't think he'd just let "fate" run its course. Remember, there IS no fate and all that.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah, it could backfire and potentially kill both Reese and Sarah for all John would know. He has to let what he knows happened happen. At least that way he knows the outcome and can take comfort in the fact that his younger self will eventually get to meet his dad anyway.

So T2 is completely valid. We win.


Here's how I see it. The Terminator film/story we got with the first film is actually the second or third timeline of events. That's the only way it could work. Originally, there couldn't have been a Kyle Reese fathering John Connor, that's impossible considering Kyle was born after John and during the war. So the war somehow started, it was all John vs. Skynet. John and the resistance defeat Skynet but they somehow find out that Skynet rigged the game by sending it's latest Terminator back. So at the last minute, John asks for a volunteer or something (basically anyone, I don't see why he couldn't send himself back though). Kyle Reese volunteers out of some admiration that he has for the "legend" that is Sarah Connor. John is like, "eh, whatever, go and protect her" and he does.

Little does that John know that Kyle Reese just ****ed him over (literally). Kyle Reese bangs Sarah and messes up the future . . . and dies. Now this new John Connor (John 2.0) has Kyle for a daddy instead. That skews everything. Now Sarah is going to tell John that Reese is his daddy-o. In doing so, the new Future John is going to have that knowledge when he sends Reese back. Reese just isn't a volunteer anymore, he HAS to go. Skynet is accidentally doing the same **** now too though. Originally, it was just naturally invented. Some dude thought it up on his own, BAM, Skynet was born. Now that it sends a Terminator back though, it expedites/accelerates it's own existence. Instead of simply being invented, that arm and chip speed up the process and make it even more advanced than it originally was. That's maybe why we see Endo infantry for the first time in T2 or something as significantly advanced as the T-1000. The T-800 is the template for Skynet's origin now, Kyle Reese is John's father. This screws up EVERYTHING. Then we get the first Terminator that we see and it plays out like it does above. John has evolved, Skynet has evolved. That process plays out and now, instead of John just sending Reese on a whim or Skynet sending a Terminator on a whim, they now HAVE to do it to "exist" in that way.

So if the game can change there (John having a different, present dad/Skynet being created the way it was naturally without the arm and the chip), why can't T2 happen the way it does? It's just an extension of all the changes that were made in the different timelines. T-1000 exists because Skynet was more advanced than the original Skynet. John Connor is more advanced because he knows all about the war, military, technology and the Resistance. It's perfectly valid.



T3 and Salvation can't though? Why? Because it ****s up everything with inconsistency. In T2, Skynet is done. They ****ing destroy everything and Dyson is dead. There's no way some other division can salvage anything considering the whole building was blown sky high (not to mention the proto processor, chip, arm and everything back at Dyson's home). Sarah couldn't even be sick and dying considering she's PERFECTLY healthy during T2. Even if we chalk it up as "Skynet and Judgment Day is inevitable", there's still the major inconsistency that the John we're following in T3 was changed from 10 to 13 . Since that's the case, it can't possibly be in the same realm of T1 or T2 (and if it does, the audience is missing out on several revisions of the timeline). Either way, there's no continuous loop. The T1 we see is radically different from the one that originally "happened".

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Well the fact is that as of T1 we don't know *what* Sarah told John. How specific she was about 1984 that is. Maybe due to the trauma she had a hard time talking about it other than in broad strokes. So we don't know what John knew about 1984 but we know he knew everything about 1994. And if "the future is not set" then I don't think he'd just let "fate" run its course. Remember, there IS no fate and all that.

And yet he lets the 1984 events take place exactly as his mum would have experienced them, doing nothing more than sending Reese back and not telling him much of anything but that line to give to Sarah - he seemed to accept that as being 'set'. The line ends up pretty useless in T1 since Cameron removed the scene where Sarah wants to find and destroy Cyberdyne as inspired by the 'there is no fate but what we make for ourselves' bit. Are we gonna hold that against T1? We could. The line actually means something in T2.

I honestly don't know where this is going and why it means T2 can't happen. As I've said, the whole thing is ****ed.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Damn this battle is good.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

And yet he lets the 1984 events take place exactly as his mum would have experienced them, doing nothing more than sending Reese back and not telling him much of anything but that line to give to Sarah - he seemed to accept that as being 'set'. The line ends up pretty useless in T1 since Cameron removed the scene where Sarah wants to find and destroy Cyberdyne as inspired by the 'there is no fate but what we make for ourselves' bit. Are we gonna hold that against T1? We could. The line actually means something in T2.

I honestly don't know where this is going and why it means T2 can't happen. As I've said, the whole thing is ****ed.

If it's going to be done to T2, then we should.

Unless the powers that be just concede and lump T1 and T2 as one and take a dump on all the others like they're supposed to.

Damn this battle is good.

A nerdy battle that goes no where.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Here's how I see it. The Terminator film/story we got with the first film is actually the second or third timeline of events. That's the only way it could work. Originally, there couldn't have been a Kyle Reese fathering John Connor, that's impossible considering Kyle was born after John and during the war. So the war somehow started, it was all John vs. Skynet. John and the resistance defeat Skynet but they somehow find out that Skynet rigged the game by sending it's latest Terminator back. So at the last minute, John asks for a volunteer or something (basically anyone, I don't see why he couldn't send himself back though). Kyle Reese volunteers out of some admiration that he has for the "legend" that is Sarah Connor. John is like, "eh, whatever, go and protect her" and he does.

Little does that John know that Kyle Reese just ****ed him over (literally). Kyle Reese bangs Sarah and messes up the future . . . and dies. Now this new John Connor (John 2.0) has Kyle for a daddy instead. That skews everything

It's an interesting theory alright, I'm just not sure that's Cameron's intention. It's not a case of John Connor having 2 different fathers but John Connor himself is literally no longer the same person - in a way Skynet succeeds in wiping out the John Connor they know, albeit not by killing anyone. I see how that works but I don't think that's what Cameron intended had happened. (it might aswell be the case though since no iteration of Connor has ever looked anything whatsoever like the other )

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

It's an interesting theory alright, I'm just not sure that's Cameron's intention. It's not a case of John Connor having 2 different fathers but John Connor himself is literally no longer the same person - in a way Skynet succeeds in wiping out the John Connor they know, albeit not by killing anyone. I see how that works but I don't think that's what Cameron intended had happened. (it might aswell be the case though since no iteration of Connor has ever looked anything whatsoever like the other )

Yeah, I doubt that was his intention as well.

That's the only way any of this damn stuff works though. It's physically impossible for Kyle Reese to father John in the very first timeline. Since that's the case, there is no "continuous loop" and what we see in T2 can and will happen. If John can be changed by sending back a volunteered Kyle Reese, then why can't Skynet be changed to send back a more advanced prototype like the T-1000 or invent a more advanced time traveling process (that could explain the difference between the way the two sets of time travellers arrive, T1 just landing on the ground and T2 having the orange sphere burning any solid matter that's in it's path).


This is the kind of **** T3 or Salvation should have been in my opinion. What goes on in the futures depicted in T1 and T2 are much more interesting. I'd even love to see an "original John Connor" that isn't fathered by Reese.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

So the because it used some poetic flourish with regard to the word "tonight" the whole opening text means nothing. No machines rising from nuclear fire, no war that raged for decades, no machines trying to exterminate mankind. All because "tonight" makes it confusing as to whether they mean May 12th, 1984 (when Arnold appeared), May 14th 1984 (when Arnold was destroyed) or if it means the 12th-14th collectively. Yeah, no. The opening text is a part of the movie and if it's somewhat confusing in one part then it's somewhat confusing in that one part. It doesn't mean they opened the film with utter nonsense.

Actually, Khev, if you look at the way it's worded:

You'd have a point if it said, "It would be fought here, in our present, tonight." But the way it's worded makes "Tonight..." the beginning of the story for the final battle, not the end.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

And yet he lets the 1984 events take place exactly as his mum would have experienced them, doing nothing more than sending Reese back and not telling him much of anything but that line to give to Sarah - he seemed to accept that as being 'set'.

If there's no T2, and only ONE Arnold looking Terminator, what would John have told Reese? "Be on the lookout for some buff biker looking dude and get some pipe bombs?" We don't know what Reese knew, all we saw were the tactics he employed, whether they were of his design or based on John's briefing. There really isn't a lot more that John could have said, and that's assuming his mom told him the whole story before she died many years prior. But Reese was spelling out everything he could think of about the future war without any care for how giving her that information might dramatically change things going forward. But to say everything about the future war and nothing about the future T1000 that she'll be fighting first? I don't buy it. John would have made sure Sarah was prepared.

Also with regard to T1 if there really was a T2 wouldn't future John have at least told Reese, "Be on the lookout for a 101. It's definitely going to be one of those." I think he would have. The fact that they're traveling through time at all shows that they have no problem mucking with future history. It's not like they give any Doc Brown-esque speeches about being careful not to change too much, so if they don't care about that might as well go the distance and make sure Sarah is prepared for not only the future war but the T1000 as well.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Actually, Khev, if you look at the way it's worded:

You'd have a point if it said, "It would be fought here, in our present, tonight." But the way it's worded makes "Tonight..." the beginning of the story for the final battle, not the end.

Actually that makes my point even stronger. "The final battle would NOT be fought in the future." Period. 1994 would have been the future. No final battle after 1984 then. No T2. Case closed.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Actually that makes my point even stronger. "The final battle would NOT be fought in the future." Period. 1994 would have been the future. No final battle after 1984 then. No T2. Case closed.

Only until 1991.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

If there's no T2, and only ONE Arnold looking Terminator, what would John have told Reese? "Be on the lookout for some buff biker looking dude and get some pipe bombs?" We don't know what Reese knew, all we saw were the tactics he employed, whether they were of his design or based on John's briefing. There really isn't a lot more that John could have said, and that's assuming his mom told him the whole story before she died many years prior.

But if there IS a T2, wouldn't John have at least said, "Be on the lookout for a 101. It's definitely going to be one of those." I think he would have. The fact that they're going in time at all shows that they have no problem mucking with future history. Might as well go the distance and explain exactly what to expect.

Unless the Kyle Reese we see in T1 is the very first Kyle Reese to be sent in time (with a John Connor who is fathered by someone else). There's no indication that the John Connor we hear about in the first film had Reese as a father, experienced T2, or anything in the first two films. For all we know, it's the very first John Connor that is as new to this whole time travel thing and is sending Reese back simply because the guy volunteered.


With T2, how do we know that this John Connor,

Experienced what this John Connor experiences (reprogrammed T-800, the galleria, pescadero, T-1000, etc.,

He couldn't. In which case, how could he warn or give advice on things he doesn't even know about? It always seemed to me that the "future John Connor's" that we only hear and see briefly in T1 and T2 are dealing with these problems for the first time. The future John in T1? He didn't know about Skynet sending the T-800 back to kill Sarah until after the defense grid was smashed. The T2 future John? He knew that Skynet would send a T-800 back to kill Sarah Connor, but the T-1000 was a new threat and news to him.

Then obviously that cycle stops since there's a reprogrammed T-800 that gives Sarah all the information she needs to find Dyson and stop Judgement Day. Something that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

You know what's funny, up until this very conversation I've always taken T2 as taking place in 1994 (1984 plus 10 year old John.) But if Sarah got pregnant in May 1984 then John would have been born in 85 and T2 then would be 1995.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Unless the Kyle Reese we see in T1 is the very first Kyle Reese to be sent in time (with a John Connor who is fathered by someone else).

I actually like this train of thought. If you think about it the original John *had* to be fathered by someone else and then that dad was replaced by Reese's DNA on account of Skynet's attempts to change the timeline though I do think that from a writing standpoint Reese's comment about knowing that the father dies before the war begins was supposed to be him unwittingly referencing himself. Plus he mentions that John is "about my height." Could be coincidence but I do believe that's another hint that Reese himself was the father of the future John that he did know.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

This conversation has me skull****ed. I can only imagine what it's like to read if you're not part of it.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

I actually like this train of thought. If you think about it the original John *had* to be fathered by someone else and then that dad was replaced by Reese's DNA on account of Skynet's attempts to change the timeline though I do think that from a writing standpoint Reese's comment about knowing that the father dies before the war begins was supposed to be him unwittingly referencing himself. Plus he mentions that John is "about my height." Could be coincidence but I do believe that's another hint that Reese himself was the father of the future John that he did know.

Yes I think that was the intention by Cameron ''hey isn't that ****ed up?'' so even though Difabio's idea seems more plausible to me I don't think I can make my own arguments from it much as I do think that theory certainly helps T2's case.

I believe Cameron intended John Connor to be one guy, and always fathered by Reese, no matter how little sense it appears to make. But then, that's another problem originating in the great T1 isn't it.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

I actually like this train of thought. If you think about it the original John *had* to be fathered by someone else and then that dad was replaced by Reese's DNA on account of Skynet's attempts to change the timeline.

That's what I've been saying this whole time. That's why T2 can happen. If T1 can happen with the weird "what came first, the John Connor or the Kyle Reese" problem, then T2 is valid.


This is how I see it,



Timeline 1

- (hypothetically) Sarah Connor gets pissed that she's stood up by her boyfriend. She goes off to that pizza place or whatever, and maybe, by fate, goes to Tech Noir. She finds some dude and has a one night stand with him. She gets knocked up and has a son, John Connor. Through a variety of reasons and circumstances, she becomes disgustingly militant. That passes on to John. While this is happening, Skynet is invented by Cyberdyne Systems. It becomes self aware and Judgment Day happens. John is one of the survivors, he's sent to those extermination camps/prisons where he has to dispose of fellow humans. There he meets Kyle Reese, a fellow prisoner. John's background allows him to break out of the camps and rally a rag tag resistance that includes Reese. Decades of fighting ensues. John and his team find out that Skynet sent a Terminator back in time as a last ditch effort to defeat Connor. Connor needs a volunteer to go back in time, Kyle Reese who wants a chance at "meeting the legend" and some soldier named Sumner (Deleted Scene from T1) volunteer and go back in time. John gives Reese and Sumner a photo so they have a face to the name. After decades of fighting, the resistance storms Skynet's compound, smashes it's defense grid and win. John sends Reese and Sumner back.


Timeline 2


- The Terminator, Reese and Sumner arrive in 1984. Sumner dies when he's fused to objects in the alley way(Deleted Scene from T1). Sarah Connor gets pissed that she's stood up by her boyfriend. She goes off to that pizza place then sees the Sarah Connor killings. She goes to Tech Noir after being stalked by Reese. It plays out like the film shows. Sarah and Kyle have sex, Kyle dies, the Terminator gets crushed, etc. Sarah goes into hiding, training John. Judgment Day happens, John has extensive knowledge on the war now thanks to Reese circumventing the time line and becoming his father. Now when he meets Reese, he doesn't see him as a buddy, but as his dad. Now he HAS to send Kyle back to exist as his current self. They win the war, yadda, yadda, yadda, Kyle Reese is sent back in time thinking he volunteered. Since Connor doesn't know about Sumner, there's no point in sending him too.

Timeline 3


- The Terminator film as we know it. The Terminator and Reese arrive in 1984. Sarah Connor gets pissed that she's stood up by her boyfriend. She goes off to that pizza place then sees the Sarah Connor killings. She goes to Tech Noir after being stalked by Reese. It plays out like the film shows. Sarah and Kyle have sex, Kyle dies, the Terminator gets crushed, etc. Cyberdyne finds the arm and chip from the Terminator. This expedites the development of Skynet. Miles Dyson is brought on board. Sarah goes into hiding and trains John to be a great "military leader". She then tries to blow up a computer factory and is sent to Pescadero. Since she knows Judgment Day is two years away thanks to Kyle, she escapes, takes John back (against his will) and they go into hiding. Judgment Day happens. John has extensive knowledge on the war now thanks to Reese circumventing the time line and becoming his father. Skynet is even more advanced than prior iterations of Skynet thanks to the arm and the chip from the Terminator. Now when Connor meets Reese, he doesn't see him as a buddy, but as his dad. Now he HAS to send Kyle back to exist as his current self. Likewise, Skynet HAS to send the Terminator back to exist in it's current state. Now that it's more advanced, the T-1000 is the newest/latest prototype and it sends it back to 1995 to kill a young John Connor, just in case the T-800 fails to kill Sarah. John finds out about this new development. They win the war, yadda, yadda, yadda, Kyle Reese is sent back time thinking he volunteered. Since John Connor never knew about the T-1000 until the last minute, he and his men send back a reprogrammed Terminator to protect him. So now, Skynet just doesn't send the T-800 back, but a T-1000 as well (for added measures). Likewise, John just doesn't send Reese back, he sends the last ditch, reprogrammed T-800 back as well.

- Terminator 2 as we know it. Plays out like in the movie. Now that the T-800 and T-1000 are thrown into the mix, this is literally the FINAL battle. Now that Sarah and John have the reprogrammed T-800, they know who is responsible for Judgement Day. If the T-1000 and T-800 weren't sent back, Sarah would have still escaped Pescadero, found John and hid. Since the reprogrammed T-800 intervened, they're able to destroy Cyberdyne Systems and all of it's research, Skynet no longer exists. The End.