The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.
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jye4ever
Broke and happy
They're not making another one are they? We really don't need to see the Cyberdyne Systems Model John McClane anymore.
The Clown Prince of Crime
Super Freak
T-800 vs Rambo Round 1 and 2
Genisys was on telly recently and again I couldn't help but think they really should have taken Terminator-John's peace offering more seriously. The very fact he was talking to them instead of simply outright trying to kill them from the get-go - why would he even do that? What did he have in mind? What did Skynet have to gain from an alliance? Was its willingness to talk an indication that it was now open to the idea of not wiping out humanity? It warranted exploration, surely, especially given the usual alternative.
Re: The "All things Terminator" thread.
Oh wow, the thigh is definitely not in the correct spot.
Oh wow, the thigh is definitely not in the correct spot.
I agree a-dev. A possible different avenue that they raise and then don't explore, instead just doing the same ol' same ol'. Kinda like how they raise interesting possibilities in Dark Fate by having a Terminator actually succeed in its mission to kill John -
what will that Terminator now do? Lets see that. What will Sarah do?...only to simply proceed with a storyline of another Terminator sent to kill another saviour of humanity. Wow, brilliant and innovative. You really made killing off a lynchpin character worthwhile and didn't in any way make the first two movies completely pointless.
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ajp4mgs
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The rest of this thread from now on should be you replying to your old posts.
The Terminator who kills John post-T2 would eventually learn that Skynet will not exist unless he somehow works with humans to use his own advanced technology to reverse engineer the building blocks for another version of Skynet. To preserve his "species." IMO, advanced AI fighting a future war with humans would indeed be just as tribal as any living species. They'd want to preserve their own, even if it means restarting it all.
He wouldn't settle for selling drapes. A T-800 (or any Terminator model) who is from a future of tech so advanced as to come up with functional time travel should be resourceful enough to preserve his kind. I have to believe that any AI "culture" so obsessed with maintaining their superiority over humans in the future would be intelligent enough to program backup plans into their time-travelling terminators with the intent of ensuring the future they wanted.
And if the premise is that Skynet sent multiple terminators back in time to different points in their past, there'd eventually be several terminators roaming around simultaneously. Maybe they'd even coordinate with each other and start the new takeover themselves; coercing certain humans/companies into unwittingly starting an alternate future war. The story drama would come from who steps in to stop them, and how.
The rest of this thread from now on should be you replying to your old posts.
The Terminator who kills John post-T2 would eventually learn that Skynet will not exist unless he somehow works with humans to use his own advanced technology to reverse engineer the building blocks for another version of Skynet. To preserve his "species." IMO, advanced AI fighting a future war with humans would indeed be just as tribal as any living species. They'd want to preserve their own, even if it means restarting it all.
He wouldn't settle for selling drapes. A T-800 (or any Terminator model) who is from a future of tech so advanced as to come up with functional time travel should be resourceful enough to preserve his kind. I have to believe that any AI "culture" so obsessed with maintaining their superiority over humans in the future would be intelligent enough to program backup plans into their time-travelling terminators with the intent of ensuring the future they wanted.
And if the premise is that Skynet sent multiple terminators back in time to different points in their past, there'd eventually be several terminators roaming around simultaneously. Maybe they'd even coordinate with each other and start the new takeover themselves; coercing certain humans/companies into unwittingly starting an alternate future war. The story drama would come from who steps in to stop them, and how.
Yeah, you would think.
What you talk about here sounds interesting. It doesn't seem to be the case as of Dark Fate though. It seems they literally just program one mission objective, after which, the machine is left to its own devices and is susceptible to outside influence. The T2 special edition offered up a fix to this with the ''Read-only'' mode - not sure how that would work exactly but the implication seems to have been that it would stop individual Terminators turning against Skynet by ''doing too much thinking''.
In any case Dark Fate said that the T2 special edition wasn't canon and apparently Skynet has a Que Sera Sera attitude about what its Terminators get up to once they complete their one programmed mission. So your idea makes more sense but if we humour the 67 Dark Fate writers and go with their premise - well then they should have made the film about how Carl becomes Carl*. Make us like him before Sarah tracks him down to Terminate him. Break the format a bit - no Dani, no Rev-9, no Grace (although I did kinda like her) - do a Terminator character study film
Again, that's if they still refused to do the T:2029 future/prequel....and if they insisted on killing John Connor....and if they had to do another one at all
edit * though I suppose they'd have had to do an awful lot of CG de-aging work....
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Yeah you would think and what you talk about here sounds interesting. It doesn't seem to be the case as of Dark Fate though. It seems they literally just program one mission objective, after which, the machine is left to its own devices and is susceptible to outside influence. The T2 special edition offered up a fix to this with the ''Read-only'' mode - not sure how that would work exactly but the implication seems to have been that it would stop individual Terminators turning against Skynet by ''doing too much thinking''.
In any case Dark Fate said that the T2 special edition wasn't canon and apparently Skynet has a Que Sera Sera attitude about what its Terminators get up to once they complete their one programmed mission. So your idea makes more sense but if we humour the 67 Dark Fate writers and go with their premise - well then they should have made the film about that - show us how Carl becomes Carl*. Make us like him before Sarah tracks him down to Terminate him. Break the format a bit - no Dani, no Rev-9, no Grace (although I did kinda like her) - do a Terminator character study film
Again, if they still refused to do the T:2029 future/prequel....and if they insisted on killing John Connor....and if they had to insist on doing another one at all
How bizarre that we got to see a convincing and satisfying "rehabilitation" sequence of freaking IG-11 of all droids through a series of flashbacks that made his newfound loyalty and ultimate sacrifice all the more poignant and that was a droid with no human features whatsoever! But DF gave us no such sequence, apparently content with just having the audience coast on the memory of John rehabilitating Uncle Bob in T2 and nothing more.
A-dev I still have not seen Dark Fate. I don't really want to watch a movie where JC is killed off as a kid (in the opening scene) rendering the first two movies pointless. Am I missing out at all? If you could send a terminator back in time to erase your memory of this movie with an adamantium bullet to the brain would you (hmm not sure where that reference came from thank god the x-men movies never jumped the wolverine)?
All I want is for them to close the loop and shoot the future war movie with Kyle Reese and grown up JC. They have the technology now so it could look pretty good and even if it didn't I'm sure seeing deep fake Michael Biehn going back in time naked would be A-dev's Mando Luke moment. Finally he will know why us ST hating man babies cried ... maybe it's even something he can do too?
Or they could have gone that character study route you have all suggested (like Logan but hopefully even better than that). I could have enjoyed that. Have Carl find his humanity only for SC to lose hers completely and finally become the terminator that she threatened to be in T2. Perhaps Carl has his own life and family to protect ... maybe his endo-junk even works and he has a biological child (or adopts one) ... maybe he calls it John as well for maximum subtle not subtle irony. That might be interesting. Then Sarah really is the last legacy of skynet has she roams around killing people in cold blood to find Carl and terminate him so she can melt his brain chip (destroying all physical remnants of skynet) - however, this is then played off her later desire for the very human desire for revenge when she finds that Karl has a family and a life, both of which he denied her.
Then when SC and Carl inevitably die in this new trilogy, new John ... who am I kidding, Joan can bury Carl's brain chip and the photo of SC from T1 (which has not now been burned up, a story for another time) at the site of the old Technoir nightclub (now redeveloped as a charity shop but with the same sign) and an old punk will ask her name and she will reply Joan Connor then whip out her atm machine scrambler device (which is now a new colour) and steal some cash.
All I want is for them to close the loop and shoot the future war movie with Kyle Reese and grown up JC. They have the technology now so it could look pretty good and even if it didn't I'm sure seeing deep fake Michael Biehn going back in time naked would be A-dev's Mando Luke moment. Finally he will know why us ST hating man babies cried ... maybe it's even something he can do too?
Or they could have gone that character study route you have all suggested (like Logan but hopefully even better than that). I could have enjoyed that. Have Carl find his humanity only for SC to lose hers completely and finally become the terminator that she threatened to be in T2. Perhaps Carl has his own life and family to protect ... maybe his endo-junk even works and he has a biological child (or adopts one) ... maybe he calls it John as well for maximum subtle not subtle irony. That might be interesting. Then Sarah really is the last legacy of skynet has she roams around killing people in cold blood to find Carl and terminate him so she can melt his brain chip (destroying all physical remnants of skynet) - however, this is then played off her later desire for the very human desire for revenge when she finds that Karl has a family and a life, both of which he denied her.
Then when SC and Carl inevitably die in this new trilogy, new John ... who am I kidding, Joan can bury Carl's brain chip and the photo of SC from T1 (which has not now been burned up, a story for another time) at the site of the old Technoir nightclub (now redeveloped as a charity shop but with the same sign) and an old punk will ask her name and she will reply Joan Connor then whip out her atm machine scrambler device (which is now a new colour) and steal some cash.
Then she'll take her cash and go strike a pose in front of the sunrise with her faithful German Shepherd at her side, lol.
How about:
"What is the dog's name?"
"Max."
"Max who?"
*pauses, turns, sees the shimmering apparition of two proud and smiling German Shepherds*
"Max Wolfie."
Duh nuh nuh Nuh nuh nuh....Duh nuh nuh Nuh nuh NUH nuh....
"What is the dog's name?"
"Max."
"Max who?"
*pauses, turns, sees the shimmering apparition of two proud and smiling German Shepherds*
"Max Wolfie."
Duh nuh nuh Nuh nuh nuh....Duh nuh nuh Nuh nuh NUH nuh....
ajp4mgs
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Yeah, you would think.
What you talk about here sounds interesting. It doesn't seem to be the case as of Dark Fate though. It seems they literally just program one mission objective, after which, the machine is left to its own devices and is susceptible to outside influence. The T2 special edition offered up a fix to this with the ''Read-only'' mode - not sure how that would work exactly but the implication seems to have been that it would stop individual Terminators turning against Skynet by ''doing too much thinking''.
In any case Dark Fate said that the T2 special edition wasn't canon and apparently Skynet has a Que Sera Sera attitude about what its Terminators get up to once they complete their one programmed mission. So your idea makes more sense but if we humour the 67 Dark Fate writers and go with their premise - well then they should have made the film about how Carl becomes Carl*. Make us like him before Sarah tracks him down to Terminate him. Break the format a bit - no Dani, no Rev-9, no Grace (although I did kinda like her) - do a Terminator character study film
Again, that's if they still refused to do the T:2029 future/prequel....and if they insisted on killing John Connor....and if they had to do another one at all
edit * though I suppose they'd have had to do an awful lot of CG de-aging work....
While I agree that the "character study" approach could've made Dark Fate a more compelling film, I actually would've resented it even more. To me, the Terminator films are based on man versus machine (and in more ways than one). I don't think it should ever turn into "machines can become more human on their own." Not only has that concept been explored elsewhere, but it undermines the very premise of the franchise, imo.
In T2, Uncle Bob was an exception to the rule. And he was an exception only because it took a human to reprogram him to protect. The future John Connor didn't send a machine back to destroy a life (could've killed a Skynet founder, a scientist, an engineer, etc.); he sent a machine back to protect and save. That human response is a stark contrast to that of the machines. I think it'd be a cool theme to maintain.
For me, the true potential of Dark Fate was in the idea of multiple Terminators sent back to different points in time to kill John. Having one of them succeed opens up a ton of possibilities to extend the man vs. machine conflict that the movie chose not to explore.
The Skynet we saw at the start of T2 was one that got a huge head start by having future T-800 tech available for study in 1984. With T2 actually being set in the late 90's (in order for John's age to make sense), Sarah and John erased 15 years of machine progress. That's their legacy, and I think it would *always* be a significant one, no matter what happens to post-T2 John. But the Skynet tech from the future literally walking around with no Skynet (but also no John Connor) is really intriguing to me. I would've preferred that kind of return to the basics.
My head-canon here is that being in read-write mode was what made Carl succeed where other Terminators didn't. Skynet may have decided to risk sending 1 back in this configuration so that it would be more adaptable and find more ways to succeed.
I wish they just continued from Salvation. It's not a perfect movie, but could've been built on and improved with a sequel or two.
Would've been a better strategy than two crummy reboots.
As it was in the book of Genisys
Watch it is a time passer. It's OK entertainment, just no more acceptable as a T2 sequel than any of the prior T2 sequels it presumed to erase.
I'll list the pros as far as I'm concerned -
- John's death scene was done well - wouldn't have been out of place as some nightmare scene in T2
- Grace brought a Kyle Reese-esque vibe to proceedings. Interesting concept, decent character
- it's always good to see Arnie on screen even if one rejects what they've done to the T-800
- Sarah Connor was cool albeit implausibly durable
- I enjoyed the final brawl at the end
*Arnie laugh* Yes exactly
They kinda did it for the T1 T-800 in Genisys. Shame about the surrounding movie.
That's what I'm talkin' about. Minus the endo-junk and biological child
I still might not have considered it canon because I think T2 is really where the chronological story should have ended but it would have been something different. That or ajp's suggestion. It certainly wasn't worth making a sequel, especially one in which you have John killed mere weeks or months after the events of T2, when the only idea was to swap his role out for a girl. Narratively that offers nothing new, no new angle, just an excuse to do more of the same. I know I'm preaching to the choir here.
Then she'll take her cash and go strike a pose in front of the sunrise with her faithful German Shepherd at her side, lol.
It's generally agreed that T2 is set in 1995. The police computer the T-1000 looks at near the start of the film when he acquires the squad car says that John is 10. As he had to be born in 1985 that puts T2 in '95 and Judgement Day is '97 according to the T-800.
It kinda seems implausible that John would be as mature and capable as he is at only 10 years old but that's what Cameron went with, I suppose to establish him as a prodigy - and the fact that Skynet would naturally target him as early as they possibly could.
So it's 10 years of AI work that they erased. Is that significant though? In a world where time travel can be a thing and in which - as the various sequels have dictated - Judgement Day is inevitable. It seems we always develop AI and it always turns against us. Kinda goes against the ''No Fate but what we make'' message of the first two movies. Of course, if that's an issue, it's an issue with everything post-T2 and regardless of killing John Connor.
The issue with John being killed - while technically permissible if any sequel at all is permissible - is the unwanted emotional gutpunch - if you're really expected to go from the classic ending of T2 right on into Dark Fate with the optics of ''Uncle Bob'' coming back and mercilessly gunning John down. Man that's grim, and your gut reaction is to ask ''couldn't we have just left well alone?'' and that's before you even get to the uninspired rehash plot that ensued.
Interesting concept. It's a bit moot applied to Dark Fate though because the film doesn't follow that T-800 to show him using this enhanced adaptability in his mission. We just see him walking into a scene and shooting John dead with no context - might aswell just be like any other T-800 Terminator as far as what we actually get to see.
The ''read-only'' idea. On the one hand I like it, it makes sense for Skynet to have a safeguard (which maybe they couldn't put in the T-1000 hence that tidbit of EU (or screenplay?) detail that Skynet was wary of the T-1000) - but I'm not really clear on what it bars the individual T-800 unit from doing. Can Skynet not just program a default list of Dos and Don'ts for all their infiltrators to follow that would serve the same purpose while not being so vague for a movie audience?
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ajp4mgs
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I forgot about those details (and the idea that T2 John being about the same age as TPM Anakin is a tough one to wrap my head around
). So yeah, 10 years they erased rather than 15. Thank you for pointing that out. 
I still consider what John and Sarah (and Uncle Bob) accomplished in T2 to be hugely significant, be it either 10 or 15 years. In their timeline, Skynet was only as advanced as it was because of the reverse engineering of the CPU and arm from the defeated terminator of the first film, right? That means it's a Skynet that presumably progressed faster than the one which existed in Kyle Reese's original future.
By destroying all of that work, John and Sarah not only erased the origin of the Skynet that had advanced faster, but also erased progress that had been started by Cyberdyne perhaps even before 1984. Sure, Dark Fate's use of "Legion" makes their accomplishment seem worthless, but what I was saying was that it didn't need to go there at all in this recent movie.
What I wish I could've seen as the central plot of Dark Fate instead is the idea of multiple terminators (after the T-1000) sent from the Skynet future realizing that the John Connor termination didn't happen until *after* their Skynet future had been upended. Those terminators would've had to coordinate a restart effort for any comparable AI takeover to happen. Thus, a new "Future War" could've started in Dark Fate with a small group of terminators having gotten that process under way in the years leading up to the older version of Sarah Connor.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I prefer the man vs. machine aspect of the franchise, and that DF could've provided a fresh take on that war without trampling on the victory from T2. The point you make about how post-T2 sequels undermine the ''No Fate but what we make'' theme from T1 and T2 is why I wish they hadn't simply recycled the whole scenario from those movies (merely changing "Skynet" into "Legion"). That was my main frustration: that there wasn't an extension of T1 and T2 so much as a repackaging.
Understood. I guess where I differ on this issue stems from the fact that the heroics of John Connor as future resistance leader would no longer be needed after the events of T2. What he accomplished with his mom and Uncle Bob prevented a nuclear Judgment Day and still could've been the case even with a sequel movie (and perhaps future ones as well). And Dark Fate showed me that it could've happened based on the premise that more terminators were sent for him after the T-1000.
John being gunned down would still be a gut punch, but it could be purposeful if Sarah uses him as a martyr to inspire a fight against any attempt to undo their victory. She could've recruited people to fight with her in the years between John being gunned down and the actual modern-day events of the sequel, and still be done in a way that preserved the T2 achievement without simply making Judgment Day seem inevitable no matter what.
Maybe Dark Fate could've been more of an epilogue. Or maybe it could've been the start of a different kind of war between man and machine. Either way, I think it could've happened with enough original story purpose to keep the audience from wondering "why bother?" with sequels at all.
Sounds like T:SCC, minus the older Sarah.
I love the idea of reversing the roles though, where Sarah turns into the single-minded killer motivated by vengeance and a blind hate for anyone remotely associated with AI development, and Carl turning into a protector of sorts. Maybe Sarah's aggression is what pushes AI to think humanity is a threat.
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