I can fix all of these issues stemming from T2 (as I referenced earlier), but it would require the *three* timelines scenario that I had mentioned in earlier posts. My guess is that you wouldn't want a third timeline. All I'll say in its defense is that you'd eliminate these inconsistencies that you listed here while still having both movies interconnected (albeit not to a point where all current-day events are happening in the same timeline).
I'll leave it up to you. If you're willing to entertain three timelines, here's how it would work:
1.) A timeline where 1984 and 1995 have no visitors from the future. But when it gets to 2029, a T-800 (and Kyle Reese) travel back and end up creating a branched timeline with a new version of 1984.
2.) Identical to #1 up until May of 1984. That's when this one branches off because T-800 and Kyle Reese didn't exist in the 1984 of #1. The T-800 gets defeated; Kyle dies; and the T-800 CPU and arm end up leading Cyberdyne to develop Skynet differently than in timeline #1. No visitors arrive from the future during 1995. And when this timeline gets to 2029, Skynet sends a T-1000 (which is more advanced because Skynet itself is more advanced than in #1) to 1995 and John sends Uncle Bob.
3.) Identical to #2 up until 1995. Branches off from #2 at that point because T-1000 and Uncle Bob didn't exist in the 1995 of #2. Skynet gets wiped out; T-1000 and Uncle Bob melt into oblivion; no Judgment Day; and no Future War. John and Sarah either live however you want them to, or they end up how Dark Fate portrays them.
Well I'm open to whatever makes it work, preferably in such a way that doesn't diminish the strengths of the concept that I previously praised it for and preferably such that doesn't cause new problems.
After much consideration I think you're really onto something - in my rundown below I think it can be shown that the third timeline does indeed allow for all present-day events taking place in one timeline (unless I misunderstood you in the part I underlined).
Before I get into it, it seems prudent first of all to add a reminder of what your general premise of time travel is
Every mission to the past that originates from the 2029 timeline would be sent in the "direction" of that same timeline's past. But as soon as the first subject (T-800) arrives in 1984, that event immediately creates a parallel branch because the original version of 1984 never had a Terminator in it. So, the T-800 creates a branched timeline that shares the exact same history up until 1984. Everything beyond that is open-ended and doesn't need to conform to any pre-determined future.
The next time disruption takes place when Kyle Reese arrives shortly thereafter (though that's kinda crazy on John's part). Reese would also be sent in the direction of the 2029 timeline's past, but would also need to occupy a separate branch from his original one because it had no adult Reese existing in 1984. However, I don't think this event would need to create a third timeline. That's because T-800 already created one with an *unwritten future.* So Reese would get slotted right into that same branched one since it would be the closest available variant with an open-ended future that he could be part of.
The rules governing reality have revealed themselves to be efficient even if they seemed convoluted when they were initially discovered. Time travel via parallel timelines might someday prove the same. And even the movie term "time displacement" can refer to the process of taking the traveler into the most approximate timeline (the "closest" branch) from his own original one which he could occupy without any paradox. It's certainly plausible, imo.
It's at least as valid as any other theory we've seen in movies and quite possibly moreso. I think I saw you say something like this in another post - the universe cannot permit a time-paradox. Its way of auto-correcting is parallel timelines.
Now I'm going to dive into your 3 timelines and see what describing them in more detail reveals. To be clear to anyone else reading, everything I'm saying originates from ajp's idea - some of my phrasing may make it seem like I'm pretending it was mine....
Timeline 1 - Since the point of this exercise is get rid of this notion of a perpetual time-loop paradox, the original timeline necessarily has to involve a John Connor who is not Kyle Reese's son. Some unknown guy conceived him with the Linda Hamilton Sarah Connor we know. She was indeed a waitress as of 1984 but presumably went on to other things of her own making and became the mother to a great, inspiring military leader. We of course see none of this. In fact the only parts of this timeline we see are the 2029 flashforwards in T1 (which I think you said in a previous post, ajp). The Reese we know from T1 came from here. Through circumstances we don't see he became known to, respected and personally liked by John - liked enough that John bequeaths to him something of personal importance, a picture of his mother.
Somewhat weird, it's an area this whole enterprise requires that we retcon a bit because some dialogue in the film implies that Reese realizes after-the-fact that in giving him the photograph John must have been deliberately setting him up to volunteer to go back in time - he thinks - just to protect Sarah (while John knows - also to become his father). For our purposes we have to forget that and invent some other reason John would give away a picture of his mum to one of his troops. Perhaps Kyle was at a low point and John was imparting an inspiring story about Sarah - trying to remind him of a world before, a world they were fighting to bring back. That Kyle would develop an infatuation with Sarah was not something John intended or foresaw nor does he know in advance that he will be sending Kyle back through time to protect her from a Terminator.
Ultimately, at the culmination of the war against the machines, they make the discovery of the TDE and Skynet's plot to erase John Connor from existence using an infiltrator T-800 sent to the year 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Skynet knows this action will not change the current reality in which it is defeated and doomed. However, the plan is that in a new timeline the T-800 will not only prevent John Connor from being born but it will reintegrate its memory with the Skynet that eventually arises there. The original Skynet will in this way be 'reborn' - and now into circumstances more favorable towards victory in the war.
To John Connor and the Resistance time travel is a whole new ballgame, no one knows for sure how this works but John reasons that they must respond to cover any possible scenario and then destroy the whole facility. Kyle Reese does not hesitate to volunteer. As John has a particular trust in Reese aswell as faith in his combat experience he agrees that it should be him. As planned, once Reese goes through they evacuate and blow up the complex. The war is now settled in this timeline. Everyone here lives happily ever after, whatever that can be.
I want to remind myself (and anyone else who's following this) how - in this 3 timeline theory - it no longer matters that Skynet sends the T-800
before the resistance manages to send Kyle Reese. In a single timeline scenario this should have been an unreconcilable paradox because the instant Skynet sent the T-800 back in time it should have been an immediate success. It would have arrived first and with no one there to stop him it would have killed Sarah Connor. The Terminator and its actions would automatically become part of the past from the 2029 perspective, so why then does John Connor still exist in the future to have the opportunity to then send back Reese? I previously deferred to some madeup rationale stolen from BTTF or Star Trek to ''explain'' it but
ajp's idea does a better job. The original timeline always remains unaffected by any time travel into the past. The first T-800 immediately began the new branched timeline when he arrived in 1984 - he could have killed Sarah Connor
except John Connor and the Resistance still existed in the unchanged original timeline and were in a position to do something about it. They send Kyle Reese. Per the time travel rules outlined in my ajp quotes above, Reese arrives in the same timeline as the T-800 and can go to work.
So the above is largely not actually seen in the movies. But now...
Timeline 2 - this is the first parallel branch off of the main timeline and it goes from T1's 1984 - uninterrupted by any further time travel incursions - all the way up to 2029 when Skynet eventually uses the TDE again - in fact for 'the first time' in this timeline.
Kyle Reese arrives, finds Sarah and flees with her from the T-800. At every opportunity he must explain to her what is to come - notably different under this theory is that when he is telling her about her son John Connor he is referring to ''original John'' - all the while, his infatuation with this young woman he previously only knew from a single photograph and John's stories quickly turns to love now that he's with her and the gravity of the whole situation impresses on them both. After everything he has been through in his life (and his celibacy) he can't help himself. If she's going to go for it so is he. And she goes for it. But does Kyle consider the possible consequences of having *** with Sarah Connor, the mother of the future? Lets remember he previously had no notion of himself being John's father. Sarah actually asks about the father and Kyle says ''John never said much about him...I know he dies before the wa-''. So he doesn't go into this situation thinking that it's him. Well, Kyle, you weren't the dad before but you will be now. I suppose it could be speculated that if they'd gotten a moments peace after that he would have been very concerned indeed about what he'd just done but from then on it's literally non-stop pursuit by the Terminator until Reese is killed.
At the film's conclusion we have Sarah making audio tapes for her unborn son, John.
Reese of course is the father but Sarah speaks as though he always had been. More than that she seems to be expecting that John will again have to send Reese back in time in order to maintain his own existence.
She thinks it's a loop, her recent past and the future mutually dependent on eachother. For our purposes I guess we simply have to say that she's mistaken in this notion but it's not ideal. It's a dead giveaway of Cameron and Wisher's intentions when the central character of the movie is saying these things in the epilogue.
The deleted ending to T1 reveals that the factory where the final showdown with the Terminator took place was Cyberdyne - the remnants of the T-800 are being recovered and kept secret there. It's fair to say that even if there had been zero remnants to be discovered Skynet was still going to come into existence - albeit more within the original timeframe. But the T-800's damaged brain-chip and surviving mechanical parts will go on to be studied and it will expedite the development of Skynet under Miles B Dyson.
Meanwhile, Sarah Connor is raising John - Kyle Reese's son (the Furlong version) who in this timeline will have the same experiences as T2 movie John up until 1995 but will live a different life beyond that not seen in any film. Now knowing what she knows, Sarah is forcing John's development much sooner - ''Shacking up'' with whoever she could learn from to teach John how to be a ''Great Military Leader'', ''flying around in helicopters'', teaching him ''how to blow ***t up''* - all to prepare him for his role in the future war. It deprives him of a childhood and he resents it. When she embarks on a failed attempt to stop Cyberdyne in its tracks and gets locked up in Pescadero, John has little sympathy and seems to think she belongs there. He no longer believes anything she's been talking about. With her in the mental institute the Voights take over his parenting.
*
how all this fit into John's mere 10 years of existence and how someone so young could actually have the maturity and aptitude for any of it is another thing. We've always just had to give Cameron leeway on that one.
Wherever John is in 1997, he obviously survives the nuclear war though he will still only be 12 at this point. We don't know what happens to Sarah exactly but John, now knowing his mother was right all along, will do much of his growing up in the ruins hiding from HKs not unlike how his father had. With no choice but to face reality John vows to become what he was supposed to become, eventually rising to his ultimate prominence in the Resistance.
Fasting forward, it's 2029 and once again Skynet is nearing total ruin. Under similar circumstances as the original timeline John and his soldiers storm the HQ with the Time Displacement Equipment. Now John knows to look for it because he knows what his mother told him; he listened to her tapes. He knows about the T-800 that tried to kill her the year before his birth. He knows that a man in his very company, Kyle Reese, is his father. So if John doesn't question what his mother said in the tapes it means he goes in there expecting to find that Skynet has sent a T-800 back to 1984 and that he will have to send Kyle Reese after it. However, he will instead be surprised to discover a different plot. A terrifying new prototype - the T-1000 - has been sent to 1995 to kill him when he was a child.
Remember, according to Kyle Reese the T-800 infiltrators were 'the newest, the worst', he made no mention of a T-1000. The T-1000 is particular to this timeline where Skynet developed sooner leading to new advancements not seen in the original timeline (love this, credit again to ajp). No human soldier would stand a chance against a T-1000 so how would they tackle this situation? In an offshoot chamber is a row of inactive T-800 infiltrators with which the Resistance has now endured a long period of experience and learned things about them in the process. Now that they have access to inactive and undamaged T-800s Connor's top tech-person believes they have a good shot at reprogramming one. It is their best hope.
So, this adult version of Edward Furlong's Connor does not know Uncle Bob, he has no connection to the T-800 he now sends back to 1995. Nevertheless it means that when Uncle Bob goes back in time he will be looking for
this John Connor and there will be no inconsistency when he tells the child (Furlong) Connor that he (T-800) was sent by him. Because remember, if original John from timeline 1 had sent Uncle Bob he would have been programmed to look for an entirely different kid and never would have found him because that kid never came to exist in timeline 2. Uncle Bob has to have been sent by the same JC of Terminator 2 for the dialogue in that ''who sent you'' scene to line up with this theory.
Timeline 3 - The T-1000 and the T-800 are sent 'in the direction of' the past of their own timeline which was timeline 2. The history that they know comprises the new origins of Skynet dictated by the 1984 events in the first film. However, because the T-1000 was not originally in the 1995 of this timeline his presence now creates a new branch. But importantly
the events of T1 will still be the past of this new branch. Uncle Bob, per the same rules as the first time travelling pair in T1, will reach this new timeline also (and in the movie apparently even arrives first).
The new 1995 will play out as we see in T2 while everything before that stays the same. So in effect the Sarah Connor of T2
is still the same Sarah Connor who experienced a T-800 trying to kill her in 1984 and thus has the reaction to Uncle Bob that she does.
Incidentally, perhaps if Furlong Connor had known that the T-800 who tried to kill his mom was a model 101 he'd have picked a different model number to use as his own protector in the past. I guess Sarah could easily have forgotten that particular detail when recounting her story to John in the tapes etc
Sarah's narration at the start of T2 will remain correct as far as she's concerned - ''Skynet sent 2 Terminators back through time. The first was programmed to strike at me in the year 1984 before John was born. It failed. The second was set to strike at John himself when he was still a child'' - the only thing she won't know is that these were 2 separate plots enacted by Skynet from different timelines. Her narration continues ''as before, the Resistance was able to send a lone warrior, a protector for John'' - again, this is correct but she doesn't know that each protector came from a different timeline. ''It was just a question of which one of them would reach him first'' - in open-ended timelines (without a pre-set future) this last line now has greater meaning because heck maybe the bad guy
will reach John first. Or maybe the protector will but it won't matter...watch and see what happens!
Looking further into T2 we can say that whenever Uncle Bob is relaying the 'history of things to come' - to John, to Sarah and later to Dyson - he is talking about things that
did occur as he describes them from the timeline he came from (Timeline 2). When he is talking to Sarah about Skynet becoming self aware, Judgment Day etc he is giving information accurate to
his timeline, not to the one she was told about by Kyle in the first film - but she doesn't actually know this nor is Uncle Bob necessarily aware of her misunderstanding. As far as she is concerned Uncle Bob is from her Kyle Reese's future and he is giving specific details - from the horse's mouth so to speak - that Reese never could. In any case it wouldn't change her renewed determination to destroy Cyberdyne and avert Judgment Day.
A problem I previously brought up was the conversation between John and Uncle Bob when they're fixing the car at Enrique's camp - about John's real dad. There's a similar issue here as there was with T1 Sarah's closing monologue for the tapes she was making - where it was pretty clear she was expecting that John would have to
again send Kyle Reese back through time. Because she has relayed this to John, he himself believes it and his lines during this conversation with Uncle Bob are telling - ''I wish I could have met my real Dad.....I send him back through time to 1984''. If he's anticipating that he himself will have to do it then we again just have to say that he's mistaken. Even if they didn't go on to destroy Cyberdyne and stop Judgment Day - correct me if I'm wrong ajp - he would not have to send back Reese. That plot had already played out and become part of the past. The future is dependent on the past but the past cannot be dependent on the future.
Skynet would not have to worry about jeopardizing its own existence by not
again sending a T-800 to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor nor does John have to worry about being erased if he doesn't send Reese. In fact, in neither of the two timelines he exists in does the son of Kyle Reese have to send his father back in time. So potentially, and most intriguingly - John will not only meet his dad as Uncle Bob says he will, but they could go on to enjoy the remainder of their lives..at least until Kyle sees his son die of old age before he does.
I haven't thought of anything else to discuss from T2, problematic or otherwise, so skipping right to the end
Skynet gets wiped out; T-1000 and Uncle Bob melt into oblivion; no Judgment Day; and no Future War.
A truly unknown future rolls towards them.
For a final recap then - when watching T1 and T2 together it can be best approached with the understanding that 2 timelines have already played out and you're watching the 3rd timeline with parts of the others hinted at. Heck, if you're someone who has just never liked T2 you could look at this as the 2 timeline theory - the original timeline and the second which encompasses only the events of T1.
Alternatively you can reject this whole idea and stick with the filmmakers obvious intent about it being a paradox that just
is. Most of us have been content with that for 36 years. But if everything actually
can be unravelled and rationalized I feel like that's a better way to go because
The closed loop is something that not only doesn't work logically, but it deprives me of these characters having free will to follow through on the theme of the movies: There's no fate but what we make for ourselves.
I'm not willing to lose out on the *central theme* of the movies if in my mind I'm absolutely certain that a closed-loop single timeline would definitely lead to these characters losing any actual agency. I'm not willing to have these characters *always* acting out a pre-determined fate. I choose to leave the thematic intent in place rather than cling to the logistics that take away the free will of the heroes.
The movies kinda step on their own message a bit. T1 in particular seems to be insistent on the closed loop while if you also take into account the alternate, never filmed opening for T2 that I brought up before - where future John is fully aware that he must send back Reese and Uncle Bob -
because it's a loop, he already lived through the events we're about to be shown - so even if the movie omitted the whole demolition of Cyberdyne stuff, we would know that John obviously always survived anyway because, well, there he is - sending back Reese and Uncle Bob. Talk about diminishing the stakes.
The parallel open-ended timelines are therefore much more in keeping with 'No Fate'. Together with the correction of certain major paradoxes via the 3 timelines (and I
do now believe it has to be 3 to offer maximum consistency with what the movies present) I think I can agree with you ajp that this interpretation is more than worthwhile to compensate for whatever is lost. The main issue of contention against it seems to be any piece of dialogue that gives away Cameron/Wisher's intent about the Looping paradox - but in those instances I believe it's possible to call it mistaken presumption on the part of human characters.
.........................So whaddaya think?
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