The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

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... All I want is for them to close the loop and shoot the future war movie with Kyle Reese and grown up JC. They have the technology now so it could look pretty good ...

We've asked for that for many years. We want the future war. If you wanted, you could show Kyle growing up in the future, develop the story, show how the war evolved (part 1). Then (part 2), the adult Kyle, with JC, and the winning of the war.
 
You know what would have been crazy? If in response to John's death Sarah hunted down the Terminator that killed him and flatlined it. Then she takes its CPU and right arm and delivers it to whomever the next highest ranking guy at Miles Dyson's company was so that they could resume their work, *reinstate Judgment Day*, and then she lives through the hell of nuclear holocaust and the war against the machines just so that she can find that one T-800 that kills John in Mexico and destroy it *in the future* so that it never goes back in time.

Then she immediately gets kicked out of the loop because the first T-800, Reese, Uncle Bob, and the T-1000 all still go back in time, Judgment Day is averted *again*, and she reappears on that beach with John sipping pina coladas and living happily ever completely oblivious to what her alternate self did. Or they pull a DOFP and just say that she remembers everything for whatever reason and has this super big smile on her face as John walks back to her table, totally unharmed.


That would be fun to watch on screen.
 
"Whoa, hang on a second, Reese himself stated that he felt as if traveling through time was "like being born." :horror

And so what if what the technology actually does is to create a brand new living entity that essentially contains precognitive "memories" of a future and a life that doesn't actually exist. So that according to the universe 1984 Reese springs into existence as something akin to Rachael from Blade Runner with memories of a life that the universe itself does not recognize. Or rather "no longer recognizes" as it pertains to time travelers in Terminator.

And since Reese is a fully formed new creation that was "born" out of bright light and pain he therefore cannot create a paradox by killing his own parents before he is born because technically they are *not* his parents. Nu-Reese is a day old man with 25 years of fake memories while original Reese "died" the moment he stepped into the TDE and for all intents and purposes got vaporized. Holy crap I don't know if anyone is still with me but this discussion has forced me to consider elements that haven't occurred to me in decades of pondering these films, lol. :thud:"

Kyle vaporized... I can't buy into that theory. The TDE creates "new Kyle" out of what exactly?

"So in short TDE is a big universal "rewind machine" that does NOT send *anyone* back in time but only creates clones of future beings with the memories/programming of the latter transposed into the former."

I can't buy into this idea. It doesn't explain a Terminator's travel back in time, or are you implying that they too are "cloned." Not logical. Not trying to fight you on this, your thoughts just don't cover the non-living elements that go through the TDE. Also, if Kyle was "cloned", his body wouldn't have scars from the future. His body would be perfect, undamaged. Maybe, but I still can't swallow it, future Kyle's "vaporization" allows the "clone" to be reconstructed from those "vaporized" atoms?

That's why I said "cloned/3D printed." The 3D printed aspect would apply to the non-living elements of the T-800. As for "out of what" well it would be out of the molecules of those entering the TDE, whether they be living or non-living beings. They would indeed be duplicates, right down to the molecules, memories, programming, and yes, even battle scars. It's an out there concept to be sure, and not one that I'm married to by any means, but I just got a kick out of entertaining the idea so I thought I'd share.

I think I still hold to the notion that there's just a single universe that can be overwritten by time travelers. So yes there would have been an "original" untainted timeline that led to all of the future events, then a new timeline that is created when the T-800 and Reese first go back. And that first new timeline would *not* have involved that one specific polaroid of Sarah (since the polaroid caught her at a moment of thinking about Reese, and he created timeline #2.) Therefore the endless loop timeline would actually be timeline #3, the one that involves not only the T-800, Reese, but also the photo. Once those three co-exist in the same timeline then we get the loop as shown on screen.

That would be fun to watch on screen.

I agree! :duff
 
Outside of Star Wars the Terminator franchise is probably the one I've given the single most thought to and had the most enjoyable conversations about both with friends in real life and online. :)

The amount of time I've spent thinking about Star Wars would have to be divided by about a million to get to the next-closest IP. I think I've literally forgotten more about SW than I ever knew about any other franchise.

But yeah, Terminator was probably the next-most interesting for me to think about. Well, until Genisys; I shut the franchise off *completely* right after watching that one. Didn't watch Dark Fate until recently, and it had nuggets of "what could've been" that restarted my engagement with the franchise.

I wish that I had clarified right from the beginning what I meant by "singular timeline and universe." To me it meant one single "reality" but I also see it as a single reality that can be erased and rewritten so to speak.

Maybe a better way for me to have described it would have been for me to say that the Time Displacement Equipment allows those placed inside to temporarily step outside of time itself while the rest of the universe "rewinds" apart from them. Then when the "rewinding" is done they get to re-enter the one single physical reality and manipulate things however they see fit. Maybe the process of Time Displacement clones only the *traveler* and not the whole universe.

Whoa, hang on a second, Reese himself stated that he felt as if traveling through time was "like being born." :horror

And so what if what the technology actually does is to create a brand new living entity that essentially contains precognitive "memories" of a future and a life that doesn't actually exist. So that according to the universe 1984 Reese springs into existence as something akin to Rachael from Blade Runner with memories of a life that the universe itself does not recognize. Or rather "no longer recognizes" as it pertains to time travelers in Terminator.

And since Reese is a fully formed new creation that was "born" out of bright light and pain he therefore cannot create a paradox by killing his own parents before he is born because technically they are *not* his parents. Nu-Reese is a day old man with 25 years of fake memories while original Reese "died" the moment he stepped into the TDE and for all intents and purposes got vaporized. Holy crap I don't know if anyone is still with me but this discussion has forced me to consider elements that haven't occurred to me in decades of pondering these films, lol. :thud:

Now I'm thinking that the secret of TDE is that it rewinds the universe while simultaneously killing whoever enters it and then projecting those individuals' memories/programming into new "3D printed" clones of said individuals that then appear the moment the universe stops rewinding. With the end result allowing beings to spring out of the air that are *not* from the future but only have *visions* of "one possible future." How interesting that aside from the prologue with the opening text that the only times we see the "future war" in the first Terminator film is through the perspective of Reese imagining it in his head and always from his point of view. And even the prologue footage is reused in one of his big "flashbacks" (which isn't really a flashback at all but a planted "memory.")

Believe it or not, most of what you're describing up to this point is what would happen with time travel using alternate timelines. Something like memories that wouldn't match the timeline would still be true. The key element that is also the same is how a time-traveler can't create a paradox by killing his parents before they had kids; that's also very much the case with the parallel timelines scenario.

The cloning aspect is where you distinguish your version conceptually, but it doesn't really change anything in terms of the practical end result. The original time-traveler being killed and reborn during the time jump doesn't materially change anything as far as I can tell. Using parallel timeline theory, he would still be missing in his original future (barring a return trip back, which Terminator time travel prevents), and would exist in a variant version of his past memories.

So in short TDE is a big universal "rewind machine" that does NOT send *anyone* back in time but only creates clones of future beings with the memories/programming of the latter transposed into the former. And what if, just what if (forgive me, I'm really going off the rails here) the TDE "rewind machine" was invented in...1984??? And the machine itself can't undo anything prior to its *own* existence and Skynet merely discovered the device but didn't really invent it. So it had a bit of a contained timeframe that it could rewind events to and chose the farthest back it could go for the first Terminator (1984) and then systematically picked 1995 as a contingency. And the device itself has some sort of energy field around it that allows itself to download an awareness of the universe around it that it can then rewind as if it were a glorified VHS tape, lol.

I need to wrap my head around this, but I can tell you that I love the idea of putting a "barrier" on how far back in time an individual can go. That's just awesome as a story device by limiting backward time travel to no further than when the time-travel device was created. I ****ing love that! Not sure I can accept it in Terminator, but it needs to be written in some story somewhere if it hasn't already.

My initial resistance to it in Terminator is just that there's no indication in either film that the TDE was invented in 1984. Doesn't mean it can't work as a concept, but I've spent so long defaulting to the idea of time travel being developed via Skynet of the 21st century. I still need to chew on this for a while, and rewatch T1 and T2 with all of it in mind, but it's definitely a very cool idea on its own.

I really hope that you say the same about this latest one, lol, though I fear that my whole line of thinking may just be too "out there" on this one. But it might be the best scenario I can come up with that allows a singular universe with one alterable timeline and no paradoxes. I look forward to what you see as the pros and cons of my thoughts and logic on this one.

As I said above, your explanation was consistent with parallel timeline theory until the last paragraph. I think how you're keeping it from being the same is that you're saying that the timeline Kyle Reese came from in 2029 ceases to exist because it's entirely re-written by Nu-Reese necessitating new events by being part of a "new past." The problem for me, however, is that the T-800, T-1000, and Uncle Bob will end up *all* joining the Nu-Reese reality. But if Nu-Reese immediately erased that future, who/what sends them?

If original Reese's history gets erased as soon as he arrives in 1984, then I'm not understanding how future arrivals get there too. Where and when did they come from? And even if they're sent only seconds apart, wouldn't they each be "re-erasing" a section of timeline that was already erased by Nu-Reese?

Seems to me it's still the same problem that a more conventional single linear timeline runs into. You still need an ongoing fixed future from which these time travelers can be sent. And the conditions that motivate them being sent need to still occur the same way. If you can resolve that issue for me, I'd have no other objections to your version of tweaking Cameron's single-timeline Terminator reality.

I hope what I'm saying is clear. I love where you ended up (from a conceptual design perspective), but I don't see how it would work for the Terminator 1 & 2 plots to unfold as they did. I still think alternate timelines is the only way to make sense of it, so that's what I continue to default to.

And I so appreciate being able to disagree on aspects of the story while still respecting the other person's appreciation and perspective on said story. If only more people in the SW threads could be so capable, lol. ;)

It can't happen with Star Wars discussions because the debates got to a point where opposing views became almost a territorial or tribal battle. But even in spite of that, SW discussions will always be where I gravitate to whenever possible.

But as far as this particular Terminator discussion, it's got me more engaged with this franchise than I've been in several years. So thanks to both you and a-dev for that. And speaking of a-dev, I'm about to reply to his post with how I see parallel timelines working in these movies as the optimum way for everything to make the most sense. Maybe it'll even help make it clearer to you why I can't accept any version of just a single timeline.
 
Skynet sends the T-800 back to 1984. This can have no impact on the present 2029 reality of the prime timeline and instead it instantly sets up a new branching off point. Without intervention from the Resistance he kills Sarah Connor in this timeline. This becomes the new reality of that timeline, it is the thing that happens.

What confuses me though relates to what Khev said about each time traveller setting up his own unrelated timeline - how and why is it a given that Kyle Reese will reach the same branch timeline that T-800 went to...or more accurately 'created' with his presence? Why wouldn't Reese merely be going back to the original unaltered 1984 (which still exists, it didn't get erased or overwritten) where Sarah Connor was in no danger and then setting up another branching timeline of his own? (so 3 timelines - the original/the T-800 going to 1984/Kyle Reese going to 1984) He has to reach the particular one the T-800 went to otherwise his going back in time is pointless.




Seems to me what you're talking about here is a requirement right from the off, not just with the T-1000 and Uncle Bob. The technical workings of this fictional Time Traveling invention has to enable zoning in on a particular timeline branch. Most particularly from John and the resistance's POV. For Skynet it doesn't matter so much because as we've already been talking about it will be satisfied with erasing John Connor and propagating itself in whatever timeline and as many timelines as possible. For example it wouldn't care if the T-800 and T-1000 were operating in completely separate timeline branches from eachother..the more the merrier really.....right? :lol But JC has to care. He has to know Reese and Uncle Bob are getting where and when they're supposed to.

I have a caveat that I want to preface with before I give my explanation to the part of your post that I put in bold. This is my caveat: It makes more sense to me if John sent Kyle Reese to a point in 1984 that precedes the arrival of the T-800, and we just see their two arrivals out of order on screen. But since Arnold is shown first, I'll reformat my thinking for this reply so that it lines up with movie chronology (and also probably how you see the sequence of events yourself). Okay, so here goes.

Every mission to the past that originates from the 2029 timeline would be sent in the "direction" of that same timeline's past. But as soon as the first subject (T-800) arrives in 1984, that event immediately creates a parallel branch because the original version of 1984 never had a Terminator in it. So, the T-800 creates a branched timeline that shares the exact same history up until 1984. Everything beyond that is open-ended and doesn't need to conform to any pre-determined future.

The next time disruption takes place when Kyle Reese arrives shortly thereafter (though that's kinda crazy on John's part). Reese would also be sent in the direction of the 2029 timeline's past, but would also need to occupy a separate branch from his original one because it had no adult Reese existing in 1984. However, I don't think this event would need to create a third timeline. That's because T-800 already created one with an *unwritten future.* So Reese would get slotted right into that same branched one since it would be the closest available variant with an open-ended future that he could be part of.

The same would then be true of Uncle Bob and the T-1000. Since the new second timeline would have no history yet for its 1995, both of them would be slotted in there as well. What we're left with is just TWO (I had previously thought it'd be three) timelines. The original one with John and Kyle in the resistance fighting the 21st century war; and a second one branched off where T-800 arrives in 1984. This same second timeline would proceed in 1984 with Kyle Reese showing up, then eventually Uncle Bob and the T-1000 in 1995. Think of it as the TDE "searching" for the closest approximate timeline with space available to place its traveler. In T1 and T2, we only need one branched timeline for all of them to fit in.

Believe it or not, that's the simplest I can make it. :lol Like I said in my reply to Khev, I cannot reconcile the events of the first two movies with the single linear timeline that James Cameron was trying to establish. It ends up in paradoxes and other faulty logic that can't be resolved. The multiple parallel timelines solves those discrepancies for me. Timeline plot holes in movies like BTTF and Looper can't be resolved because they go too far trying to push the (impossible) single timeline scenario. Terminator, however, leaves room for multiverse repairs - even if the intention was contrary by seeking to convey a single timeline.
 
I really hope that you say the same about this latest one, lol, though I fear that my whole line of thinking may just be too "out there" on this one. But it might be the best scenario I can come up with that allows a singular universe with one alterable timeline and no paradoxes. I look forward to what you see as the pros and cons of my thoughts and logic on this one.

I still need to chew on this for a while, and rewatch T1 and T2 with all of it in mind, but it's definitely a very cool idea on its own.

I went ahead and rewatched the first two Terminator films while trying to make your version of the single timeline work. Even though the discussion here seems finished, I want to just provide this "epilogue." Your scenario would work pretty damn well for T1, so long as everything after Kyle Reese arrives in 1984 becomes a closed-loop reality with predestined outcomes and no true free will (putting "no fate but what we make" in an unfortunate context, however).

I do prefer your idea of Kyle dying and being cloned (or something similar) during time displacement. Even though it has no practical effect on the events in the movie, it's still better conceptually because it does avoid certain paradox potentialities. The conceptual benefits still improve the internal logic even though the scenarios never play out on screen.

But T2 is where there's no reconciling the single timeline. When everyone is at Miles Dyson's house, Uncle Bob is describing future events to him. Dyson says, "You're judging me on things that I haven't even done yet." Before that, Uncle Bob tells Sarah that Dyson will create a revolutionary type of microprocessor "a few months from now." So... with Dyson's death, there can be no closed-loop timeline that would lead to the same history of Uncle Bob's timeline.

In order for the single timeline to work with T2, Uncle Bob would have to have been a double agent of some sort. He'd have to be intentionally lying about the true future, knowing the whole time that Dyson actually does die in that era. Cyberdyne/Skynet would have to have a backup off-site facility where someone else takes over from where Dyson left off. It just gets too weird. Again, alternate/parallel timelines is the only way to go. But I'll drop it now. :)

But Khev, if you're inclined at all to write (or otherwise produce) stories, I think you've got the seeds of something great in your time travel scenario. Lots of ways you could go with it which I don't think have been done before; at least not that I can recall. Great concepts, imo. :duff
 
I've actually been working on a post today in response to your last one but got distracted by a shiny new toy that I received. I'm liking your idea more and more but there's a couple of things I'll be running by you when I eventually get the time to finish my thoughts.
 
I went ahead and rewatched the first two Terminator films while trying to make your version of the single timeline work. Even though the discussion here seems finished, I want to just provide this "epilogue." Your scenario would work pretty damn well for T1, so long as everything after Kyle Reese arrives in 1984 becomes a closed-loop reality with predestined outcomes and no true free will (putting "no fate but what we make" in an unfortunate context, however).

I do prefer your idea of Kyle dying and being cloned (or something similar) during time displacement. Even though it has no practical effect on the events in the movie, it's still better conceptually because it does avoid certain paradox potentialities. The conceptual benefits still improve the internal logic even though the scenarios never play out on screen.

But T2 is where there's no reconciling the single timeline. When everyone is at Miles Dyson's house, Uncle Bob is describing future events to him. Dyson says, "You're judging me on things that I haven't even done yet." Before that, Uncle Bob tells Sarah that Dyson will create a revolutionary type of microprocessor "a few months from now." So... with Dyson's death, there can be no closed-loop timeline that would lead to the same history of Uncle Bob's timeline.

In order for the single timeline to work with T2, Uncle Bob would have to have been a double agent of some sort. He'd have to be intentionally lying about the true future, knowing the whole time that Dyson actually does die in that era. Cyberdyne/Skynet would have to have a backup off-site facility where someone else takes over from where Dyson left off. It just gets too weird. Again, alternate/parallel timelines is the only way to go. But I'll drop it now. :)

But Khev, if you're inclined at all to write (or otherwise produce) stories, I think you've got the seeds of something great in your time travel scenario. Lots of ways you could go with it which I don't think have been done before; at least not that I can recall. Great concepts, imo. :duff

Hey thanks and that's awesome to hear that you entertained my musings enough to rewatch both films with them in mind! :hi5:

Yes I know that everything is cleaner if you just take T1 by itself. I actually have been one of the harsher critics on how T2 sort of messed up the perfect loop presented by T1 over the years and have even gone on record as discarding it from "canon" on more than one occasion. But it is a great sequel in its own right so I can never permanently forsake it. ;)

When I am charitable and accepting of T2 then I tend to just say that the endless loop resides with regard to Reese and the original T-800 only and that the events of T2 kind of demand a Terminator 3 that reinstates Judgment Day. For that reason I much prefer the ambiguous "dark highway at night" ending to the alternate one where Sarah sits on a park bench stating point blank that the war never happened.

I guess to keep the closed loop then we'd have to assume that there is some kind of cover up within Cyberdyne (no great stretch since it is already established that that's how they operate) where after everything is destroyed there's some sort of backup server that is discovered so that Dyson's work can continue and the company records (that Skynet later gets access to) for whatever reason still name him as the one who creates the revolutionary processor a few months after the events of T2.

I do realize that your approach to the mechanics of time travel in these films is more "Professor Hulk" compared to my "Rhodey" explanations but I find myself appreciating the story and the stakes more if I give a fair amount of leeway to the science of it all. Kind of like to enjoy giant monster movies you have to ignore things like whether their muscles and bones could really support weight of that magnitude, or sound in space (even in semi-"realistic" sci-fi like ALIEN or what have you.)

And I don't mean that to be a copout, it's just my approach. I love the challenge of trying rationalize my take on these films through the lens of your hardened scientific expectations. Great stuff and thanks again for the kind words and humoring my scenarios. :duff
 
I guess to keep the closed loop then we'd have to assume that there is some kind of cover up within Cyberdyne (no great stretch since it is already established that that's how they operate) where after everything is destroyed there's some sort of backup server that is discovered so that Dyson's work can continue and the company records (that Skynet later gets access to) for whatever reason still name him as the one who creates the revolutionary processor a few months after the events of T2.

If you ever want to extend that into some version of a closed loop that includes T2, use the scene in the extended edition where Miles Dyson's wife is pointing out that he's neglecting his family. He turns off the computer so they can go to the water park. Maybe he would've abandoned his work anyway. That's the sort of thing that Cyberdyne couldn't afford to have happen, so they'd have someone else following backups of Dyson's work. When he died, they could've given him the credit for developing the neural net processor. In Skynet's (and thus Uncle Bob's) detailed records, maybe the only relevant data about Dyson is what he was credited with at work; and his date of death gets overlooked, or just isn't deemed relevant.

I don't know. Like I said, it just gets too weird and strained to try to make it fit a closed-loop reality. At least for me.

I do realize that your approach to the mechanics of time travel in these films is more "Professor Hulk" compared to my "Rhodey" explanations but I find myself appreciating the story and the stakes more if I give a fair amount of leeway to the science of it all. Kind of like to enjoy giant monster movies you have to ignore things like whether their muscles and bones could really support weight of that magnitude, or sound in space (even in semi-"realistic" sci-fi like ALIEN or what have you.)

I use the looser approach for movies like BTTF and Looper. Any "scientific" sort of approach to the logic in those would utterly destroy any enjoyment. :lol

But Terminator leaves enough room (minus the polaroid and maybe one or two other examples) for me to enjoy it on every level. The alternate timeline explanation keeps all the fun of the movies, plus I get to maintain a sense of "realism" about the plot.

And I don't mean that to be a copout, it's just my approach. I love the challenge of trying rationalize my take on these films through the lens of your hardened scientific expectations. Great stuff and thanks again for the kind words and humoring my scenarios. :duff

No thanks needed, and no "humoring" at all. I genuinely have a high regard for the ideas you put forth and am quite serious that there's an awesome fleshed-out story waiting to be told from the seeds of what you laid out. And thinking about it did give me a new way to approach the films, and that's always appreciated. :duff
 
It can't happen with Star Wars discussions because the debates got to a point where opposing views became almost a territorial or tribal battle. But even in spite of that, SW discussions will always be where I gravitate to whenever possible.

But as far as this particular Terminator discussion, it's got me more engaged with this franchise than I've been in several years. So thanks to both you and a-dev for that. And speaking of a-dev, I'm about to reply to his post with how I see parallel timelines working in these movies as the optimum way for everything to make the most sense. Maybe it'll even help make it clearer to you why I can't accept any version of just a single timeline.

Cheers to that.

I have a caveat that I want to preface with before I give my explanation to the part of your post that I put in bold. This is my caveat: It makes more sense to me if John sent Kyle Reese to a point in 1984 that precedes the arrival of the T-800, and we just see their two arrivals out of order on screen. But since Arnold is shown first, I'll reformat my thinking for this reply so that it lines up with movie chronology (and also probably how you see the sequence of events yourself). Okay, so here goes.

Yeah I thought of that myself. I guess the reason we see Arnie first is because his was the title character but it does make more sense for the Resistance to try to give Reese a headstart at finding Sarah - especially when he has to fit a nap in! Remember that? He has himself a lie-down in the car. Only after that does he go looking for her. :lol I know he had the advantage of having more specific information about Sarah and what she looked like than the T-800 did but still...

Every mission to the past that originates from the 2029 timeline would be sent in the "direction" of that same timeline's past. But as soon as the first subject (T-800) arrives in 1984, that event immediately creates a parallel branch because the original version of 1984 never had a Terminator in it. So, the T-800 creates a branched timeline that shares the exact same history up until 1984. Everything beyond that is open-ended and doesn't need to conform to any pre-determined future.

The next time disruption takes place when Kyle Reese arrives shortly thereafter (though that's kinda crazy on John's part). Reese would also be sent in the direction of the 2029 timeline's past, but would also need to occupy a separate branch from his original one because it had no adult Reese existing in 1984. However, I don't think this event would need to create a third timeline. That's because T-800 already created one with an *unwritten future.* So Reese would get slotted right into that same branched one since it would be the closest available variant with an open-ended future that he could be part of.

The same would then be true of Uncle Bob and the T-1000. Since the new second timeline would have no history yet for its 1995, both of them would be slotted in there as well. What we're left with is just TWO
(I had previously thought it'd be three) timelines. The original one with John and Kyle in the resistance fighting the 21st century war; and a second one branched off where T-800 arrives in 1984. This same second timeline would proceed in 1984 with Kyle Reese showing up, then eventually Uncle Bob and the T-1000 in 1995. Think of it as the TDE "searching" for the closest approximate timeline with space available to place its traveler. In T1 and T2, we only need one branched timeline for all of them to fit in.

Firstly let me say I like the idea of the TDE searching for the closest open-ended timeline and placing each of the time travellers into that single parallel timeline. Feels like - for that to happen - there's some technical macguffinery about the TDE and/or about how it would work were time travel into the past actually possible but since we're talking about science fiction and largely theoretical concepts I find this acceptable.

Basically what you're doing is trying to allow the 'present day' parts of T1 and T2 to play out in their own single timeline while eliminating the looping aspect with the 2029 future that we see in the films. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no looping at all now in your idea. There's the original timeline and only one parallel timeline starting from a new version of 1984. And we're not watching the second or third or fourth iteration of anything which was a suggestion before - what we're seeing is the new one and only alternate timeline. The potential of it is that it would solve the main paradoxes of time travel logic while very much preserving ''no fate but what we make''. The future would definitely not be set in this other timeline and either Skynet or the Resistance could win depending on the outcomes of these battles in our present - it means it was not a given that Reese could successfully protect Sarah from the Terminator. And when the 1984 T-800 fails to kill Sarah it's all to play for once again when the T-1000 shows up 1995. The stakes are real. And the related matter of 'incentive' to engage in this time travel war was settled as far as I'm concerned in our previous posts.

I think it deals with most of Khev's objections in his post a couple of pages back. Here's a recap of his main points

2. T1 and T2 together show the same woman (Sarah Connor) witnessing not one, not two, not three, but *four* separate time travelers all enter her same reality (first T-800, Reese, Uncle Bob, and T-1000.) If you subscribe to the multiverse theory then what she saw should have been impossible because each time traveler should have created a new parallel reality when they went back in time, totally distinct and separate from one another

Settled.

3. I do agree that having these fragmented battles taking place across parallel universes does indeed diminish the stakes and impact of *all* of those battles.

Settled

1. Sarah's polaroid. That's a big one right there and IMO Cameron's shorthand to the audience that we are to take all the events shown on screen as existing in one singular timeline and universe. It's the measurable constant that bridges the reality of what we see take place in 1984 with Reese's flashbacks in 2029. The fact that that photo is exactly the same in both periods shows that the Reese who grows up in the ashes of nuclear fire and witnesses the first T-800 being sent through time is indeed the same Reese who fathers the John Connor of that same reality.

Hmmm. You've sorta handwaved it and I don't even mind. Why not allow one ridiculous coincidence that she ends up in the same place at the same time, wearing the same outfit, with the same dog, having her photo taken by the same kid from exactly the same angle and lighting conditions etc etc across 2 separate timelines. :lol

4. And lastly I just don't like the idea of a multiverse in a semi-realistic setting because it demands an atheistic world view. No way in a universe with an all-powerful and infinite God and an eternal heaven and hell surrounding a finite physical universe confined by the bounds of time can people just develop technology, no matter how advanced, that let's them create entire universes, thus duplicating not only all of creation and all living beings' "souls" but God Himself! And yes I realize that that is simply a personal preference based on my own world view and would be a moot issue for many on this forum.

Well I come from an atheistic POV myself but I dunno, does the parallel timeline have to mean that God, heaven and hell were also duplicated? I wouldn't say so necessarily.

So ajp, although I'm intrigued by your idea for the above reasons I will first make mention of what we're losing by taking that interpretation over what is actually intended by Cameron and Wisher. In getting rid of the paradoxes, it does deprive the films of something that has long appealed to people about this franchise.

- We're sacrificing the idea of John Connor's father being born after him and John knowingly sending Reese back to the past to conceive him with Sarah...and to die. The hypothetical future war movie that so many have long craved instantly loses a major dramatic element - heck, Reese won't even be the father of this version of future John - your idea necessitates the acceptance of the 'original John Connor' theory, right? - although a version of it with less gobsmacking implications because in your idea the original John won't be erased by Kyle - his timeline carries on and he will live out the remainder of his life. Only in the new alternate timeline will he no longer exist because Reese will substitute in for whoever Sarah originally conceived a child with.

- We lose the idea of Skynet coming to be by means of its own Terminator - I can more easily live with that - there's no drama there, more just a neat little ''huh'' component of T1 and T2.

- There's also stuff that wasn't filmed but which might aswell be canon as far as many fans are concerned - such as the alternate T2 opening which spent longer in the 2029 future - I think it was supposed to show, among other things, John going into the room with the row of T-800s and 'recognizing' his Uncle Bob - now this would not be the case because original John can't have known Uncle Bob. And this John will not be the same one that Uncle Bob is protecting in the second timeline (that's going to be important later)

So given the loss of these long-cherished gee whiz discussion points not everyone would be on board with your idea. Nevertheless, being able to make logical sense of things I've always just had to throw my hands up in the air for is appealing to me. And if it's not what Cameron and Wisher intended, well - ever since Alien Resurrection, the Star Wars PT and Terminator 3:ROTM - I've very much been subscribing to the idea of personal canon so it can come under that blanket - if it can really work.

But can it. Does what's presented in T1 and T2 allow it to? Khev brought up the polaroid - but also certain lines of dialogue might not let us get rid of the time looping

So what are (some examples of) those?



''Who sent you?''

*turns head to look at John* ''You did. 35 years from now you reprogram me to be your protector here, in this time''


But this John didn't send the T-800 in your idea, right? This John is Kyle Reese's son where your idea suggests that Uncle Bob was sent by Original John - if I interpreted it correctly. And yet....and yet - when T-800 first sights John riding the bike in the canal he instantly recognizes him as his 'target'. So he had a picture of Edward Furlong on file? I guess the Voights could have shown him the same picture they end up giving to the T-1000 but that seems unlikely because he (T-800) was a complete stranger to them and they were suspicious of him. So if you rule that out you're forced to say that future John uploaded an image of himself to the T-800's memory...but then it shouldn't have looked like Edward Furlong, it shoulda been a picture of some other kid.....you might see the problem here.

Furthermore, if Skynet knows how time travel to the past works - if it knows it's dealing with parallel timelines - then likewise Uncle Bob should know this....and yet here he is talking to a version of John he shouldn't recognize, speaking like as though it is certain to happen that '35 years from now' John will send him to this time.

There's something similar later on - ''I wish I could have met my real dad''....''you will''....''I guess...when I'm 45 I think..I send him back in time to 1984..he hasn't even been born yet....messes with your head'' this exchange doesn't feel like it jibes with the parallel timeline idea. Because again, your idea dictates that it wasn't Furlong's John that sends Reese back and here's young Furlong John seemingly expecting that he will do this down the line. And unless John and/or Sarah filled Uncle Bob in on the whole Kyle Reese, soldier from 2029, being John's father situation, the T-800 shouldn't know about it so him saying ''you will'' (meet him one day) doesn't work. And if the line from T-800 is meant to be loaded with the additional implication that John will meet Reese AND send him back in time then that means T-800 is referring to the Loop paradox and contradicting the idea that this is a parallel timeline without a set future yet.

Sigh.....It does indeed mess with your head so I think I'll call it quits for now and see what you think of these points so far.


But T2 is where there's no reconciling the single timeline. When everyone is at Miles Dyson's house, Uncle Bob is describing future events to him. Dyson says, "You're judging me on things that I haven't even done yet." Before that, Uncle Bob tells Sarah that Dyson will create a revolutionary type of microprocessor "a few months from now." So... with Dyson's death, there can be no closed-loop timeline that would lead to the same history of Uncle Bob's timeline.

Well, per my stuff above, I wonder if in fact T2 makes it harder to apply your parallel timeline theory. I wish it weren't so. I was honestly gutted when I thought of the problems I've raised here.
 
4. And lastly I just don't like the idea of a multiverse in a semi-realistic setting because it demands an atheistic world view. No way in a universe with an all-powerful and infinite God and an eternal heaven and hell surrounding a finite physical universe confined by the bounds of time can people just develop technology, no matter how advanced, that let's them create entire universes, thus duplicating not only all of creation and all living beings' "souls" but God Himself! And yes I realize that that is simply a personal preference based on my own world view and would be a moot issue for many on this forum.

So coming from a Catholic upbringing (although I do come at it at a more atheistic POV now too), I don't think the concept of a multiverse should automatically preclude the idea of an all-powerful and infinite God, because such a being would probably not be confined to the constraints of a universe. He could exist as the same entity across different multiverses.

Also, one of the main takeaways (at least in Catholicism) is that this God loves humanity enough to give it free-will and the ability to choose its own destiny. If that were the case, a closed timeloop would be more deterministic, meaning the inhabitants of that "universe" would have an unavoidable fate ahead (future is written). A multiverse at least creates a possibility where your choices create a different potential outcome so free will is sort of allowed.
 
Original John theory really makes it screwy the more I think of it. Original John might not even know the Voights. The only commonality in his life with that of Furlong John Connor might be the same mother - Sarah Connor. And original John would have no idea what she got up to in a new timeline that he didn't experience. So when he's programming the T-800 before sending him to 1995 what information can he even provide? The info he does provide will potentially be completely misleading and inaccurate, even - as I mentioned in my last post - down to what kid the T-800 is looking for. He won't know that he was replaced by a completely different person as 'John Connor' in a new timeline
MZ2D13D.gif
 
Yeah I thought of that myself. I guess the reason we see Arnie first is because his was the title character but it does make more sense for the Resistance to try to give Reese a headstart at finding Sarah - especially when he has to fit a nap in! Remember that? He has himself a lie-down in the car. Only after that does he go looking for her. :lol I know he had the advantage of having more specific information about Sarah and what she looked like than the T-800 did but still...

:lol :lol :lol

Reese taking a nap just shows what a badass he is. And he was deep enough into it for REM sleep and dreaming. :lol

In a past he never knew; occupying a stolen vehicle; firearm in his possession; a terminator on the loose . . . and yet Kyle Reese is cool, calm, and collected enough to get some shuteye. :yess:

Yeah, I prefer to think he got to 1984 first. There are plenty of examples out there of movies using nonlinear storytelling and expecting the audience to be able to figure it out. Even if that wasn't Cameron's intent in this case, it makes way more sense, so that's how I've interpreted the sequence of events.

Firstly let me say I like the idea of the TDE searching for the closest open-ended timeline and placing each of the time travellers into that single parallel timeline. Feels like - for that to happen - there's some technical macguffinery about the TDE and/or about how it would work were time travel into the past actually possible but since we're talking about science fiction and largely theoretical concepts I find this acceptable.

The rules governing reality have revealed themselves to be efficient even if they seemed convoluted when they were initially discovered. Time travel via parallel timelines might someday prove the same. And even the movie term "time displacement" can refer to the process of taking the traveler into the most approximate timeline (the "closest" branch) from his own original one which he could occupy without any paradox. It's certainly plausible, imo.

Basically what you're doing is trying to allow the 'present day' parts of T1 and T2 to play out in their own single timeline while eliminating the looping aspect with the 2029 future that we see in the films. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no looping at all now in your idea. There's the original timeline and only one parallel timeline starting from a new version of 1984. And we're not watching the second or third or fourth iteration of anything which was a suggestion before - what we're seeing is the new one and only alternate timeline. The potential of it is that it would solve the main paradoxes of time travel logic while very much preserving ''no fate but what we make''. The future would definitely not be set in this other timeline and either Skynet or the Resistance could win depending on the outcomes of these battles in our present - it means it was not a given that Reese could successfully protect Sarah from the Terminator. And when the 1984 T-800 fails to kill Sarah it's all to play for once again when the T-1000 shows up 1995. The stakes are real. And the related matter of 'incentive' to engage in this time travel war was settled as far as I'm concerned in our previous posts.

Correct. In the scenario you're replying to, I am defining the first timeline as being the "prime" one from which the other gets created via branching. The prime one is set and unchangeable because there are no time travel alterations made to it. It is the "pure" one from which all others are branched due to time travel changes.

The second one (every time we see Sarah in the present day) is open-ended. Free will determines its course until the end of time. That's how we preserve John and Sarah's victory, and the possibility of avoiding nuclear holocaust and a future war.

Hmmm. You've sorta handwaved it and I don't even mind. Why not allow one ridiculous coincidence that she ends up in the same place at the same time, wearing the same outfit, with the same dog, having her photo taken by the same kid from exactly the same angle and lighting conditions etc etc across 2 separate timelines. :lol

Yeah, it's something where I don't mind suspending disbelief enough to allow the possibility that the photos would be almost identical had Kyle been replaced by John's alternate father in the original timeline.

I even had a silly thought rewatching T1 when it comes to this polaroid point. When Sarah is at that bar and sees the news report of a second murdered Sarah Connor, she heads for a payphone. Next to the phone is some awkward dude staring a hole through her. But she's in a panic at the time and is suspicious of everyone. Maybe Sarah in the original timeline gets approached by some guy at that bar, and because of not having any concerns about murdered women with her same name, she ends up sleeping with the guy on the same day and time she conceived John with Kyle. And maybe that dude was someone she needed to get away from 6 months later and fled to Mexico. Hey, it could happen. :lol

So ajp, although I'm intrigued by your idea for the above reasons I will first make mention of what we're losing by taking that interpretation over what is actually intended by Cameron and Wisher. In getting rid of the paradoxes, it does deprive the films of something that has long appealed to people about this franchise.

- We're sacrificing the idea of John Connor's father being born after him and John knowingly sending Reese back to the past to conceive him with Sarah...and to die. The hypothetical future war movie that so many have long craved instantly loses a major dramatic element - heck, Reese won't even be the father of this version of future John - your idea necessitates the acceptance of the 'original John Connor' theory, right? - although a version of it with less gobsmacking implications because in your idea the original John won't be erased by Kyle - his timeline carries on and he will live out the remainder of his life. Only in the new alternate timeline will he no longer exist because Reese will substitute in for whoever Sarah originally conceived a child with.

We do sacrifice this one no matter what.

- We lose the idea of Skynet coming to be by means of its own Terminator - I can more easily live with that - there's no drama there, more just a neat little ''huh'' component of T1 and T2.

I can fix this one, but at the expense of something else. More on that later.

- There's also stuff that wasn't filmed but which might aswell be canon as far as many fans are concerned - such as the alternate T2 opening which spent longer in the 2029 future - I think it was supposed to show, among other things, John going into the room with the row of T-800s and 'recognizing' his Uncle Bob - now this would not be the case because original John can't have known Uncle Bob. And this John will not be the same one that Uncle Bob is protecting in the second timeline (that's going to be important later)

Definitely a give and take. Obviously for me, what I have to give up is worth the benefit of what I gain by way of alternate timelines. The closed loop is something that not only doesn't work logically, but it deprives me of these characters having free will to follow through on the theme of the movies: There's no fate but what we make for ourselves.

I'm not willing to lose out on the *central theme* of the movies if in my mind I'm absolutely certain that a closed-loop single timeline would definitely lead to these characters losing any actual agency. I'm not willing to have these characters *always* acting out a pre-determined fate. I choose to leave the thematic intent in place rather than cling to the logistics that take away the free will of the heroes.

So given the loss of these long-cherished gee whiz discussion points not everyone would be on board with your idea. Nevertheless, being able to make logical sense of things I've always just had to throw my hands up in the air for is appealing to me. And if it's not what Cameron and Wisher intended, well - ever since Alien Resurrection, the Star Wars PT and Terminator 3:ROTM - I've very much been subscribing to the idea of personal canon so it can come under that blanket - if it can really work.

That's a good way of looking at it. :duff

But can it. Does what's presented in T1 and T2 allow it to? Khev brought up the polaroid - but also certain lines of dialogue might not let us get rid of the time looping

So what are (some examples of) those?



''Who sent you?''

*turns head to look at John* ''You did. 35 years from now you reprogram me to be your protector here, in this time''


But this John didn't send the T-800 in your idea, right? This John is Kyle Reese's son where your idea suggests that Uncle Bob was sent by Original John - if I interpreted it correctly. And yet....and yet - when T-800 first sights John riding the bike in the canal he instantly recognizes him as his 'target'. So he had a picture of Edward Furlong on file? I guess the Voights could have shown him the same picture they end up giving to the T-1000 but that seems unlikely because he (T-800) was a complete stranger to them and they were suspicious of him. So if you rule that out you're forced to say that future John uploaded an image of himself to the T-800's memory...but then it shouldn't have looked like Edward Furlong, it shoulda been a picture of some other kid.....you might see the problem here.

Furthermore, if Skynet knows how time travel to the past works - if it knows it's dealing with parallel timelines - then likewise Uncle Bob should know this....and yet here he is talking to a version of John he shouldn't recognize, speaking like as though it is certain to happen that '35 years from now' John will send him to this time.

There's something similar later on - ''I wish I could have met my real dad''....''you will''....''I guess...when I'm 45 I think..I send him back in time to 1984..he hasn't even been born yet....messes with your head'' this exchange doesn't feel like it jibes with the parallel timeline idea. Because again, your idea dictates that it wasn't Furlong's John that sends Reese back and here's young Furlong John seemingly expecting that he will do this down the line. And unless John and/or Sarah filled Uncle Bob in on the whole Kyle Reese, soldier from 2029, being John's father situation, the T-800 shouldn't know about it so him saying ''you will'' (meet him one day) doesn't work. And if the line from T-800 is meant to be loaded with the additional implication that John will meet Reese AND send him back in time then that means T-800 is referring to the Loop paradox and contradicting the idea that this is a parallel timeline without a set future yet.

Sigh.....It does indeed mess with your head so I think I'll call it quits for now and see what you think of these points so far.


I can fix all of these issues stemming from T2 (as I referenced earlier), but it would require the *three* timelines scenario that I had mentioned in earlier posts. My guess is that you wouldn't want a third timeline. All I'll say in its defense is that you'd eliminate these inconsistencies that you listed here while still having both movies interconnected (albeit not to a point where all current-day events are happening in the same timeline).

I'll leave it up to you. If you're willing to entertain three timelines, here's how it would work:

1.) A timeline where 1984 and 1995 have no visitors from the future. But when it gets to 2029, a T-800 (and Kyle Reese) travel back and end up creating a branched timeline with a new version of 1984.

2.) Identical to #1 up until May of 1984. That's when this one branches off because T-800 and Kyle Reese didn't exist in the 1984 of #1. The T-800 gets defeated; Kyle dies; and the T-800 CPU and arm end up leading Cyberdyne to develop Skynet differently than in timeline #1. No visitors arrive from the future during 1995. And when this timeline gets to 2029, Skynet sends a T-1000 (which is more advanced because Skynet itself is more advanced than in #1) to 1995 and John sends Uncle Bob.

3.) Identical to #2 up until 1995. Branches off from #2 at that point because T-1000 and Uncle Bob didn't exist in the 1995 of #2. Skynet gets wiped out; T-1000 and Uncle Bob melt into oblivion; no Judgment Day; and no Future War. John and Sarah either live however you want them to, or they end up how Dark Fate portrays them.

Well, per my stuff above, I wonder if in fact T2 makes it harder to apply your parallel timeline theory. I wish it weren't so. I was honestly gutted when I thought of the problems I've raised here.

I'd love to know where you end up on this. Either way, I appreciate the opportunity to explore the options and decide what scenario maximizes enjoyment of the first two films in a cooperative canon.
 
Somewhere between Invasion of the Body Snatchers and WW84 Steve Trevor return lies the perfect Terminator explanation

Damn Sarah raped some poor lucky dude lol

Uncle Bob...NOO!!
 
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Somewhere between Invasion of the Body Snatchers and WW84 Steve Trevor return lies the perfect Terminator explanation

Damn Sarah raped some poor lucky dude lol

Uncle Bob...NOO!!

Then they will call it the Sideshowcollectors Saga.
 
As the great Boromir once said, one does not simply come into this thread before your first cup of coffee! The level of discussion in here needs rep points all round. Great stuff everyone involved and now my brain hurts haha. I'm going to need to re-read some of this once my brain has turned on properly haha.
 
I can fix all of these issues stemming from T2 (as I referenced earlier), but it would require the *three* timelines scenario that I had mentioned in earlier posts. My guess is that you wouldn't want a third timeline. All I'll say in its defense is that you'd eliminate these inconsistencies that you listed here while still having both movies interconnected (albeit not to a point where all current-day events are happening in the same timeline).

I'll leave it up to you. If you're willing to entertain three timelines, here's how it would work:

1.) A timeline where 1984 and 1995 have no visitors from the future. But when it gets to 2029, a T-800 (and Kyle Reese) travel back and end up creating a branched timeline with a new version of 1984.

2.) Identical to #1 up until May of 1984. That's when this one branches off because T-800 and Kyle Reese didn't exist in the 1984 of #1. The T-800 gets defeated; Kyle dies; and the T-800 CPU and arm end up leading Cyberdyne to develop Skynet differently than in timeline #1. No visitors arrive from the future during 1995. And when this timeline gets to 2029, Skynet sends a T-1000 (which is more advanced because Skynet itself is more advanced than in #1) to 1995 and John sends Uncle Bob.

3.) Identical to #2 up until 1995. Branches off from #2 at that point because T-1000 and Uncle Bob didn't exist in the 1995 of #2. Skynet gets wiped out; T-1000 and Uncle Bob melt into oblivion; no Judgment Day; and no Future War. John and Sarah either live however you want them to, or they end up how Dark Fate portrays them.

Well I'm open to whatever makes it work, preferably in such a way that doesn't diminish the strengths of the concept that I previously praised it for and preferably such that doesn't cause new problems.

After much consideration I think you're really onto something - in my rundown below I think it can be shown that the third timeline does indeed allow for all present-day events taking place in one timeline (unless I misunderstood you in the part I underlined).


Before I get into it, it seems prudent first of all to add a reminder of what your general premise of time travel is

Every mission to the past that originates from the 2029 timeline would be sent in the "direction" of that same timeline's past. But as soon as the first subject (T-800) arrives in 1984, that event immediately creates a parallel branch because the original version of 1984 never had a Terminator in it. So, the T-800 creates a branched timeline that shares the exact same history up until 1984. Everything beyond that is open-ended and doesn't need to conform to any pre-determined future.

The next time disruption takes place when Kyle Reese arrives shortly thereafter (though that's kinda crazy on John's part). Reese would also be sent in the direction of the 2029 timeline's past, but would also need to occupy a separate branch from his original one because it had no adult Reese existing in 1984. However, I don't think this event would need to create a third timeline. That's because T-800 already created one with an *unwritten future.* So Reese would get slotted right into that same branched one since it would be the closest available variant with an open-ended future that he could be part of.

The rules governing reality have revealed themselves to be efficient even if they seemed convoluted when they were initially discovered. Time travel via parallel timelines might someday prove the same. And even the movie term "time displacement" can refer to the process of taking the traveler into the most approximate timeline (the "closest" branch) from his own original one which he could occupy without any paradox. It's certainly plausible, imo.

It's at least as valid as any other theory we've seen in movies and quite possibly moreso. I think I saw you say something like this in another post - the universe cannot permit a time-paradox. Its way of auto-correcting is parallel timelines.



Now I'm going to dive into your 3 timelines and see what describing them in more detail reveals. To be clear to anyone else reading, everything I'm saying originates from ajp's idea - some of my phrasing may make it seem like I'm pretending it was mine....


Timeline 1 - Since the point of this exercise is get rid of this notion of a perpetual time-loop paradox, the original timeline necessarily has to involve a John Connor who is not Kyle Reese's son. Some unknown guy conceived him with the Linda Hamilton Sarah Connor we know. She was indeed a waitress as of 1984 but presumably went on to other things of her own making and became the mother to a great, inspiring military leader. We of course see none of this. In fact the only parts of this timeline we see are the 2029 flashforwards in T1 (which I think you said in a previous post, ajp). The Reese we know from T1 came from here. Through circumstances we don't see he became known to, respected and personally liked by John - liked enough that John bequeaths to him something of personal importance, a picture of his mother.
Somewhat weird, it's an area this whole enterprise requires that we retcon a bit because some dialogue in the film implies that Reese realizes after-the-fact that in giving him the photograph John must have been deliberately setting him up to volunteer to go back in time - he thinks - just to protect Sarah (while John knows - also to become his father). For our purposes we have to forget that and invent some other reason John would give away a picture of his mum to one of his troops. Perhaps Kyle was at a low point and John was imparting an inspiring story about Sarah - trying to remind him of a world before, a world they were fighting to bring back. That Kyle would develop an infatuation with Sarah was not something John intended or foresaw nor does he know in advance that he will be sending Kyle back through time to protect her from a Terminator.

Ultimately, at the culmination of the war against the machines, they make the discovery of the TDE and Skynet's plot to erase John Connor from existence using an infiltrator T-800 sent to the year 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Skynet knows this action will not change the current reality in which it is defeated and doomed. However, the plan is that in a new timeline the T-800 will not only prevent John Connor from being born but it will reintegrate its memory with the Skynet that eventually arises there. The original Skynet will in this way be 'reborn' - and now into circumstances more favorable towards victory in the war.
To John Connor and the Resistance time travel is a whole new ballgame, no one knows for sure how this works but John reasons that they must respond to cover any possible scenario and then destroy the whole facility. Kyle Reese does not hesitate to volunteer. As John has a particular trust in Reese aswell as faith in his combat experience he agrees that it should be him. As planned, once Reese goes through they evacuate and blow up the complex. The war is now settled in this timeline. Everyone here lives happily ever after, whatever that can be.

I want to remind myself (and anyone else who's following this) how - in this 3 timeline theory - it no longer matters that Skynet sends the T-800 before the resistance manages to send Kyle Reese. In a single timeline scenario this should have been an unreconcilable paradox because the instant Skynet sent the T-800 back in time it should have been an immediate success. It would have arrived first and with no one there to stop him it would have killed Sarah Connor. The Terminator and its actions would automatically become part of the past from the 2029 perspective, so why then does John Connor still exist in the future to have the opportunity to then send back Reese? I previously deferred to some madeup rationale stolen from BTTF or Star Trek to ''explain'' it but ajp's idea does a better job. The original timeline always remains unaffected by any time travel into the past. The first T-800 immediately began the new branched timeline when he arrived in 1984 - he could have killed Sarah Connor except John Connor and the Resistance still existed in the unchanged original timeline and were in a position to do something about it. They send Kyle Reese. Per the time travel rules outlined in my ajp quotes above, Reese arrives in the same timeline as the T-800 and can go to work.

So the above is largely not actually seen in the movies. But now...

Timeline 2 - this is the first parallel branch off of the main timeline and it goes from T1's 1984 - uninterrupted by any further time travel incursions - all the way up to 2029 when Skynet eventually uses the TDE again - in fact for 'the first time' in this timeline.

Kyle Reese arrives, finds Sarah and flees with her from the T-800. At every opportunity he must explain to her what is to come - notably different under this theory is that when he is telling her about her son John Connor he is referring to ''original John'' - all the while, his infatuation with this young woman he previously only knew from a single photograph and John's stories quickly turns to love now that he's with her and the gravity of the whole situation impresses on them both. After everything he has been through in his life (and his celibacy) he can't help himself. If she's going to go for it so is he. And she goes for it. But does Kyle consider the possible consequences of having sex with Sarah Connor, the mother of the future? Lets remember he previously had no notion of himself being John's father. Sarah actually asks about the father and Kyle says ''John never said much about him...I know he dies before the wa-''. So he doesn't go into this situation thinking that it's him. Well, Kyle, you weren't the dad before but you will be now. I suppose it could be speculated that if they'd gotten a moments peace after that he would have been very concerned indeed about what he'd just done but from then on it's literally non-stop pursuit by the Terminator until Reese is killed.

At the film's conclusion we have Sarah making audio tapes for her unborn son, John.



Reese of course is the father but Sarah speaks as though he always had been. More than that she seems to be expecting that John will again have to send Reese back in time in order to maintain his own existence. She thinks it's a loop, her recent past and the future mutually dependent on eachother. For our purposes I guess we simply have to say that she's mistaken in this notion but it's not ideal. It's a dead giveaway of Cameron and Wisher's intentions when the central character of the movie is saying these things in the epilogue.

The deleted ending to T1 reveals that the factory where the final showdown with the Terminator took place was Cyberdyne - the remnants of the T-800 are being recovered and kept secret there. It's fair to say that even if there had been zero remnants to be discovered Skynet was still going to come into existence - albeit more within the original timeframe. But the T-800's damaged brain-chip and surviving mechanical parts will go on to be studied and it will expedite the development of Skynet under Miles B Dyson.

Meanwhile, Sarah Connor is raising John - Kyle Reese's son (the Furlong version) who in this timeline will have the same experiences as T2 movie John up until 1995 but will live a different life beyond that not seen in any film. Now knowing what she knows, Sarah is forcing John's development much sooner - ''Shacking up'' with whoever she could learn from to teach John how to be a ''Great Military Leader'', ''flying around in helicopters'', teaching him ''how to blow ***t up''* - all to prepare him for his role in the future war. It deprives him of a childhood and he resents it. When she embarks on a failed attempt to stop Cyberdyne in its tracks and gets locked up in Pescadero, John has little sympathy and seems to think she belongs there. He no longer believes anything she's been talking about. With her in the mental institute the Voights take over his parenting.

*how all this fit into John's mere 10 years of existence and how someone so young could actually have the maturity and aptitude for any of it is another thing. We've always just had to give Cameron leeway on that one.

Wherever John is in 1997, he obviously survives the nuclear war though he will still only be 12 at this point. We don't know what happens to Sarah exactly but John, now knowing his mother was right all along, will do much of his growing up in the ruins hiding from HKs not unlike how his father had. With no choice but to face reality John vows to become what he was supposed to become, eventually rising to his ultimate prominence in the Resistance.

Fasting forward, it's 2029 and once again Skynet is nearing total ruin. Under similar circumstances as the original timeline John and his soldiers storm the HQ with the Time Displacement Equipment. Now John knows to look for it because he knows what his mother told him; he listened to her tapes. He knows about the T-800 that tried to kill her the year before his birth. He knows that a man in his very company, Kyle Reese, is his father. So if John doesn't question what his mother said in the tapes it means he goes in there expecting to find that Skynet has sent a T-800 back to 1984 and that he will have to send Kyle Reese after it. However, he will instead be surprised to discover a different plot. A terrifying new prototype - the T-1000 - has been sent to 1995 to kill him when he was a child. Remember, according to Kyle Reese the T-800 infiltrators were 'the newest, the worst', he made no mention of a T-1000. The T-1000 is particular to this timeline where Skynet developed sooner leading to new advancements not seen in the original timeline (love this, credit again to ajp). No human soldier would stand a chance against a T-1000 so how would they tackle this situation? In an offshoot chamber is a row of inactive T-800 infiltrators with which the Resistance has now endured a long period of experience and learned things about them in the process. Now that they have access to inactive and undamaged T-800s Connor's top tech-person believes they have a good shot at reprogramming one. It is their best hope.

So, this adult version of Edward Furlong's Connor does not know Uncle Bob, he has no connection to the T-800 he now sends back to 1995. Nevertheless it means that when Uncle Bob goes back in time he will be looking for this John Connor and there will be no inconsistency when he tells the child (Furlong) Connor that he (T-800) was sent by him. Because remember, if original John from timeline 1 had sent Uncle Bob he would have been programmed to look for an entirely different kid and never would have found him because that kid never came to exist in timeline 2. Uncle Bob has to have been sent by the same JC of Terminator 2 for the dialogue in that ''who sent you'' scene to line up with this theory.

Timeline 3 - The T-1000 and the T-800 are sent 'in the direction of' the past of their own timeline which was timeline 2. The history that they know comprises the new origins of Skynet dictated by the 1984 events in the first film. However, because the T-1000 was not originally in the 1995 of this timeline his presence now creates a new branch. But importantly the events of T1 will still be the past of this new branch. Uncle Bob, per the same rules as the first time travelling pair in T1, will reach this new timeline also (and in the movie apparently even arrives first).

The new 1995 will play out as we see in T2 while everything before that stays the same. So in effect the Sarah Connor of T2 is still the same Sarah Connor who experienced a T-800 trying to kill her in 1984 and thus has the reaction to Uncle Bob that she does. Incidentally, perhaps if Furlong Connor had known that the T-800 who tried to kill his mom was a model 101 he'd have picked a different model number to use as his own protector in the past. I guess Sarah could easily have forgotten that particular detail when recounting her story to John in the tapes etc

Sarah's narration at the start of T2 will remain correct as far as she's concerned - ''Skynet sent 2 Terminators back through time. The first was programmed to strike at me in the year 1984 before John was born. It failed. The second was set to strike at John himself when he was still a child'' - the only thing she won't know is that these were 2 separate plots enacted by Skynet from different timelines. Her narration continues ''as before, the Resistance was able to send a lone warrior, a protector for John'' - again, this is correct but she doesn't know that each protector came from a different timeline. ''It was just a question of which one of them would reach him first'' - in open-ended timelines (without a pre-set future) this last line now has greater meaning because heck maybe the bad guy will reach John first. Or maybe the protector will but it won't matter...watch and see what happens!


Looking further into T2 we can say that whenever Uncle Bob is relaying the 'history of things to come' - to John, to Sarah and later to Dyson - he is talking about things that did occur as he describes them from the timeline he came from (Timeline 2). When he is talking to Sarah about Skynet becoming self aware, Judgment Day etc he is giving information accurate to his timeline, not to the one she was told about by Kyle in the first film - but she doesn't actually know this nor is Uncle Bob necessarily aware of her misunderstanding. As far as she is concerned Uncle Bob is from her Kyle Reese's future and he is giving specific details - from the horse's mouth so to speak - that Reese never could. In any case it wouldn't change her renewed determination to destroy Cyberdyne and avert Judgment Day.

A problem I previously brought up was the conversation between John and Uncle Bob when they're fixing the car at Enrique's camp - about John's real dad. There's a similar issue here as there was with T1 Sarah's closing monologue for the tapes she was making - where it was pretty clear she was expecting that John would have to again send Kyle Reese back through time. Because she has relayed this to John, he himself believes it and his lines during this conversation with Uncle Bob are telling - ''I wish I could have met my real Dad.....I send him back through time to 1984''. If he's anticipating that he himself will have to do it then we again just have to say that he's mistaken. Even if they didn't go on to destroy Cyberdyne and stop Judgment Day - correct me if I'm wrong ajp - he would not have to send back Reese. That plot had already played out and become part of the past. The future is dependent on the past but the past cannot be dependent on the future.

Skynet would not have to worry about jeopardizing its own existence by not again sending a T-800 to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor nor does John have to worry about being erased if he doesn't send Reese. In fact, in neither of the two timelines he exists in does the son of Kyle Reese have to send his father back in time. So potentially, and most intriguingly - John will not only meet his dad as Uncle Bob says he will, but they could go on to enjoy the remainder of their lives..at least until Kyle sees his son die of old age before he does.


I haven't thought of anything else to discuss from T2, problematic or otherwise, so skipping right to the end

Skynet gets wiped out; T-1000 and Uncle Bob melt into oblivion; no Judgment Day; and no Future War.

A truly unknown future rolls towards them.



For a final recap then - when watching T1 and T2 together it can be best approached with the understanding that 2 timelines have already played out and you're watching the 3rd timeline with parts of the others hinted at. Heck, if you're someone who has just never liked T2 you could look at this as the 2 timeline theory - the original timeline and the second which encompasses only the events of T1.
Alternatively you can reject this whole idea and stick with the filmmakers obvious intent about it being a paradox that just is. Most of us have been content with that for 36 years. But if everything actually can be unravelled and rationalized I feel like that's a better way to go because

The closed loop is something that not only doesn't work logically, but it deprives me of these characters having free will to follow through on the theme of the movies: There's no fate but what we make for ourselves.

I'm not willing to lose out on the *central theme* of the movies if in my mind I'm absolutely certain that a closed-loop single timeline would definitely lead to these characters losing any actual agency. I'm not willing to have these characters *always* acting out a pre-determined fate. I choose to leave the thematic intent in place rather than cling to the logistics that take away the free will of the heroes.

The movies kinda step on their own message a bit. T1 in particular seems to be insistent on the closed loop while if you also take into account the alternate, never filmed opening for T2 that I brought up before - where future John is fully aware that he must send back Reese and Uncle Bob - because it's a loop, he already lived through the events we're about to be shown - so even if the movie omitted the whole demolition of Cyberdyne stuff, we would know that John obviously always survived anyway because, well, there he is - sending back Reese and Uncle Bob. Talk about diminishing the stakes.

The parallel open-ended timelines are therefore much more in keeping with 'No Fate'. Together with the correction of certain major paradoxes via the 3 timelines (and I do now believe it has to be 3 to offer maximum consistency with what the movies present) I think I can agree with you ajp that this interpretation is more than worthwhile to compensate for whatever is lost. The main issue of contention against it seems to be any piece of dialogue that gives away Cameron/Wisher's intent about the Looping paradox - but in those instances I believe it's possible to call it mistaken presumption on the part of human characters.


.........................So whaddaya think? :lol
 
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