The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[thenammagazine]

I wouldn't call a more realistic (for lack of a better word) approach to the superhero genre as lacking imagination. Quite the contrary. We've had many fanastical takes on the genre but I can't think of any movie aside from Unbreakable that tried to play it straight prior to BB.

He didn't think Killer Croc, Penguin, Clayface, or any of Batman's other more fantastic rogues would work. Just looking at what he did to the Joker reinforces this. He had to fundamentally change how the Joker looked to fit him into his, for lack of a better term, "more realistic" environment. Now that's not saying it didn't work. It did, in the context of the films. But that's not to say he didn't run from the prospect of something along the lines of Hulk.

 

[DiFabio]

there is one thing I dont get,

Batman's message, the message of the 3 movies, is that no one can be batman, being batman destroyed Bruce, the love of his life died, his family's fortune gone, his body hurt,
so being Batman will kill you, and hurt the ones around you,

at the end that is pretty much the message no?

so why would Bruce give Blake the batman stuff, when being batman almost killed him, I don't get that, plus Bruce was rich, Blake isn't, Blake doesn't have Alfred of Fox either,

also, the end of Rises things are kinda just as bad as they were in the beginning,
Batman is gone, the prisoners were released, the Harvey Dent Act will be gone too, the criminals are out, so Batman really didn't change much by the end of Rises,

All Nolan's Batman did was drive Gotham, and probably the US completely into the gutter since Gotham is heralded as one of the US's econimic capitals. It's kinda like us going into Iraq, killing Saddam and leaving them with a pile of **** to deal with.

Become Batman, dethrone mafia boss, cause mob war.

Ra's returns for revenge on Bruce, burns down father's mansion, completely destroys Narrows making thousands of poor people and police phsycotic and freeing all the crazies from Arkham. Arkham never reopens from it.

Joker shows up terrorizing the city, burns millions and millions the city wanted to confinscate and use itself, kills his girlfriend and makes him quit.

Talia comes back for revenge on Bruce, almost nukes the city, destroys his company and legacy, destroy's infrastructure and financial sector completely for a year which would affect the world's economy severely, destroys his relationship with everyone he loves including Alfred (he doesn't love Selina in the movie at all, he loves Miranda but settles for Selina when Miranda dies, What?), desroy's the city's trust in elected officals, destorys the prison and Bruce quits with more criminals then ever still free(thousands) allowing a cop with zero ninja training who couldn't take on 4-5 mercs on his own to fend for himself. And before anyone gives me the will is everything bs line about Blake, he already had the will to stop the nuke and couldn't do it without Batman so what suddenly changed?

Forget the Joker, forget Bane, Batman is far and away Gotham's most damaging villain.

This place is full of disillusioned and clueless people.

Yes we all know your here, you don't have to accounce your arrival.

- Blake has the will and the drive, just as Bruce did
- Bruce's fortune was lost due to bogus trades, even within the film Fox says with time they may be able to prove fraud (would be a open and shut case) and get his money back
- The money would go to Alfred
- Who said Blake doesn't have Alfred? For me, Alfred would continue to live at Wayne Manor with the Orphans and would play a father figure role for Blake
- Who said Blake doesn't have Fox? @ Deckard - he has to will but he didn't have the equipment, now he will.

Also
- Batman is not gone, there is a new Batman in town
- Prisoners will be rounded up by the police and Batman 2.0
- Harvey Dent Act is no longer needed (that's the whole point of the film ), because now citizens have real hope based on a real heroic act, not the lie of Dent's death.
- He changed everything.

I'm really not trying to be a ****, its a fun Batman summer movie, but if you think about it at all logically, it just can't hold up.

Yep. You figured out the underlying "message" of the trilogy, that Batman is evil and is carrying out his plan to destroy Gotham and then the world. Good job.

yeah I don't see how in Any way Blake can be the new batman,
he might have a suit, and maybe even the Batpod

but then that's it, he doesn't really have the resources or the help he needs, just the suit and the couple of gadgets Bruce left him,

I have to say that is a pretty stupid ending, Leave Blake the same stuff that almost got Bruce killed, and that killed and destroyed everything around him,

I mean, Bruce was sulking for 8 years, 8 years, 8 years of not talking to anyone buy Alfred, just because of being Batman,

Giving that Stuff to Blake is almost like a Curse, like passing a Curse to someone else,

Your obviously joking but what's even funnier is your more right then you want to admit. Nolan's real message is that being Batman cost Bruce everything, his love, his friends, his butler, his company, his home, his possessions, his city, his citizenship, his legacy which he can never aknowlege. And for what? To stop villains that wouldn't have been there if not for him becoming Batman. And if he hadn't? There would still be the mafia. That's it.

You might want to watch Batman Begins again.

the only thing Batman was good for was stopping the League of Shadows from destroying the City,

but then by doing that he brought up the Joker from hiding,

seriously if Being Batman is such a horrible thing to be, so horrible that it will literally destroy your entire life,

why Give that to Blake? so that it can destroy his life too?
the point of Alfred talking to Bruce, asking him to quit ,losing Rachel, losing everything, Nolan was pretty much saying Batman should have never happened in Bruce life, it destroyed him
so Now Lets give the suit to this nice city cop kid, so that it can destroy him too?

it is funny how Bruce started batman to get all the criminals, yet by the end of Rises the opposite happened, every single criminal was free,
seriously he really didn't change anything, if you think about it

If you think about it logically the discussion should end with it's a MOVIE. If you get past that it should crash with it's based on a COMIC.

I love it when people use the word "literally" figuratively.
Last time I checked "living happily ever after" was not synonymous with having your entire life destroyed.

well, his former life WAS Destroyed, yes, yes it was, his body was pretty hurt too, even if he is happy with Selina, you cannot say he is not badly hurt,
that was the whole point of the movie, the 8 year gap, the Knee brace, the visit to the doctor, losing his fortune, etc.....

his family Legacy and his family's company gone,

What i am saying still stands, the very same thing that destroyed him is the thing he gives to Blake,
that would make a good "********* batman" Meme

you said it yourself, "living happily ever after", why was he happy at the end, because he could quit being the Batman and he found somebody,
being Batman was like a Curse for him, it appears, he was happy because he was able to let it go,

so while Bruce Wayne disappears, let's give the same thing that brought him misery to the nicest Cop in Gotham, the nicest most honest person, yeah, lets ruin that guy's life as well

Try telling that to the Nolanologists who see the face of God in this stuff.

So your point is that war is hell and it's all Batman's fault? Heroes take risks and make sacrifices. Look at all the cops who "literally" died. Is Gordon a ********* if recruits more? Is the government a ********* for recruiting more CIA agents?

So it's like the faces on toast or fruity pebbles?

that is so completely not the point, starting off that those people do not work alone, like Batman does, they have teams, Partners, and they can use GUNS against people......

the only reason Bruce could get away with it was because he was rich, he had Ninja training he had gadgets and vehicles, and he had allies, Blake has none of that,

I'm just pointing out how stupid and ridiculous the ending with Blake really is,
I know at first everyone was like WOW OMG Blake will be the new Batman.

but there is no way he really could,
and like I said, that is a douche move from Bruce to leave him with his curse, the Bat curse,
seriously we just spend 2 movies watching Bruce suffer because of being batman, suffer the loss of the woman he loved, suffer seeing Harvey fall, having to accidentally Kill Harvey, watching the Joker kill all those cops, having his house burn down by Ras,

why do you think Bruce was hiding for 8 years, seriously, and he barely made it out alive in Rises, he was lucky Bane didn't just kill him right away, or died in the prison

now all of the sudden he leaves Blake the Curse? because that's the right name for it, the Bat Curse

Good lord talk about over analyzing people, get out and get laid or something. It was a movie, good grief!

it just occurred to me, I was thinking about the movie because of an article about how Joseph Gordon-Levitt is talking about how the ending doesn't mean another movie with his is coming
he was saying how this is the perfect end,

that made me realize how stupid the ending with Blake was,

Rachel would have been dead in the first movie had Bruce not been Batman. The League intended to destroy Gotham before Bruce showed up in the prison. Scarecrow was an extension of that. The Joker was inspired by his actions, but hardly caused by his actions. (And, how many people did he kill that weren't criminals? Rachel and that one Bat imposter? Rachel and Dent were casualties of dirty cops, not Bruce.)

So, opposing evil brings him pain. The fact that he suffered through it allowed him to be there to prevent the League's second attempt. Gotham survives, with their faith restored. He's able to walk away from his achievement happy.

...what was the problem again?

the problem is leaving the suit to Blake who is not ready to be Batman,

and how every single criminal in Gotham was free,

I already said it, Batman did stop the League of Shadows in the first one, that was about the only good thing he did

That would have been a win, though.

Did he leave a deadline to Blake that said you must hit the streets by this date?

it is implied

Bruce Wayne is such a douche,
making Alfred believe he was dead, plus Alfred is old, that kind of sadness and stress is no good,
could have gotten sick from grief,
what a douche, Bat-douche, poor Alfred....

"Don't care. Busy tapping Cathaway ass in Europe and making Alfred cry again."

I didn't see it implied. For all you know he spends years training himself before hitting the streets. Giving him coordinates to the cave is only giving him coordinates to the cave.

In BB when Ducard/Ras tells BW at the camp fire that he "wasn't always in the mountains", I pictured him living in a city with his family.

Turns out in TDKR that he was a mercenary living in the desert.

So the shiny new Bat Signal he put up for Gordon is just meant to sit and rust out in the meantime? Gordon's not even gonna try and turn it on when needed?

Blake knew what he was getting into. Gordon pleaded with him to stay on the force but he refused. That isn't Bruce's fault.

Bruce was a lost shell of a man. Becoming Batman gave him a clear focus, saved millions of lives, and allowed him to finally have peace and be happy.

Blake witnessed the upside and downside to being a cop and to being Batman and decided the superhero path was the one for him. What's the problem again?

O My God you are right!!! I Also Imagine that when he said it lol

You mean kinda like them using it as a deterrent whether Batman was out there or not in TDK?

Okay, but how long is that "deterrent" gonna work when Batman never shows up at all? Especially since all of Gotham now assumes he's dead. And Gordon is just gonna continue to light it up for weeks/months/years and waiting patiently until Batman 2.0 magically shows up one night?

that Nolan's Batman should have ended with Begins, after he saved the city from the League of Shadows he should have retired,

that was the whole point or Rises, that he kept being Batman for too long and it destroyed him,

Dark Knight was amazing movie, Rises was good, Bane was great,

but if you think about Nolan's message, the best thing for Bruce would have quit in Begins, he would have married Rachel, he would have used his money and his company to make Gotham a better city, like his father tried,
instead of putting on a costume why not just continue doing what his father wanted to do, better Gotham,

That's what I get from Nolan, Being Batman was only good for the first movie,after the second movie started you realize Bruce made a big mistake, by continuing being batman,

You could say Bane was coming sooner or Later, and was going to complete Ras plan, but if Bruce was already retired from being Batman for 8 years, so he could have quit in Begins, and be ready for Bane if he came, be batman once more,

the difference is that fighting the Joker nearly destroyed him psychically, and killed the only reason he had to live apparently,

I took his statement as meaning that he went from living a comfortable life to now living in the mountains which was grueling and isolated, which it sure looked like in BB.

I guess living in the desert was less grueling and isolated.

Write a script to answer that question how you'd please. It's a movie.

How about the police can do their job until he's ready, if not, at least he'll have something to fight when he is.

Blake might even do a good job the first few months, he might even not need any Ninja training, catch a couple of bad guys

until the mob finds out there is another batman, then they will try to kill him,
or until the next freak shows up trying to kill him as well, problem is that, with Blake, they might succeed,

the Joker's lines in the interrogation scene apply here too, and will always apply to Batman in this universe,
they might need him now, but when they don't they will cast him out, like a leper, to them he is just a freak......

Blake doesn't have the experience, nor the drive that Bruce had,
I could see Blake killed in like 2-3 months

Do you have a problem with an adolescent circus performer fighting crime in the comics?

Or he could meet the challenge of whatever rises and be victorious. Bruce didn't have the experience originally either. Remember he wasn't the one who kickstarted the cycle of escalation. It was the LoS. They created an army of ninjas and so Bruce escalated by becoming a better ninja.

Blake can do the same. Or he can die. We don't know and that lack of knowledge doesn't take away from the trilogy one bit.

I actually like Blake. I just don't buy that he's meant to train for years before coming Batman 2.0. I believe the ending (new Bat Signal, etc) clearly implies that he already is the new Batman.

Unless, of course, Bruce put a "Don't open until next Christmas!" note on the Bat Signal.

- Blake has the will and the drive, just as Bruce did
Then why couldn't he and Gordon stop the bomb on their own?

He didn't have the resources. If Blake had access to Fox and The Bat, he could've done it too


- Bruce's fortune was lost due to bogus trades, even within the film Fox says with time they may be able to prove fraud (would be a open and shut case) and get his money back
Get who's money back? Bruce is dead... he cannot testify to anything. No one could prove anything about the fingerprints being stolen.

He's dead so what? His money still exists and it's not a leap of logic to assume if the money is recovered, it would go to Alfred.
'Mr Wayne's will was not ammended to reflect his more modest estate'.

So there is an original will which assumes he still has his fortune. Who would he have left the money to in that will? I'd guess a good chunk would be to Alfred. He trusts Alfred more than anyone.

Secondly, the contents of the Manor are sold to settle Wayne's accounts...and the 'remainder is to be left in its entirety to Alfred J Pennyworth'


- The money would go to Alfred
Even if it somehow did get reversed that money was not in the will to be left to him.

See above.

- Who said Blake doesn't have Alfred? For me, Alfred would continue to live at Wayne Manor with the Orphans and would play a father figure role for Blake
He wouldn't help Bruce anymore, why would he help a stranger.


Alfred is the reason Bruce lived at the end of TDKR, whether you like it or not. Alfred didn't try to stop Bruce becoming Batman when he was in his prime. He only tried to stop him when he was physically compromised and highly likely to get himself killed trying to be Batman any longer. Blake though is in his prime. So not a big leap for me to think Alfred will help him.

- Who said Blake doesn't have Fox? @ Deckard - he has to will but he didn't have the equipment, now he will.
Fox the guy that built the nuke that almost destroyed the city? Fox the guy running a bankrupt company likely to be bought out and let go? What equipment? The Tumblers were destoryed, the Bat is destroyed, and theres no money to make more

Company won't be bankrupt if trades are reversed and shareprice recovers. It would be struggling yes, but every company has its ups and downs. Equipment was destroyed, but Fox is alive and the most important asset is his brain

Also
- Batman is not gone, there is a new Batman in town
The statue in city hall?


Are you trying to suggest that Blake will not be the new Batman?

- Prisoners will be rounded up by the police and Batman 2.0
Identified how? They can blend in with all the other new homeless who were thrown out of their buildings and lost all their money and possessions, theres likely to be a mass exodus from the city, if I was held hostage in philly for 6 months the first thing I'd do is leave and get a room somewhere else where I could sleep in a bed with hot food etc.


They'll be identified the moment they start committing crimes. If they don't commit crimes then does it really matter?

- Harvey Dent Act is no longer needed (that's the whole point of the film ), because now citizens have real hope based on a real heroic act, not the lie of Dent's death.
And on top of that now the thousands locked up under BS Dent act are all by US Law guarenteed a retrial, most of them were only arrested in the first place because of the BS ammendmants the act put in place that will no longer exist meaning they will mostly all go free.

I think some of you guys are missing the point completely

The entire trilogy is a story arc not just for Bruce Wayne but for Gotham City itself. It starts with a corrupt city, with next to no hope of things getting better. Batman appears, fights the mob, but inadvertently causes escalation... 'things were always going to get worse before they got better'

Then things are supposedly peaceful for a while but based on a lie, so unsustainably so.

Then Bane arrives, pretty much war breaks loose, and disaster is averted, Batman is martyred and immortalized, and he finally becomes an everlasting symbol of hope.

Things are not going to be rosy forever, far from it, the city will take a turn for the worse once again, that's why a new Batman is needed, and that's why a Batman will always be needed. What Bruce accomplised (apart from saving Gotham from the LoS twice, and from the Joker's anarchy) is gave Gotham a symbol of hope, something they never had before. Before him, the only optimism they had was due to his parents. So Thomas Wayne inspired hope in his own way, Bruce Wayne did it by creating the legacy of Batman.

you raise really really good points,

but there is one thing you didn't,
being Batman was not a good thing for Bruce, it nearly killed him, it destroyed his body, broke him mentally,

now he is giving this Bat curse to the nicest person in Gotham?
he is giving this Life ending problem to the most honest person in Gotham?

OF course you could say, since Blake is so honest and good, he is the perfect batman,
but the thing is, even thought Batman created hope, it was created almost at the cost of his life, if Bruce didn't fix the Auto pilot, he Would have Died actually, just like he would have died when Ras burned his house down, or in the prison,
or when Joker was after him,
Bruce actually came close to death a lot, and since this is the realistic Nolan batman, those close encounters had repercussions,

so being batman in this universe is a death sentence waiting to happen, you either quit when things are calm or you die a hero,
that was pretty much the message, either you are Batman when is definitely needed, when the city is about to be destroyed or blown up, and nothing more, or you do it every night and risk dying,

is like, Blake should be Batman when chaos begins, but he should not go after criminals every night, should be a once a year type thing, if Blake wants to survive being the Batman,

Hopefully people make their own choices.

Which has the power to transcend the life of a single man.

Well you're right, yes, being Batman nearly killed Bruce Wayne, but he found a way to get out just in time, and pass the mantle.
Being Batman is not going to be healthy or easy for Blake, or for anyone who does it in the future. That's why only a select few could ever be Batman, they need certain qualities to be able to survive the toll it will take.

Batman can be anyone, but anyone can't be Batman.

What that means is, not everyone has the physical and mental capability to be Batman, but who Batman is does not matter, he is a symbol. Doesn't matter if Bruce, Blake or someone else is under the mask.

yeah I understand what you mean by that, I get what you're saying,

it still seems to me like Being batman is a Curse on whoever it falls on, something that will ruin their lives, and the lives of those they care about,

Well, it IS a curse, there's nothing happy about being Batman. There's a reason he's called the Dark Knight. He's a tragic hero. And yeah, perhaps it's moreso in this interpretation than some others.

It seemed to me that Blake was ready to move on and do something different. I think he admired Wayne/Batman and realized that he may be able to do a lot more good not being a cop and going a similar route as Batman. Obviously, Wayne realized this too and gave him the coordinates to the Batcave.

Yes, being Batman definitely takes it toll on a person....but if someone is willing to accept this challenge - like it seems Blake is, I can hardly blame Wayne for it. He is giving Blake the tools to be bigger than just a cop - if HE chooses to do so.

I'm not so sure. Bruce really didn't have a good handle on it, nor a mentor (He had Ducard, but it's not the same). Blake gets to jump in the ride while the seat's still warm.

Personally, I would love to be Batman.

I'm surprised I haven't seen this brought up by a nitpicker (Maybe this thread should be renamed "The Dark Nitpickers Rise" ) but when Batman beat up the goons and then Blake said "you missed a spot" Bruce followed up with possibly the girliest kick I've ever seen performed by a superhero.

Rubber chaffs.

Clearly the Nolan films make you depressed and irritable. Maybe you should never watch them again?



With this kind of thinking no superhero film holds up.

That's very true. But the difference is that Nolan wants the viewer to think about these films. They're supposed to be smarter. To an extent, they are... but they also fall apart in some areas. They're not perfection.

And it's always easier to forgive the movies that aren't taking themselves as seriously.

Bah. A movie that doesn't even try to be serious just so it has an easier time rationalizing that the audience is laughing "with" them gets no extra points with me (though a more straight up fantasy like Avengers or SW is certainly top shelf entertainment when done right of course.) It takes balls to take most of Batman's fantasy elements and play them "straight" as if it were any other crime/action drama.

If you think that Nolan's approach demands extra scrutiny then why not just write the series off at the notion of a guy having any success dressing as a bat, kicking criminal ass, and eluding cops while jumping rooftops on his hybrid lamborghini/humvee? Why even bother nitpicking minutiae over how quickly his power was shut off when after his bankruptcy was widely publicized when the very premise of the series itself is so fundamentally absurd from a realistic standpoint?

I don't know about that. Just because his other films forced you to use your brain, doesn't mean his Batflicks did.

They're not dumb, but outside of mystery solving, I never used my noggin.

Just never came across as that type of film. Nolan wanted to give you a mature good time. Not really aimed at kids, but not really super serious.

 

[intothevoid]

=

Gives up

 

[DiFabio]

 

[DarthBakura]

Holy multi-quote Batman!

 

[Nightwing]

That was the biggest compliation of quotes i've ever seen O_O

 

[ZaCHw117]

That was the biggest compliation of quotes i've ever seen O_O

You haven't seen of Maglor's posts then.

 

[Nightwing]

You haven't seen of Maglor's posts then.

O_O where's theirs at?

 

[DiFabio]

You haven't seen of Maglor's posts then.

The difference is that he'd reply to each and every quote.

 

[intothevoid]

The difference is that he'd reply to each and every quote.

 

[jye4ever]

If only the movie had been as long as that mega MEGA AUTOMALL multiquote.

 

[intothevoid]

If only the movie had been as long as that mega MEGA AUTOMALL multiquote.

You know Nolan's got you by the balls when you think a 2 hr 45min film is too short

 

[jye4ever]

You know Nolan's got you by the balls when you think a 2 hr 45min film is too short

That was a good shortie wasn't it.

 

[Niltusk]

You know Nolan's got you by the balls when you think a 2 hr 45min film is too short

And I held my bladder for most of that 2:45.

After missing the high school fight on ASM, I wasn't walking out at any part of TDKR.

 

[ironwez20]

Aw come on guys we're still talking about tdkr ? You do realize paranormans out to right ? Why cant we deeply anylize that movie ? lol

 

[intothevoid]

Para what?

I saw Bourne Legacy last night.

What a POS

 

[krec9]

Para what?

I saw Bourne Legacy last night.

What a POS

 

[Khev]

All right lets stop with the personal attacks.

 

[Alex Logan]

All right lets stop with the personal attacks.

Unfortunately, this should have been posted a few pages back.

 

[Khev]

Unfortunately, this should have been posted a few pages back.

Agreed....gonna go back and do a little "clean up."