Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

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Thanks for this. I agree. I think people often overlook that storytelling is as much a craft as it is an art. While it's true that aesthetics are subjective, those same aesthetics have certain requirements that must be fulfilled, in order to accomplish something in the real world: like communication.

People often forget that the goal of storytelling is to express ideas. While the joy that someone gets from a certain expression of ideas differs from one individual to the next, the ability to communicate those ideas effectively requires all kinds of obstacles and boundaries, where you either succeed, or fail in attempting it.

There are academics who argue that we never actually communicate ideas, but instead, project meaning onto the text itself. Post Modernist philosophers would argue that meaning is also subjective; that you bring yourself to the book, rather than learn from it. I don't agree with this perspective, but when I studied literature in university, there were many attempts to convince me of this perspective. There was a conscious effort to undermine realism, objectivity or evade bias. We were taught that bias is inevitable, and that you can never know the intentions of the author, even when they state them explicitly. Language deceives you. Can you imagine paying tuition to learn this nonsense?!

In many ways, I think Post Modernism is responsible for a lot of unintelligible narratives in modern fiction, including The Last Jedi. Film schools probably throw Derrida at everyone, in hopes of creating something avant-garde, when in reality it makes for convoluted fiction that doesn't work. You can like it in a vacuum, but you'll never learn anything about the world, from it.

I'll still buy toys from the OT, because Lucas tapped into the theories of Joseph Campbell regarding archetypes that coincided with the evolution of our species. There are certain aspects to mythology that have always encapsulated what we are as people, because they reflect how we experience the world. The OT was about the rights of passage one had to endure, to become an adult. There was a linear structure involving cause and effect, where you felt something for the characters because you were dragged through their tribulations in attempting to get what they wanted, watching them change in the process. The new trilogy fails, in this regard.

This is a perfectly valid opinion. But it's important to add that it is just that: an opinion.

In order to get my BFA I had to sit through countless art history classes in college, and went away with the opinion that most postmodernist work is pretentious self congratulatory garbage.

TLJ is hardly postmodernist, and it certainly isn't "avant-garde" and just slavishly adhering to Campbell doesn't make something automatically good.

All art is subjective, and anyone is free to dislike this film, but to say that TLJ does not communicate any ideas is blatantly false. You may not like those ideas, but they are there.
 
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TLJ shows Kathleen Kennedy's contempt for the previous films, the male characters, and the fan base, which she wants to replace with 3rd way feminists (that is not feminism. It's just man hate). Pushing a political agenda took priority over good storytelling. She turned SW into a playground for her man hating propaganda. "Oh, you like Luke Skywalker? **** you! You like Poe? Here, eat ****! Admiral Ackbar? Nope. *Kills him off like he's nothing and replaces him with purple haired woman*

To put this in proper perspective. Kathleen Kennedy once wore a shirt that says "The Force is Female". Google it.

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TLJ shows Kathleen Kennedy's contempt for the previous films, the male characters, and the fan base, which she wants to replace with 3rd way feminists (that is not feminism. It's just man hate). Pushing a political agenda took priority over good storytelling. She turned SW into a playground for her man hating propaganda. "Oh, you like Luke Skywalker? **** you! You like Poe? Here, eat ****! Admiral Ackbar? Nope. *Kills him off like he's nothing and replaces him with purple haired woman*

To put this in proper perspective. Kathleen Kennedy once wore a shirt that says "The Force is Female". Google it.

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Oh my god.

If you honestly view the new Star Wars films as an "attack on men," then you must have an absolutely brittle and fragile sense of masculinity.
 
To put this in proper perspective. Kathleen Kennedy once wore a shirt that says "The Force is Female". Google it.

You mean this photo? This photo of Kathleen Kennedy at the launch of a film festival organized by a school for girls?
archerfilmfestival-web-img_4335-embed.jpg
 
Oh and Rey is a Mary Sue, unquestionably now. KK: "Force sensitive woman don't need training to master the Force. Only men do. They especially don't need to be trained by a man!"

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Oh and Rey is a Mary Sue, unquestionably now. KK: "Force sensitive woman don't need training to master the Force. Only men do. They especially don't need to be trained by a man!"

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1. That's not at all what a Mary Sue is.

2. Kathleen Kennedy didn't write TFA or TLJ. Yes, I am sure she had input, but JJ. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Rian Johnson (all men, I might add) have all said they a ton of freedom in writing and filming their vision.

3. Luke was a sheltered naive farm boy. Rey grew up on her own, without anyone to care for or about her, surround by criminals and junkers and was forced to learn to fight and defend herself from a young age. When we meet her, she already knows how to fight out of necessity, whereas Luke at the beginning of ANH would probably lose a fist fight with a jawa.

4. You seem to have some serious anger issues when it comes to women. You might want to talk to someone about that.

5. This is a fictional fantasy movie, not a personal assault on you. You might want to talk to someone about that as well.
 
1. That's not at all what a Mary Sue is.

2. Kathleen Kennedy didn't write TFA or TLJ. Yes, I am sure she had input, but JJ. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Rian Johnson (all men, I might add) have all said they a ton of freedom in writing and filming their vision.

3. Luke was a sheltered naive farm boy. Rey grew up on her own, without anyone to care for or about her, surround by criminals and junkers and was forced to learn to fight and defend herself from a young age. When we meet her, she already knows how to fight out of necessity, whereas Luke at the beginning of ANH would probably lose a fist fight with a jawa.

4. You seem to have some serious anger issues when it comes to women. You might want to talk to someone about that.

5. This is a fictional fantasy movie, not a personal assault on you. You might want to talk to someone about that as well.
I'm not alone. A lot of woman say the same and are offended by it.




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Again, none of this is a response to my post.

You are seemingly unable to defend your own criticisms of this film other than "Kathleen Kennedy, who hired all male writers, all male directors, and a predominately male cast and crew, hates men."

"Political correctness" and "third wave feminism" (Note: not "third way feminism," as you put it) seem to be little more than code words for "I don't like the fact that there are women leads in these movies."

With the release of Solo in the spring, there will have been 10 official Star Wars movies. Out of those 10, 7 have male leads and 3 have female leads. Women make up a bit more than 50% of the total population, and yet account for 30% of the leads in Star Wars films. That is obviously some radical feminism and man hating there.

That seems to be the full extent of your argument.

It's a movie. Relax. Go find something in life that is truly worth this level of outrage.
 
Kathleen Kennedy is the reason for most of the problems with the new Star Wars movies. Anyone who can't see that doesn't get how this whole thing works. Disney is just the distributor of the movies Lucasfilm puts out, and Lucasfilm is currently headed by Kathleen Kennedy. Ever since she took the reigns, the entire universe has undergone a drastic shift, in terms of casting, when the films are released, how the Force works, changes in beloved characters, etc. She's the one who is ultimately calling the shots on all this stuff.

The Kennedy hate is spot on. I don't care about the female leads, I've liked all of the female characters we've seen (particularly Jyn and Rey), but she definitely seems to have a serious anti-white guy agenda going on. It's really hard to argue against that at this point. There hasn't been a single hero that's been a new character and a white male in the three new movies that have come out. Only white male villains. Finn and Saw are black, Poe and Cassian are hispanic, Chirrut and Baze are Asian, Bohdi was Arab. Plus, all the males that did return from the old movies, Luke, Han and Ackbar, are dead. And a the only new white guy on the light side of the Force that we've seen, Lor San Tekka, died in 2 minutes.

For what i's worth, Rogue One is my third favorite Star Wars movie, and I loved The Force Awakens (not so much TLJ). All I'm saying is that it's hard to argue against Kennedy bringing an agenda into these movies.
 
Kathleen Kennedy is the reason for most of the problems with the new Star Wars movies. Anyone who can't see that doesn't get how this whole thing works. Disney is just the distributor of the movies Lucasfilm puts out, and Lucasfilm is currently headed by Kathleen Kennedy. Ever since she took the reigns, the entire universe has undergone a drastic shift, in terms of casting, when the films are released, how the Force works, changes in beloved characters, etc. She's the one who is ultimately calling the shots on all this stuff.

The Kennedy hate is spot on. I don't care about the female leads, I've liked all of the female characters we've seen (particularly Jyn and Rey), but she definitely seems to have a serious anti-white guy agenda going on. It's really hard to argue against that at this point. There hasn't been a single hero that's been a new character and a white male in the three new movies that have come out. Only white male villains. Finn and Saw are black, Poe and Cassian are hispanic, Chirrut and Baze are Asian, Bohdi was Arab. Plus, all the males that did return from the old movies, Luke, Han and Ackbar, are dead. And a the only new white guy on the light side of the Force that we've seen, Lor San Tekka, died in 2 minutes.

For what i's worth, Rogue One is my third favorite Star Wars movie, and I loved The Force Awakens (not so much TLJ). All I'm saying is that it's hard to argue against Kennedy bringing an agenda into these movies.

As a white guy, I find it very easy to argue against any detrimental agenda she may be bringing into these films.

Who cares that we are getting non-white or non-male characters? Being more inclusive doesn't mean you are "anti-white." Heaven forbid that a fictional world made up of wild aliens of every type, would also include people of varying color and gender.

And yes, saying these movies are "anti-white guy" is in fact racist and sexist, because it hinges on the premises that the default is a white man, and that somehow white men are entitled to these roles and they are being taken from them and given to other actors.
 
Kathleen Kennedy is the reason for most of the problems with the new Star Wars movies. Anyone who can't see that doesn't get how this whole thing works. Disney is just the distributor of the movies Lucasfilm puts out, and Lucasfilm is currently headed by Kathleen Kennedy. Ever since she took the reigns, the entire universe has undergone a drastic shift, in terms of casting, when the films are released, how the Force works, changes in beloved characters, etc. She's the one who is ultimately calling the shots on all this stuff.

The Kennedy hate is spot on. I don't care about the female leads, I've liked all of the female characters we've seen (particularly Jyn and Rey), but she definitely seems to have a serious anti-white guy agenda going on. It's really hard to argue against that at this point. There hasn't been a single hero that's been a new character and a white male in the three new movies that have come out. Only white male villains. Finn and Saw are black, Poe and Cassian are hispanic, Chirrut and Baze are Asian, Bohdi was Arab. Plus, all the males that did return from the old movies, Luke, Han and Ackbar, are dead. And a the only new white guy on the light side of the Force that we've seen, Lor San Tekka, died in 2 minutes.

For what i's worth, Rogue One is my third favorite Star Wars movie, and I loved The Force Awakens (not so much TLJ). All I'm saying is that it's hard to argue against Kennedy bringing an agenda into these movies.

By that logic, Lucas is a woman hating racist that is pushing a 'white male power' agenda from the 6 movies he's made.:slap
 
Again, none of this is a response to my post.

You are seemingly unable to defend your own criticisms of this film other than "Kathleen Kennedy, who hired all male writers, all male directors, and a predominately male cast and crew, hates men."

"Political correctness" and "third wave feminism" (Note: not "third way feminism," as you put it) seem to be little more than code words for "I don't like the fact that there are women leads in these movies."

With the release of Solo in the spring, there will have been 10 official Star Wars movies. Out of those 10, 7 have male leads and 3 have female leads. Women make up a bit more than 50% of the total population, and yet account for 30% of the leads in Star Wars films. That is obviously some radical feminism and man hating there.

That seems to be the full extent of your argument.

It's a movie. Relax. Go find something in life that is truly worth this level of outrage.

Whatever. I'm an anarchist. No one complains about Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, or Black Mamba from Kill Bill. They're all extremely popular. That's because they're quality characters.

A true believer in gender equality would reject this form of feminism, which is a misnomer. What I'm most objecting to is them prioritizing politics over quality storytelling. They are clearly intent on destroying the canon and turning into a vehicle for political propaganda. How can anyone who values the SW canon be ok with this abominable film? The defenders just keep reaching further and further to try to justify what they've done.

If I have to explain how they undermined the previous films then you may only like SW for the the special effects and the fighting.
 
Whatever. I'm an anarchist. A true believer in gender equality would reject this form of feminism, which is a misnomer. What I'm most objecting to is them prioritizing politics over quality storytelling. They are clearly intent on destroying the canon and turning into a vehicle for political propaganda. How can anyone who values the SW canon be ok with this abominable film? The defenders just keep reaching further and further to try to justify what they've done.

If I have to explain how they undermined the previous films then you may only like SW for the the special effects and the fighting.

Ah the old "my arguments are too smart for you so I won't even make them" bit.

Good luck with the whole angry anarchist thing.
 
Who cares that we are getting non-white or non-male characters? Being more inclusive doesn't mean you are "anti-white." Heaven forbid that a fictional world made up of wild aliens of every type.

This is sort of oxymoronic.

How are you being "inclusive" when by your own admission, there's no new Caucasian male characters being included? So if you exclude them, what does it mean?

I think people are also referring to human characters, not aliens.
 
Ah the old "my arguments are too smart for you so I won't even make them" bit.

Good luck with the whole angry anarchist thing.

Sexism is antithetical to anarchism. What I'm saying is that if the movie had a male chauvinist message it wouldve been just as offensive. The priority should be quality storytelling. Not political propaganda.

Reread my previous post. The part about Ellen Ripley & other female leads.
 
As a white guy, I find it very easy to argue against any detrimental agenda she may be bringing into these films.

Who cares that we are getting non-white or non-male characters? Being more inclusive doesn't mean you are "anti-white." Heaven forbid that a fictional world made up of wild aliens of every type, would also include people of varying color and gender.

And yes, saying these movies are "anti-white guy" is in fact racist and sexist, because it hinges on the premises that the default is a white man, and that somehow white men are entitled to these roles and they are being taken from them and given to other actors.

Ugh, I share your frustration. Are other white men really this fragile and easily threatened by the idea of other genders or races having the spotlight for a change?? I just don't get it. We've been the center of everything for centuries, and the second some other group makes the slightest inroad people freak out and suggest there's some insidious anti-white, anti-men agenda at work, get very serious about "reverse racism", and use the term "SJW" a lot. :lol
 
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