Those who disliked TLJ, are you still buying toys from it?

[Mr.Tanker]

But surely that’s the point. Include more women and minorities. Not replace or force then in. I don’t care about gender or race but when organisations openly talk about these being the main story considerations that’s where it goes wrong.
Ripley, buffy, leia, Wonder Woman, great characters that happen to be women. Rather than woman who happen to be great characters.
Look at the bbc and the whole dr who thing and again this week people talking about a female ot black bond after Daniel Craig leaves. You wouldn’t recast buffy as a man would you ?

Anyway no issue with jyn cause the story worked. Rey I don’t really lie because her story doesn’t work.

Again, you use the word "replace," like the default is a man, and a woman is taking that role.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

https://youtu.be/ODgwL7DJ9dY

This is amazing.

 

[Spark Extractor]

Right, because Princess Leia, Padme Naberrie, Mon Mothma, Mace Windu, Lando Calrissian, etc means he's a woman hating racist. Those are only the leaders of the Rebellion and the second strongest Jedi in the entire film series.

Nice try.

1. That's 6 movies against 2.
2. 3 of them were after a couple decades of people pointing out that the original SW had almost all white men.
3. Only 2 of those characters could be considered lead characters. Leia/Padme
4. Mon Mothma was barely even in the movies.
5. Yoda Obi-Wan Qui-Gon Anakin and now presumedly Luke are all more powerful than Mace, otherwise where's his force ghost?
6. 2 of the major leads of TFA are Adam Driver and Harrison Ford (both still white males last I saw)
7. 2 of the major leads of TLJ are Adam Driver and Mark Hamill (also both still white males last I saw)

So yeah, it was a nice try.

 

[Wor-Gar]

https://youtu.be/ODgwL7DJ9dY

That's pretty funny -- especially ESB.

 

[SilverStar17]

1. That's 6 movies against 2.
2. 3 of them were after a couple decades of people pointing out that the original SW had almost all white men.
3. Only 2 of those characters could be considered lead characters. Leia/Padme
4. Mon Mothma was barely even in the movies.
5. Yoda Obi-Wan Qui-Gon Anakin and now presumedly Luke are all more powerful than Mace, otherwise where's his force ghost?
6. 2 of the major leads of TFA are Adam Driver and Harrison Ford (both still white males last I saw)
7. 2 of the major leads of TLJ are Adam Driver and Mark Hamill (also both still white males last I saw)

So yeah, it was a nice try.

You sure you don't at all put groups into nice little boxes?

 

[Spark Extractor]

Are they good characters first to you, or women first?

That's the thing. I can be fine with either. I don't get bent out of shape by any this.

You sure you don't at all put groups into a nice little box?

Yeah, I'm positive. Your bolded quotes don't mean anything.

 

[SilverStar17]

That's the thing. I can be fine with either. I don't get bent out of shape by any this.

That didn't answer my query. No worries though.

 

[Vault Boy]

No. In other words we see them as characters with qualities beyond just the "woman first" label that you seemingly impute to them, just to simply fill a quota and nothing more.

Grace from Beyond the Trailer said it best. "This is change just for the sake of change and going in the wrong direction."



Kathleen Kennedy explicitly inults the male fans.

Star Wars: Kathleen Kennedy Says She Doesn’t Need To Cater To Male Fans

"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something."

In other words "**** off". She somehow doesn't know the bulk of the fan base are men. She may not like them but what she's doing makes no business sense. That's a sign of political extremism.



Furthermore

 

[ShadowX81]

Well if you include one person, someone else is naturally going to be excluded.

And choosing to exclude them based on race or gender is both racist and sexist.

Majority, minority whatever. Making that choice based on these factors is wrong.

 

[davejames]

But surely that’s the point. Include more women and minorities. Not replace or force then in. I don’t care about gender or race but when organisations openly talk about these being the main story considerations that’s where it goes wrong.
Ripley, buffy, leia, Wonder Woman, great characters that happen to be women. Rather than woman who happen to be great characters.
Look at the bbc and the whole dr who thing and again this week people talking about a female ot black bond after Daniel Craig leaves. You wouldn’t recast buffy as a man would you ?

Anyway no issue with jyn cause the story worked. Rey I don’t really lie because her story doesn’t work.

Well the fallback has always been to not cast women or minorities in something, so it's not surprising that an extra effort might need to be made sometimes to fight back against that inclination. It's like when you hear about TV writer's rooms that were only made up of white men, just because those are the only writers that they knew and were comfortable with. Or the Oscars favoring white films and actors just because that's what most of their membership was made up of. For that to ever change there had to be a push for inclusion and diversity, because it probably would have taken another century for it to happen otherwise.

Call it a necessary evil if you want, but I think it's a good thing in the end.

 

[SilverStar17]

Well the fallback has always been to not cast women or minorities in something, so it's not surprising that an extra effort might need to be made sometimes to fight back against that inclination. It's like when you hear about TV writer's rooms that were only made up of white men, just because those are the only writers that they knew and were comfortable with. Or the Oscars favoring white films and actors just because that's what most of their membership was made up of. For that to ever change there had to be a push for inclusion and diversity, because it probably would have taken another century for it to happen otherwise.

Call it a necessary evil if you want, but I think it's a good thing in the end.

Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right.

When you claim you're fighting discrimination and advocating for being more diverse (which of course is admirable) by actively discriminating against people and claiming it's justified, the message gets lost.

You either think discriminating against people by nothing more than their physical appearance is bad, or you don't.

 

[KBA]

What a mess this issue/non-issue is. Would everyone be happy if they just replaced Daisy Ridley with Pit Pat, the magical, pan-sexual, non-threatening spokesthing from Mr. Show?

 

[Spark Extractor]

Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right.

In a vacuum, yes, two wrongs don't make a right.

However, why does one party (the old way of doing things) not have to change or at least are given the ability to change at a glacial pace of their own choosing while the other party(the new way to do things) has to start out absolutely pure and right from day 1?

 

[davejames]

Grace from Beyond the Trailer said it best. "This is change just for the sake of change and going in the wrong direction."

[video=youtube_share;16OOgx63Xts]
"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something."

In other words "**** off". She somehow doesn't know the bulk of the fan base are men. She may not like them but what she's doing makes no business sense. That's a sign of political extremism.

Really? That's how you interpret her statement, as an attack on the male fans? And not simply her saying that she has to appeal to more than just the male fanbase now? Again, it's amazing to me how some guys can feel so incredibly threatened by any of this.

 

[SilverStar17]

In a vacuum, yes, two wrongs don't make a right.

However, why does one party (the old way of doing things) not have to change or at least are given the ability to change at a glacial pace of their own choosing while the other party(the new way to do things) has to start out absolutely pure and right from day 1?

Since when is the "new way" admittedly not including someone based on nothing more than their physical appearance? Seems kind of a regression to me.

What a mess this issue/non-issue is. Would everyone be happy if they just replaced Daisy Ridley with Pit Pat, the magical, pan-sexual, non-threatening spokesthing from Mr. Show?

I don't think they need to change anything myself as far as Rey goes. I personally think she is a good character.

 

[Mr.Tanker]

Kathleen Kennedy explicitly inults the male fans.

"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something."

In other words "**** off". She somehow doesn't know the bulk of the fan base are men. She may not like them but what she's doing makes no business sense. That's a sign of political extremism.

Saying she doesn't explicitly owe male fans anything isn't anywhere near the same thing as telling them to "**** off."

And she was specifically referring to fans that were upset about a women being the main character in Rogue One, not all male fans.

This is a fallacy called a "Straw Man" argument; it's when you distort or exaggerate what someone said in order to make your response appear more reasonable and sound.

For the millionth time, your arguments lack any actual point, only that you think Kathleen Kennedy hates men and is ruining Star Wars.

 

[Spark Extractor]

Since when is the "new way" admittedly not including someone based on nothing more than their physical appearance? Seems kind of a regression to me.

You only think that because you falsely believe someone has been excluded. TFA and TLJ have not excluded anybody that I'm aware of. Who by 'default' should have been some race/ethnicity/gender in either of these movies but was rejected because of their physical appearance? No one. It's all in your mind.

 

[SilverStar17]

TFA and TLJ have not excluded anybody that I'm aware of. Who by 'default' should have been some race/ethnicity/gender in either of these movies but was rejected because of their physical appearance?

I concur, and that includes women, as you label them. So you would have been fine if Rey was a "white male" then, as you label them, but still a good character?

 

[ShadowX81]

In a vacuum, yes, two wrongs don't make a right.

However, why does one party (the old way of doing things) not have to change or at least are given the ability to change at a glacial pace of their own choosing while the other party(the new way to do things) has to start out absolutely pure and right from day 1?

Because what you are advocating for isn't equality. In an equal world, choices would be made without regard to race, sex, or anything. What you are advocating for is to actively discriminate against white men to even the playing field. Is it immediately even? No. But if you want this to be a fair world it does need time to happen naturally. Let people leave positions and then when those jobs open up, the choice for a replacement can happen regardless of race or gender.

Any push for that to happen that involves discrimination is just as bad as what you are claiming to fight against.

Look at the BBC. Forget about the whole Doctor Who thing. In the past couple years they have been actively firing white men in various positions that were doing just fine at their job just so they can even out diversity quotas.

 

[davejames]

Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right.

When you claim you're fighting discrimination and advocating for being more diverse (which of course is admirable) by actively discriminating against people and claiming it's justified, the message gets lost.

You either think discriminating against people by nothing more than their physical appearance is bad, or you don't.

Yes that's a nice sentiment, but I'm not exactly sure how it applies to SW or TLJ, or who exactly is getting discriminated against here.