UFC, etc.
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woodsy
Super Freak
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Um.. no. He trained properly and moving up a weight class had nothing to do with the outcome. GSP is just better. Complete domination and I didn't see any complaints from BJ when his corner stopped it. He was done. Fight should've been stopped in the 4th anyways but the ref let it go. You see WHY it should've been stopped though, since after the round ended is when BJ's corner threw in the towel. Fitting, since BJ called GSP a quitter. lmao.
Stop making excuses for him man. He lost. Definitively. And if your counter is "I'm not making excuses" then re-read the post I quoted from you.. it's full of excuses. You mention "outmatched" but then list other things as more likely. smh. And quit acting like a tough guy on a Toy Forum.
I couldn't agree more. Moving up a wt. class had nothing to do with the outcome, MMA fighters move up or down all the time. And if I recall correctly it was "no mas" Penn who wanted this fight in the first place. He's the one who called out GSP so obviously he didn't think it was much of a factor either. Besides, why would it be a factor now? It wasn't a factor when GSP narrowly beat Penn in their first match, and it certainly wasn't a factor when Penn beat Hughes for the UFC welterweight belt earlier in his career. No, Penn has spent a large part of his career fighting as a welterweight and it had nothing to do with last night's outcome.
Penn was beaten by a superior fighter, pure and simple. And that's not taking anything away from Penn, he is a great fighter. But he was no match for GSP, who inflicted his will on Penn from the opening bell. As I stated month's before this dream fight was even announced, GSP is not the same fighter he was when he and Penn first fought. He has vastly improved every aspect of his game, ground and pound, submissions, striking, wrestling, you name it. Penn has not, the only area where I could say Penn has improved is his conditioning, though honestly even that looked questionable last night as he looked spent by the end of the 2nd round.
No doubt Penn will recover from this beating and hopefully in the future he'll let his fist's do the talking instead of his big mouth. One thing's for sure, after spending the last few month's calling GSP a quitter, "no mas" Penn is looking pretty stupid right about now.
creature4000
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That was such a disapointing fight.
I thought is was going to be alot better, not one-sided. Glad I downloaded it.
Next UFC is at the Bell centre in Montreal..I'll be there..
UFC 97
The Chuck v Shogun fight should be interesting. And its a big fight for both guys. Then Anderson Silva v Thales Leites should be good. Its a good card.
Then UFC 98
Lesner v Mir and Matt Hughes v Matt Serra in Vegas.
I'm waiting for Fedor v Barnett.
I actually wrote bascially the same thing about Clay, but erased it, since I thought it would start a fight here. But, He just holds. I hate to see a fighter lose a fight because the other guy held him. Thats old school UFC.
As far as Hughes, this will probably be his last fight. This fight with Serra was supposed to happen twice last year but both kept getting hurt. It will interesting since both will talk trash about each other.
Hey man, dont hold back from posting what you feel main.... Thats what this thread is for, we all just give opinions about fighters thats it, my opinion bout Guida is that he is afraid to get KOed.......I dont know how Joe Rogan can say that Guida is one of the most exciting fighters in the UFC, I literally skipped to the decision, it was that boring.... I wanna see people going toe to toe, or a good display of Submission attempts or Ground and Pound......Clay does neither of these....
ENDO-HUNTER
Super Freak
Hey NASH , I am an old fart. 44 years old this month. I am by no means RANDY COUTURE but I train hard and the benefits are real and hold my own against guys half my age all the time. I lost 30 pounds and am on my way to my goal weight hopefully getting there this year. In my younger days I trained TAE KWAN DO and got my BLACK BELT at 21 years old. Took up BJJ 3 years ago and received my BLUE BELT a year ago and train at BIG JOHN McCARTHY'S Training Academy (see pic below). I see a lot of ^^^^ talking going on around here and am curious how many of you guys actually train and where. Post some pics of yourselves training instead of talking all this crap and legitimize all the talking and calling people out from across the country. I don't get why there can't be fun discussion on the UFC and MMA in general without some guys needing to belittle others to make themselves look like a big shots. I have a lot to contribute to these discussions but would rather avoid all the counter productive ^^^^ talking. 
LEFT to RIGHT:
The night we received our Jiu Jitsu BLUE BELTS .
My BRO'S : Jess , Tony , BIG JOHN , Mike , MYSELF and Coli
LEFT to RIGHT:
The night we received our Jiu Jitsu BLUE BELTS .
My BRO'S : Jess , Tony , BIG JOHN , Mike , MYSELF and Coli
Last edited:
sscalltheway
Super Freak
I told you Stag, Guida FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah what a show,the fight that interested me the most was Machida vs Silva.Machida is ^^^^ing dangerous,what a talented guy,you cant figure out how to fight him,he keeps his distance and if you hunt him youll pay,if not he`ll hunt you...cant wait to see him back!
As for GSp vs Penn,there wasnt much Penn could do,GSP is in a league of his own,just like Anderson Silva.
As for GSp vs Penn,there wasnt much Penn could do,GSP is in a league of his own,just like Anderson Silva.
Hey NASH , I am an old fart. 44 years old this month. I am by no means RANDY COUTURE but I train hard and the benefits are real and hold my own against guys half my age all the time. I lost 30 pounds and am on my way to my goal weight hopefully getting there this year. In my younger days I trained TAE KWAN DO and got my BLACK BELT at 21 years old. Took up BJJ 3 years ago and received my BLUE BELT a year ago and train at BIG JOHN McCARTHY'S Training Academy (see pic below). I see a lot of ^^^^ talking going on around here and am curious how many of you guys actually train and where. Post some pics of yourselves training instead of talking all this crap and legitimize all the talking and calling people out from across the country. I don't get why there can't be fun discussion on the UFC and MMA in general without some guys needing to belittle others to make themselves look like a big shots. I have a lot to contribute to these discussions but would rather avoid all the counter productive ^^^^ talking.
LEFT to RIGHT:
The night we received our Jiu Jitsu BLUE BELTS .
My BRO'S : Jess , Tony , BIG JOHN , Mike , MYSELF and Coli
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Me? im just an ordinary citizen...never stepped foot in a gym before and never in a martial arts facility of any kind. I am 5'2 and weigh 270lbs... <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:14.25pt;height:14.25pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Chad\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image003.gif" o:href="https://sideshowcollectors.com/forums/images/smilies/monk5.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->
<!--[endif]-->As for trying to look like a tough guy nah wasnt trying to be one, nor do I have to. I was responding to someone while pissed off at the loss. However, posting pics and making sure that we all know the history of your illustrious martial arts career may be viewed just the same?
But seriously though. No need to push it any further, it's in the books and both GSP and Penn will move forward to a future hall of fame spot in MMA history.
And I still have to completely disagree with anyone saying that moving up a weight class doesnt matter. Sure, Penn wanted the fight, he wanted redemption for his prior loss to GSP...and Penn likes to do things his way even if it isn't the smartest thing to do.
I read a post fight interview and it was noted that GSP stepped into the octagon at around 180 lbs while Penn strugled to even stay at 168. Take note, his normal weight class is 155 which means he probably comes in at around 160 normally.
Call me full of ^^^^, call me a whiner, tell me im making excuses, whatever you want....but imo at least, these are legitimate facts and points to make and anything but excuses.
I don't disagree that GSP was the better fighter, and dominated Penn. But to say that the difference in weight is a non-factor is crazy talk. Even GSP in his post fight said that part of his main strategy for the fight was to come in heavier than normal to weigh Penn down and tire him out. Which worked like a charm.
I really hope we get to see GSP move up a class next time to fight Silva, the two best pound for pound.
I read a post fight interview and it was noted that GSP stepped into the octagon at around 180 lbs while Penn strugled to even stay at 168. Take note, his normal weight class is 155 which means he probably comes in at around 160 normally.
Call me full of ^^^^, call me a whiner, tell me im making excuses, whatever you want....but imo at least, these are legitimate facts and points to make and anything but excuses.
I don't disagree that GSP was the better fighter, and dominated Penn. But to say that the difference in weight is a non-factor is crazy talk. Even GSP in his post fight said that part of his main strategy for the fight was to come in heavier than normal to weigh Penn down and tire him out. Which worked like a charm.
I really hope we get to see GSP move up a class next time to fight Silva, the two best pound for pound.
ENDO-HUNTER
Super Freak
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Me? im just an ordinary citizen...never stepped foot in a gym before and never in a martial arts facility of any kind. I am 5'2 and weigh 270lbs... <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:14.25pt;height:14.25pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Chad\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image003.gif" o:href="https://sideshowcollectors.com/forums/images/smilies/monk5.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->
As for trying to look like a tough guy nah wasnt trying to be one, nor do I have to. I was responding to someone while pissed off at the loss. However, posting pics and making sure that we all know the history of your illustrious martial arts career may be viewed just the same?
But seriously though. No need to push it any further, it's in the books and both GSP and Penn will move forward to a future hall of fame spot in MMA history.
No problem NASH. I wasn't trying to brag or anything like that. Just proud of the fact that at 44 I am still in the game and achieved a BLUE belt in BJJ from a Gracie Black belt. Being this is a UFC / MMA thread I thought I would share a little and see if any others train around here and wouldn't mind posting some pics of their own. NASH , this wasn't a personal attack on you but as much ^^^^ as you were talking I figured you had plenty to share
My bad , I guess not. 
Maybe we should just start a MMA thread for guys that actually train and give us a place to discuss our illustrious martial arts careers Jeeeez bro that's a good one ...illustrious martial arts careersTo throw more ^^^^ on the fan, what do you guys think of this? I know it's a long read, but it makes some good points for both fighters.
I have to admit, during the end of the round I turned to my friends and said, wow GSP really gets good service in his corner huh. referring to the fact that his cornerman was rubbing him all over...but I didnt realize at the time that he was lubing him up.
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I'm tired of seeing all this absolutist bull^^^^ about the fight. Everyone thinks that either BJ got dominated because GSP is an amazing fighter, or that GSP was cheating like crazy and BJ should have won
Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in between.
I've re-watched the fight 3 times now, in HD, pausing, slow-mo, thoroughly analyzing everything that happened. So if you saw it once and are replying based on what you remember in your 4-beer haze, don't bother.
The truth is that GSP came out with an incredible game plan, adhered to the motto that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying", cheated just enough to not get penalized, and took advantage of the slippery slope that provided (sorry for the pun). GSP was not trying to beat BJ in a fight. He was trying to win a decision - he was playing a sport.
GSP's strategy was, as he stated, to slow BJ's boxing down by making him "push" for the first few rounds to tire his shoulders out. The credit for that goes to Jackson, not GSP. Wrestling is not the warriors way. American freestyle wrestling is a sport, a tamed version of combat. By out-wrestling BJ, he was able to take advantage of the ONLY advantage he had - size, not skill. Now on to the analysis.
In the first round striking exchanges, GSP was only landing jabs and a few right hands, taking advantage of his 6 inches of extra reach. There's not too much you can do about that. He was only using his strikes to set up clinches, and as stated ad nauseum, making it a wrestling match. It was clear that GSP was going to have a lot of trouble taking BJ down. The shorts-grabbing incident was the first sign that GSP was planning on fighting dirty. He was doing it on purpose. As round 1 ended, they were about even in the fight. Of course, GSP won the round on the score cards because he was applying more pressure and was in a dominant position more of the time. But he didn't do anything with that dominant position - and in my opinion, that shows a weakness.
Then we come to the controversy. The vasaline. Notice that after the cornerman applied the vasaline to georges face, he spends 10 seconds rubbing his temples. Why? to distract from the fact that he still had vasaline on his hands. He then rubs georges chest and back. To me, it looked like it was a conscious and purposeful move. It looked, to ME, like they were doing it on purpose.
In Round 2, BJ was winning the striking exchanges despite GSP's reach advantage. GSP's coaches told him to kickbox him, but GSP knew that he would lose, so he went back to the safe strategy - wrestle.
Now, around 3:45, you can see BJ reach high with his guard - and it just slips right down. Sure, this happens sometimes from sweat. But it's worth noticing that it happened this time. It keeps happening every time he reaches high with his guard. Every. Time.
Then GSP passes BJ's guard like butter. You can't deny Georges his props on that, his guard passing, not just here but throughout the entire fight, was excellent. It's a clue that GSP's BJJ is better than we may think - It's a shame he chooses to GnP people instead of using that BJJ to submit opponents. And that's just what he does for the rest of the round, GnP. It didn't look too horribly damaging, but it was certainly effective.
In between rounds 2 and 3, we see only a moment of the commission stepping in, and it's telling what we hear the redcoat say - "you were rubbing his back!" and then you see the black guy put something into his pocket, or throwing it away out of frame, you can't tell where the object really goes. Then you hear <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>lace w:st="on">Jackson</st1>lace></st1:city> saying "the inspector is here!" while the black guy, who had been greasing up GSP, looks to be smirking a bit (or it could just be the natural facial expression when your fighter appears to be winning.) The inspector then wipes down GSP with a towel - unfortunately, effectively spreading the vasaline around. All you need is a very, very thin layer, and cotton does not absorb it ladies and gents.
In round three, the tone of the rest of the fight begins to be established with GSP's pseudo-superman jab. An excellent punch to be sure, it clearly rattled BJ and I think it may have started the nose bleed. GSP's jabs were very effective in the first minute of this round, the way Penn's jab was stifling to Sherk. And once they were down, it was the beginning of the end. This is where GSP's "pushing" strategy becomes apparent. He doesn't try to finish Penn, he just tries to soften him up with arm punches to the body, and big punches/elbows to the head. When Penn gets back up (a moment which we have to give BJ mad props for - he was able to do exactly what GSP was trying to stop him from doing, what GSP is BEST at stopping people from doing, while GSP was still greased up!) he was unable to reverse the pattern of the fight and take GSP down. Instead GSP used the fence to take BJ down again, and spent the last minute of the round punching and elbowing BJ's head in the corner of the cage.
This is one of the reasons why I, personally, apart from just this fight, believe that the ring is the better place for fights than the cage. I think the ring encourages more skillful fighting, whereas the cage encourages brutish wrestlers. But this is just my personal opinion.
Now we also see between the third and fourth round that GSP's wonderfully sneaky cornerman rubs GSP's shoulders again - and immediately the official grabs a towel and starts wiping. The conspiracy theorist inside me wants to point out that as soon as the officials start, they cut to more highlights from the round, but that just seems like going too far. So I will simply mention it in case anyone else wants to be nutty and call it a conspiracy
Round 4. Joe Rogan nails it on the head - "BJ Penn is starting to look discouraged, and Georges St. Pierre is looking fired up"
BJ is doing what he can on his feet, but it is evident that <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>lace w:st="on">Jacksons</st1>lace></st1:city> strategy is working perfectly. All the body shots have slowed BJ's core movement considerably, and all the pushing has BJ's punches looking sluggish. 30 seconds in, GSP shoots in directly under a lazy jab from BJ, and it's pretty much all over from there. But that's not to compliment GSP. Over and over, he hits BJ DIRECTLY in the back of the head, in the EXACT spot where you are not supposed to. Herb Dean warns him once, twice, THREE separate instances in the span of a minute. The third time he doesn't threaten to take a point, he threatens to stand them up. Really, Herb? That many times in that short of a period of time, stopping and starting again and again - it was on purpose. Just like Jon Jones spinning back elbow to Stephan Bonnar illustrated earlier in the night, shots there are very disorienting. The beating continues for the rest of the round, but BJ keeps fighting back, trying to escape, regaining butterfly guard, punching back. He keeps fighting. He doesn't quit.
But his corner decides they've seen enough. Not BJ, his brother. The doctor agrees and that's that. But can you blame his brother? BJ had the warrior spirit, he didn't quit and he wasn't going to. He wasn't a ^^^^^ like GSP was against Serra. He could have tapped, he knew the fight wasn't going to be changing, but he was a man. He stayed in it until his family had seen enough.
I have to admit, during the end of the round I turned to my friends and said, wow GSP really gets good service in his corner huh. referring to the fact that his cornerman was rubbing him all over...but I didnt realize at the time that he was lubing him up.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm tired of seeing all this absolutist bull^^^^ about the fight. Everyone thinks that either BJ got dominated because GSP is an amazing fighter, or that GSP was cheating like crazy and BJ should have won
Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in between.
I've re-watched the fight 3 times now, in HD, pausing, slow-mo, thoroughly analyzing everything that happened. So if you saw it once and are replying based on what you remember in your 4-beer haze, don't bother.
The truth is that GSP came out with an incredible game plan, adhered to the motto that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying", cheated just enough to not get penalized, and took advantage of the slippery slope that provided (sorry for the pun). GSP was not trying to beat BJ in a fight. He was trying to win a decision - he was playing a sport.
GSP's strategy was, as he stated, to slow BJ's boxing down by making him "push" for the first few rounds to tire his shoulders out. The credit for that goes to Jackson, not GSP. Wrestling is not the warriors way. American freestyle wrestling is a sport, a tamed version of combat. By out-wrestling BJ, he was able to take advantage of the ONLY advantage he had - size, not skill. Now on to the analysis.
In the first round striking exchanges, GSP was only landing jabs and a few right hands, taking advantage of his 6 inches of extra reach. There's not too much you can do about that. He was only using his strikes to set up clinches, and as stated ad nauseum, making it a wrestling match. It was clear that GSP was going to have a lot of trouble taking BJ down. The shorts-grabbing incident was the first sign that GSP was planning on fighting dirty. He was doing it on purpose. As round 1 ended, they were about even in the fight. Of course, GSP won the round on the score cards because he was applying more pressure and was in a dominant position more of the time. But he didn't do anything with that dominant position - and in my opinion, that shows a weakness.
Then we come to the controversy. The vasaline. Notice that after the cornerman applied the vasaline to georges face, he spends 10 seconds rubbing his temples. Why? to distract from the fact that he still had vasaline on his hands. He then rubs georges chest and back. To me, it looked like it was a conscious and purposeful move. It looked, to ME, like they were doing it on purpose.
In Round 2, BJ was winning the striking exchanges despite GSP's reach advantage. GSP's coaches told him to kickbox him, but GSP knew that he would lose, so he went back to the safe strategy - wrestle.
Now, around 3:45, you can see BJ reach high with his guard - and it just slips right down. Sure, this happens sometimes from sweat. But it's worth noticing that it happened this time. It keeps happening every time he reaches high with his guard. Every. Time.
Then GSP passes BJ's guard like butter. You can't deny Georges his props on that, his guard passing, not just here but throughout the entire fight, was excellent. It's a clue that GSP's BJJ is better than we may think - It's a shame he chooses to GnP people instead of using that BJJ to submit opponents. And that's just what he does for the rest of the round, GnP. It didn't look too horribly damaging, but it was certainly effective.
In between rounds 2 and 3, we see only a moment of the commission stepping in, and it's telling what we hear the redcoat say - "you were rubbing his back!" and then you see the black guy put something into his pocket, or throwing it away out of frame, you can't tell where the object really goes. Then you hear <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>
lace w:st="on">Jackson</st1>lace></st1:city> saying "the inspector is here!" while the black guy, who had been greasing up GSP, looks to be smirking a bit (or it could just be the natural facial expression when your fighter appears to be winning.) The inspector then wipes down GSP with a towel - unfortunately, effectively spreading the vasaline around. All you need is a very, very thin layer, and cotton does not absorb it ladies and gents.In round three, the tone of the rest of the fight begins to be established with GSP's pseudo-superman jab. An excellent punch to be sure, it clearly rattled BJ and I think it may have started the nose bleed. GSP's jabs were very effective in the first minute of this round, the way Penn's jab was stifling to Sherk. And once they were down, it was the beginning of the end. This is where GSP's "pushing" strategy becomes apparent. He doesn't try to finish Penn, he just tries to soften him up with arm punches to the body, and big punches/elbows to the head. When Penn gets back up (a moment which we have to give BJ mad props for - he was able to do exactly what GSP was trying to stop him from doing, what GSP is BEST at stopping people from doing, while GSP was still greased up!) he was unable to reverse the pattern of the fight and take GSP down. Instead GSP used the fence to take BJ down again, and spent the last minute of the round punching and elbowing BJ's head in the corner of the cage.
This is one of the reasons why I, personally, apart from just this fight, believe that the ring is the better place for fights than the cage. I think the ring encourages more skillful fighting, whereas the cage encourages brutish wrestlers. But this is just my personal opinion.
Now we also see between the third and fourth round that GSP's wonderfully sneaky cornerman rubs GSP's shoulders again - and immediately the official grabs a towel and starts wiping. The conspiracy theorist inside me wants to point out that as soon as the officials start, they cut to more highlights from the round, but that just seems like going too far. So I will simply mention it in case anyone else wants to be nutty and call it a conspiracy
Round 4. Joe Rogan nails it on the head - "BJ Penn is starting to look discouraged, and Georges St. Pierre is looking fired up"
BJ is doing what he can on his feet, but it is evident that <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>
lace w:st="on">Jacksons</st1>lace></st1:city> strategy is working perfectly. All the body shots have slowed BJ's core movement considerably, and all the pushing has BJ's punches looking sluggish. 30 seconds in, GSP shoots in directly under a lazy jab from BJ, and it's pretty much all over from there. But that's not to compliment GSP. Over and over, he hits BJ DIRECTLY in the back of the head, in the EXACT spot where you are not supposed to. Herb Dean warns him once, twice, THREE separate instances in the span of a minute. The third time he doesn't threaten to take a point, he threatens to stand them up. Really, Herb? That many times in that short of a period of time, stopping and starting again and again - it was on purpose. Just like Jon Jones spinning back elbow to Stephan Bonnar illustrated earlier in the night, shots there are very disorienting. The beating continues for the rest of the round, but BJ keeps fighting back, trying to escape, regaining butterfly guard, punching back. He keeps fighting. He doesn't quit.But his corner decides they've seen enough. Not BJ, his brother. The doctor agrees and that's that. But can you blame his brother? BJ had the warrior spirit, he didn't quit and he wasn't going to. He wasn't a ^^^^^ like GSP was against Serra. He could have tapped, he knew the fight wasn't going to be changing, but he was a man. He stayed in it until his family had seen enough.
This explains why GSP passed BJ`s guard so easily,man this sucks really,specially for BJ Penn.
I googled it and many hits:
BJ has filed a complaint
https://www.totalprosports.com/blog/index.php/2009/02/ufc-94-gsp-vaseline-controversy/
I googled it and many hits:
BJ has filed a complaint
https://www.totalprosports.com/blog/index.php/2009/02/ufc-94-gsp-vaseline-controversy/
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