URGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGENT!!
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vareika
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
I have about $700 lost to Moe - so sad.
I have about $700 lost to Moe - so sad.
SchmittyJames
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
I've been waiting for:
1x Breaking Bad Chem Suit - $135
1x Walking Dead S2 Rick Shirt - $85
$220 in total, what a shame.
This seriously killed my joy for 1/6 customs.
I've been waiting for:
1x Breaking Bad Chem Suit - $135
1x Walking Dead S2 Rick Shirt - $85
$220 in total, what a shame.
This seriously killed my joy for 1/6 customs.
Last edited:
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Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
I love how one or two times a year a customizer will completely **** a bunch of people out of thousands of dollars on here. Dont get me wrong I feel bad for you guys, but what are you expecting when you give someone money 6 months to a year in advance of possibly seeing a finished product? I know these guys need some upfront dough to get the ball rolling and stuff, but theres no protection for you or recourse when it goes south...
are you guys really surprised that this happens with the model you use to fund this kind of stuff...? I dont know of a better one, I just think you guys should come up with a better way of doing things, seems far too easy to woo people and gain their trust on here
I love how one or two times a year a customizer will completely **** a bunch of people out of thousands of dollars on here. Dont get me wrong I feel bad for you guys, but what are you expecting when you give someone money 6 months to a year in advance of possibly seeing a finished product? I know these guys need some upfront dough to get the ball rolling and stuff, but theres no protection for you or recourse when it goes south...
are you guys really surprised that this happens with the model you use to fund this kind of stuff...? I dont know of a better one, I just think you guys should come up with a better way of doing things, seems far too easy to woo people and gain their trust on here
SchmittyJames
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
When the person who ****s us over is trusted and has been selling for a while then yeah, it surprises me.
But I get what you're saying, it's a big lesson for me.
When the person who ****s us over is trusted and has been selling for a while then yeah, it surprises me.
But I get what you're saying, it's a big lesson for me.
toylion
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
The Problem is this isn't the first time, second time or even the third time someone "Trusted" has "****s" the members of this board. It keeps happening and until people stop sending money for stuff that doesn't get delivered for 6 month or more it going to happen again.
The Problem is this isn't the first time, second time or even the third time someone "Trusted" has "****s" the members of this board. It keeps happening and until people stop sending money for stuff that doesn't get delivered for 6 month or more it going to happen again.
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Yeah, maybe there should be a rule on this forum that it can't be used for the exchange of money for services that aren't delivered within Paypal's dispute window. What is it, 45 days? Everything else should maybe be through Kickstarter.
Yeah, maybe there should be a rule on this forum that it can't be used for the exchange of money for services that aren't delivered within Paypal's dispute window. What is it, 45 days? Everything else should maybe be through Kickstarter.
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Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
There does not need to be any added rules to the forums here, all that is required is personal responsibility on the part of the buyer.
When you agree to purchase a custom item, tell the customizer up front that if it is not received within 45 days, you will either expect the funds to be returned or you will open a case. If the customizer does not agree, then walk. If the customizer agrees, then proceed as normal. If after 40 days, there is no tracking or shipment, ask for the funds to be returned. After 44 days, open the case.
There does not need to be any added rules to the forums here, all that is required is personal responsibility on the part of the buyer.
When you agree to purchase a custom item, tell the customizer up front that if it is not received within 45 days, you will either expect the funds to be returned or you will open a case. If the customizer does not agree, then walk. If the customizer agrees, then proceed as normal. If after 40 days, there is no tracking or shipment, ask for the funds to be returned. After 44 days, open the case.
Vortex
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Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
And instead of 1 or 2 waves, their needs to be as many waves as needed so everyone ordering the product falls within the 44 day window.
And instead of 1 or 2 waves, their needs to be as many waves as needed so everyone ordering the product falls within the 44 day window.
Doom Saber
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
I agree. The mentality of the boards here is that we would pay for anything as long as a customizer offers here. Either celebrity customizer is someone who made a reputation of him/herself through professional means or someone who made a reputation here. Moe is certainly the latter as he was a newbie on these forums when he first started. I take that back, it doesn't have to be a celebrity here. It can be anyone.
Remember the teenage customizer who ripped off a lot of people here months ago despite not having a thorough profile of his work? Like a few other artist, he probably wanted to start doing legit, but realized that the work is too much for him to manage. People give a lot of blind faith here expecting that the artist is honest. Time and time shows that anybody can take a few photos here and there, present it as his own, and then get a lot of people sending them thousands of dollars just to be ripped off.
I am sorry that the above paragraph sounds harsh, but it seems that a huge scam happens on SSF every year. I remember when this forum used to accept group buys. That disappeared into something more cryptic because not only people like Chris Howes ripped people off by taking deposits, other artists were charging a lot for their sculpts that aren't even Trevor quality.
I think the mentally of the board has to change whereas not only we have to be more cautious in buying goods here, we also have to draw the line on how much a custom piece should cost. During the Chris Howes days, headsculpts by customizers were 80 bucks a piece regardless of the size of the group buy. These prices were made by non professionals. Nowadays, the average headsculpts are sculpted professionally for around $50 dollars without any deposits or group buys.
Not trying to blame Kato, but like Hot Toys, I think we SSF members send a message to the community by having no quarrels paying for high price clothing that aren't even made by Kato, causing other people like Moe to charge Kato prices for outfits that may not be of the same quality. We then complain why the hobby has gotten so super expensive over the course of a decade.
Likewise, we make it okay for long turnarounds for services we paid for. I can't really attack this as I am sure there are a few artists here who are extremely busy and are using their spare time to make custom pieces, however, a lot of the people who ends up ripping people off use time as a means as an excuse.
I don't want to see the custom forums go away (it went away in the past because of people being ripped off in the past) as it showcases potential talent that would end up doing professional figures such as Kato and Silent Surfer. However, I can see the members of the forum talking about removing the option to buy customs as that has been brought up before. I honestly think that there should be a more rigorous policy in selling custom goods here like being in the business for 4 years or more and having a facebook site (like Geewhiz) or having the goods be sold through a make it as you pay site like Shapeways. I guess with the case of clothing, Perhaps have a rule where the seller has to have the goods in hand before accepting cash here or restricting the amount of soft goods a seamstresses can sell at a time (to give him or her time to take breaks between runs) and be given a quick turnaround terms of service. Having this rule would weed out middle men like Moe, but also not punish the seamstresses for the actions of dishonest people.
I think the forum members themselves have to be more cautious in how they spend their money and who they send it to because if it doesn't change, people will not only get ripped off every year, but prices on other goods will go up because we vote by our wallets.
I agree. The mentality of the boards here is that we would pay for anything as long as a customizer offers here. Either celebrity customizer is someone who made a reputation of him/herself through professional means or someone who made a reputation here. Moe is certainly the latter as he was a newbie on these forums when he first started. I take that back, it doesn't have to be a celebrity here. It can be anyone.
Remember the teenage customizer who ripped off a lot of people here months ago despite not having a thorough profile of his work? Like a few other artist, he probably wanted to start doing legit, but realized that the work is too much for him to manage. People give a lot of blind faith here expecting that the artist is honest. Time and time shows that anybody can take a few photos here and there, present it as his own, and then get a lot of people sending them thousands of dollars just to be ripped off.
I am sorry that the above paragraph sounds harsh, but it seems that a huge scam happens on SSF every year. I remember when this forum used to accept group buys. That disappeared into something more cryptic because not only people like Chris Howes ripped people off by taking deposits, other artists were charging a lot for their sculpts that aren't even Trevor quality.
I think the mentally of the board has to change whereas not only we have to be more cautious in buying goods here, we also have to draw the line on how much a custom piece should cost. During the Chris Howes days, headsculpts by customizers were 80 bucks a piece regardless of the size of the group buy. These prices were made by non professionals. Nowadays, the average headsculpts are sculpted professionally for around $50 dollars without any deposits or group buys.
Not trying to blame Kato, but like Hot Toys, I think we SSF members send a message to the community by having no quarrels paying for high price clothing that aren't even made by Kato, causing other people like Moe to charge Kato prices for outfits that may not be of the same quality. We then complain why the hobby has gotten so super expensive over the course of a decade.
Likewise, we make it okay for long turnarounds for services we paid for. I can't really attack this as I am sure there are a few artists here who are extremely busy and are using their spare time to make custom pieces, however, a lot of the people who ends up ripping people off use time as a means as an excuse.
I don't want to see the custom forums go away (it went away in the past because of people being ripped off in the past) as it showcases potential talent that would end up doing professional figures such as Kato and Silent Surfer. However, I can see the members of the forum talking about removing the option to buy customs as that has been brought up before. I honestly think that there should be a more rigorous policy in selling custom goods here like being in the business for 4 years or more and having a facebook site (like Geewhiz) or having the goods be sold through a make it as you pay site like Shapeways. I guess with the case of clothing, Perhaps have a rule where the seller has to have the goods in hand before accepting cash here or restricting the amount of soft goods a seamstresses can sell at a time (to give him or her time to take breaks between runs) and be given a quick turnaround terms of service. Having this rule would weed out middle men like Moe, but also not punish the seamstresses for the actions of dishonest people.
I think the forum members themselves have to be more cautious in how they spend their money and who they send it to because if it doesn't change, people will not only get ripped off every year, but prices on other goods will go up because we vote by our wallets.
Doom Saber
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
I don't think that is reasonable for the seamstress since as a lot of them do this as a hobby and I imagine that a seamstress helmed by one person getting 100 requests to make 500 chem suits with money up front would be overwhelmed and end up ripping people off for being delayed. I think having a smaller run of a few waves followed with a wishlist would be more reasonable for a seamstress to tackle. Sure it would suck that not everyone would get in on the run, but look at the custom headsculpts sold here. a lot of the runs for heads are smaller here. Maybe around 20-30 heads. Making casts is not as time consuming as making outfits.
I do like the 44 day policy however. I think to enforce such a policy, having the person's SSF account flagged. I also think perhaps having the customizer sellers pay a membership like the regular sellers here so that not everyone can simply come here and sell wares.
And instead of 1 or 2 waves, their needs to be as many waves as needed so everyone ordering the product falls within the 44 day window.
I don't think that is reasonable for the seamstress since as a lot of them do this as a hobby and I imagine that a seamstress helmed by one person getting 100 requests to make 500 chem suits with money up front would be overwhelmed and end up ripping people off for being delayed. I think having a smaller run of a few waves followed with a wishlist would be more reasonable for a seamstress to tackle. Sure it would suck that not everyone would get in on the run, but look at the custom headsculpts sold here. a lot of the runs for heads are smaller here. Maybe around 20-30 heads. Making casts is not as time consuming as making outfits.
I do like the 44 day policy however. I think to enforce such a policy, having the person's SSF account flagged. I also think perhaps having the customizer sellers pay a membership like the regular sellers here so that not everyone can simply come here and sell wares.
Cheungkinmen
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Well, the 45 days window is a little bit stretchy IMO. We have to stick to the tailor's schedule if he/she takes more than 2 months, then it would be a little difficult for us to manage. I for one refunded back deposits made from people on my Freddie project because I knew it would take a little more time to complete, but it's not something that can be always done once the money is passed on to tailoring. Also, painting heads is no easy task when you have 30+ sculpts wainting to complete, let alone molding, casting and mastering the casts, assembling, etc. But I guess this is not the customers concern.
I guess Moe killed the trust people had on customizers and the like, it's sad to see this. I can say I'm always 100% invested in my works and in communication, those who have bought from me knows this, but would people believe me as an artist ? or in any other artist in the board offering works ?, it's hard to tell now. I for one would like to say that if I don't ever deliver something is because I died.
Well, the 45 days window is a little bit stretchy IMO. We have to stick to the tailor's schedule if he/she takes more than 2 months, then it would be a little difficult for us to manage. I for one refunded back deposits made from people on my Freddie project because I knew it would take a little more time to complete, but it's not something that can be always done once the money is passed on to tailoring. Also, painting heads is no easy task when you have 30+ sculpts wainting to complete, let alone molding, casting and mastering the casts, assembling, etc. But I guess this is not the customers concern.
I guess Moe killed the trust people had on customizers and the like, it's sad to see this. I can say I'm always 100% invested in my works and in communication, those who have bought from me knows this, but would people believe me as an artist ? or in any other artist in the board offering works ?, it's hard to tell now. I for one would like to say that if I don't ever deliver something is because I died.
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Well said JOhnny. There are a lot of good people on here... Let's not make a few bad apples ruin the whole customs side.
It is hard when you have to rely on others... But we all get there in the end.
Let's make this about one person. Not the whole customs world...
It is an unfortunate thing what has happened here. It is terrible that people have lost money.
Well said JOhnny. There are a lot of good people on here... Let's not make a few bad apples ruin the whole customs side.
It is hard when you have to rely on others... But we all get there in the end.
Let's make this about one person. Not the whole customs world...
It is an unfortunate thing what has happened here. It is terrible that people have lost money.
Cheungkinmen
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Thanks man, but to be honest Moe was trusted!, he was on this board longer than I were, that's the sickest lowblow this forum has received I think, based on the money he bagged. Talking about sleeping with the enemy...
Well said JOhnny. There are a lot of good people on here... Let's not make a few bad apples ruin the whole customs side.
It is hard when you have to rely on others... But we all get there in the end.
Let's make this about one person. Not the whole customs world...
It is an unfortunate thing what has happened here. It is terrible that people have lost money.
Thanks man, but to be honest Moe was trusted!, he was on this board longer than I were, that's the sickest lowblow this forum has received I think, based on the money he bagged. Talking about sleeping with the enemy...
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
After just completing a run myself in a fairly brisk manner considering all the artists involved, in 5 months from start to finished shipping, I know theres no way the paypal window is realistic.
There is a buyer beware sticky in the customs section I believe, and thats how the customs section should work, if you dont trust the artist, don't commit to the project. Most projects have updates at least once a week or pics of the progress. With Moe, no one was seeing any progress, only broken promises of a delivery date. Thats when a flag should be raised imo.
The 45 day window for any custom run with at least 30 or so sets(sculpts and clothes) or even just sculpts is ridiculous. No customizer has ever delivered in that timeframe, most are 4-12 months.
Well said JOhnny. There are a lot of good people on here... Let's not make a few bad apples ruin the whole customs side.
It is hard when you have to rely on others... But we all get there in the end.
Let's make this about one person. Not the whole customs world...
It is an unfortunate thing what has happened here. It is terrible that people have lost money.
After just completing a run myself in a fairly brisk manner considering all the artists involved, in 5 months from start to finished shipping, I know theres no way the paypal window is realistic.
There is a buyer beware sticky in the customs section I believe, and thats how the customs section should work, if you dont trust the artist, don't commit to the project. Most projects have updates at least once a week or pics of the progress. With Moe, no one was seeing any progress, only broken promises of a delivery date. Thats when a flag should be raised imo.
toylion
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
And if you do decide to commit, do so at your own risk.
And if you do decide to commit, do so at your own risk.
galactiboy
OT Preferist
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
The problem with custom figure projects and runs is cashflow... it takes a lot of money to pay for outfits, casting supplies, etc. Let's say it's a low estimate of $200 for an outfit and another $100 for head, accessories and paint. So we now have a total of $6,000 invested to make 20 figures. So rather than one person having $6,000 tied up, 20 people have $300.
So who should put up the money and assume the risk?
1) Ideally it would be the person producing the figure... they would market the product, produce a prototype (or at least have a track record of producing such a thing) and then make a run based on the generated interest. And then collect money once the product is done or near completion.
2) In the case of the group projects it gets more complicated. With Amsterdam you had Moe "supplying" outfits, another member a head and a 3rd member accessories. So then who puts up the money? Should each one put up their own section of the project, maybe split it evenly? And what happens if one person doesn't deliver... are buyers stuck with a head and accessories but no outfit?
3) And then what really happens. The buyer puts up the money.
I think with the group projects it's probably not fair to have one person assume the risk... because usually they are not making any money off of the transaction but acting as an an uncompensated middle-man. Although that's also problematic as that middle-man also get's all the heat of stuff goes south. At one point their was supposed to a rule against having proxy's start and manage threads... but that didn't last long as no one followed it.
I do believe if someone is selling and making money off of the figures then it's really fair that they take and assume the risk. As a buyer my best case scenario is to get the product I agreed to pay for, but as the seller the best case scenario is to make a solid profit off the items sold. Seems backwards to me that the person who stands to profit from the venture should also not have any money invested. On top of that, once money has been made the motivation to deliver on a product tends to drop off... people by nature work harder when they expect to get something than if they are expected to work after being compensated.
Now some might say "well that's not fair"... well is it fair that 20 people are out $300 dollars when they paid it on time and in good faith? Or that even if the item is eventually delivered that it takes 3 months to 6 months to a year longer than originally promised.
Or maybe even say, "well where is someone going to get all that money to start a project?" How does anyone start a business, they save towards it, take out a loan or get investors/partners who will share the burden. I can't think of many successful businesses where the customer supplies the money and assumes all the risk. And maybe if you can't put up the money to fund a poject you shouldn't style yourself as a business person.
What I predict will happen is some people will be more careful or even turn away from custom figures. While others will take their place and we'll all just barrel on until the next Moe, Chris Howes or Blind Voyeur pops up and takes off with a lot of money. Maybe they're already here and we don't know it yet
Having said all that, maybe the best resolution is going with deposits. There is still risk involved, but maybe if it's spread out evenly we'd have less shenanigins.
The problem with custom figure projects and runs is cashflow... it takes a lot of money to pay for outfits, casting supplies, etc. Let's say it's a low estimate of $200 for an outfit and another $100 for head, accessories and paint. So we now have a total of $6,000 invested to make 20 figures. So rather than one person having $6,000 tied up, 20 people have $300.
So who should put up the money and assume the risk?
1) Ideally it would be the person producing the figure... they would market the product, produce a prototype (or at least have a track record of producing such a thing) and then make a run based on the generated interest. And then collect money once the product is done or near completion.
2) In the case of the group projects it gets more complicated. With Amsterdam you had Moe "supplying" outfits, another member a head and a 3rd member accessories. So then who puts up the money? Should each one put up their own section of the project, maybe split it evenly? And what happens if one person doesn't deliver... are buyers stuck with a head and accessories but no outfit?
3) And then what really happens. The buyer puts up the money.
I think with the group projects it's probably not fair to have one person assume the risk... because usually they are not making any money off of the transaction but acting as an an uncompensated middle-man. Although that's also problematic as that middle-man also get's all the heat of stuff goes south. At one point their was supposed to a rule against having proxy's start and manage threads... but that didn't last long as no one followed it.
I do believe if someone is selling and making money off of the figures then it's really fair that they take and assume the risk. As a buyer my best case scenario is to get the product I agreed to pay for, but as the seller the best case scenario is to make a solid profit off the items sold. Seems backwards to me that the person who stands to profit from the venture should also not have any money invested. On top of that, once money has been made the motivation to deliver on a product tends to drop off... people by nature work harder when they expect to get something than if they are expected to work after being compensated.
Now some might say "well that's not fair"... well is it fair that 20 people are out $300 dollars when they paid it on time and in good faith? Or that even if the item is eventually delivered that it takes 3 months to 6 months to a year longer than originally promised.
Or maybe even say, "well where is someone going to get all that money to start a project?" How does anyone start a business, they save towards it, take out a loan or get investors/partners who will share the burden. I can't think of many successful businesses where the customer supplies the money and assumes all the risk. And maybe if you can't put up the money to fund a poject you shouldn't style yourself as a business person.
What I predict will happen is some people will be more careful or even turn away from custom figures. While others will take their place and we'll all just barrel on until the next Moe, Chris Howes or Blind Voyeur pops up and takes off with a lot of money. Maybe they're already here and we don't know it yet
Having said all that, maybe the best resolution is going with deposits. There is still risk involved, but maybe if it's spread out evenly we'd have less shenanigins.
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robbiethepainter
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Valid points and I agree.
Valid points and I agree.
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
Perhaps just limit the amount of runs per artist, moe had how many open runs going on, perhaps 2 runs per artist at a time, maybe even 1 to limit the possibility of a massive money hit to a lot of people.
Once everyone on the list has their item the artist needs to get the thread closed or unpostable, or remove their paypal address from the first page, then they can start a new project or run.
Perhaps just limit the amount of runs per artist, moe had how many open runs going on, perhaps 2 runs per artist at a time, maybe even 1 to limit the possibility of a massive money hit to a lot of people.
Once everyone on the list has their item the artist needs to get the thread closed or unpostable, or remove their paypal address from the first page, then they can start a new project or run.
Doom Saber
Super Freak
Re: UEGENT!!-anybody who is owed clothing from moe's production's must read this-URGE
While I do agree that the artist shouldn't be punished and I don't want to see the ones who have always been there to get punished, the forums had been ripped off by a lot of artists in the past. I don't think people such as yourself, Kato, or Geewhiz should be punished, which is why I think for customizers who do not have a reputation of making customs goods for purchase (like 4 years or more) should have restrictions here. I think it should apply to industry ppl who do have no experience making garage fan kits. For instance, someone like Trevor shouldn't be restricted since he has made heads for fans in the past, but someone like Chris Howes, while a person who created heads of 1/6 scale for toy companies, never experienced making 1/6 heads for fans.
It is fairly clear to see someone like you or Geewhiz not screwing people up since you guys have built your reputation over the years on different forums.
While I do agree that the artist shouldn't be punished and I don't want to see the ones who have always been there to get punished, the forums had been ripped off by a lot of artists in the past. I don't think people such as yourself, Kato, or Geewhiz should be punished, which is why I think for customizers who do not have a reputation of making customs goods for purchase (like 4 years or more) should have restrictions here. I think it should apply to industry ppl who do have no experience making garage fan kits. For instance, someone like Trevor shouldn't be restricted since he has made heads for fans in the past, but someone like Chris Howes, while a person who created heads of 1/6 scale for toy companies, never experienced making 1/6 heads for fans.
It is fairly clear to see someone like you or Geewhiz not screwing people up since you guys have built your reputation over the years on different forums.
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