Walt Disney World and Disneyland(s) Discussion

[cokebabies]

Damn, crazy jealous here. How did you get in Club 33?

A membership there is definitely one of my bucket list items, although I don't hold much hope at all.

 

[Coheteboy]

Damn, crazy jealous here. How did you get in Club 33?

A membership there is definitely one of my bucket list items, although I don't hold much hope at all.

Knew someone who knew someone who knew someone. I don't think I'll ever have my own membership to the club.

 

[cokebabies]

Well eating there / getting in once is more than most people can say, so that is still really awesome.

I'll check out the sample menus and think "I'd much rather eat the food at Blue Bayou or '55." But just being able to eat in Club 33, I'd eat cat food, just for the experience of being in there.

 

[Coheteboy]

Well eating there / getting in once is more than most people can say, so that is still really awesome.

I'll check out the sample menus and think "I'd much rather eat the food at Blue Bayou or '55." But just being able to eat in Club 33, I'd eat cat food, just for the experience of being in there.

:::sheepishly:::

That was my fourth time dining there.


Here's pics from my 3rd trip 3 years ago...

 

[cokebabies]

I need better friend of a friend of a friend of a friends.

 

[Coheteboy]

I need better friend of a friend of a friend of a friends.

You know, you'd be surprised just how many people know someone who knows someone who works at a company that has a corporate membership. The four times I got in were not from people who actually had memberships but they happen to work at companies that do. Generally these companies are sponsors for attractions at the park like Dole Pineapple, Chevron, etc. Even GE has a corporate membership... and it was actually GE that spawned the creation of Club 33. They had a lounge above their Carousel of Progress in New York and when it moved to Disneyland they wanted to have the same thing. When Disney refused, a compromise in the form of Club 33 became a reality.

There's talk of Disney California Adventure having their own club as well inside the Carthay Circle Theater. Not sure if that's still happening.

 

[cokebabies]

If I knew someone who worked for Dole, I'd be dead within weeks from a Dole Whip overdose.

 

[Agent0028]

I laugh because I'm in the same boat.

 

[Coheteboy]

Today is Magic Kingdom's 40th anniversary. A shame they didn't plan Fantasyland to open THIS year instead of next. Would have been a great birthday present.

 

[Protozaius]

Wow... the Club 33 photos were amazing! Very cool to see how it looks in the inside... since there is NO way I'll ever see it.

Speaking of WDW's 40th, I just finished a book called "Realityland" by David Koenig about the building of WDW. I've enjoyed reading Koenig's books in the past on Disneyland ("Mouse Tales and "More Mouse Tales") so I thought I'd give this one a look see. Very interesting. I feel that his approach has always been from the point of view of a fan... his goal is not to tear down the Disney parks but to report on some of the insider details behind the making of the parks as well as the changes made over the years; providing the average Disney fan with insider info that Disney hasn't made public.

Anyone else read his books? Any thoughts?

 

[Coheteboy]

Wow... the Club 33 photos were amazing! Very cool to see how it looks in the inside... since there is NO way I'll ever see it.

Speaking of WDW's 40th, I just finished a book called "Realityland" by David Koenig about the building of WDW. I've enjoyed reading Koenig's books in the past on Disneyland ("Mouse Tales and "More Mouse Tales") so I thought I'd give this one a look see. Very interesting. I feel that his approach has always been from the point of view of a fan... his goal is not to tear down the Disney parks but to report on some of the insider details behind the making of the parks as well as the changes made over the years; providing the average Disney fan with insider info that Disney hasn't made public.

Anyone else read his books? Any thoughts?

I was actually one of the many people he interviewed in the creation of his Mouse Tales book. I don't recall if he used any particular story of mine but it helped him narrow down fact from fiction I'm sure.

I haven't read the WDW book. Anything interesting that you found... well... interesting?

 

[Protozaius]

I've always been interested in how Walt's dream of the World of EPCOT de-evolved into the amusement park that now rests on it's grounds. This book takes you step by step to the park that is known simply as "Epcot".

After Walt's death, it's easy to see how that dream died. Because the dreamer was gone. Nobody other that Walt shared his vision for the City of Tomorrow. Yet, reading this book, I can't help but be struck by how misguided Walt's dream actually was. He dreamed of a place where American industries and companies openly shared technologies for the betterment of mankind... where the rest of the world would look in and see the strength of good old American know-how.. However in a free enterprise capitalistic system, American industry is far too proprietorial about their discoveries. And is the lack of technology really the plight of man?

It was also interesting to read about the possible hostile takeover that almost destoryed the Disney company as a whole in the '80's. Although the parks were successful, the movie division wasn't so healthy. Since that was the face that people saw, the stocks tended to be undervalued. So to Wall Street, the company looked ripe to be bought out and broken apart and sold in pieces for a quick profit. With that in mind, Saul Steinberg, a Gordon Gekko wannabe, amassed more than 12 percent of Disney shares. Terrified, Disney paid Steinberg $52 for those shares. This made Disney look more vulnerable than ever. Roy Disney, Walt's nephew, became instrumental in avoiding the corporate vultures.

Here are some other tidbits that I got from the book:

- Space Mountain was the first E-Ticket ride that premiered first at Magic Kingdom. It was elaborately themed... perhaps too much so. Initially, cast members were not allowed to tell guests that the ride was a rollercoaster. And there were no warning signs to prepare the guest for what they were in for. Never before had a rollercoater been a dark ride. One 67 year old woman who suffered a broken bone in her spine said she was expecting a slow, panoramic ride in outer space, like It's A Small World.

- Originally Disney-MGM Studios was going to have a section of that park devoted to the Muppets called The Muppet Studios. Not only was there going to be the MuppetVision 3D movie theater, but a Muppet stage show, Muppet parade and a Muppets Movie Ride taking guests on "a misguiuded tour through movie history". But Jim Henson died before the deal closed. A stage show and parade did finally premiere but they didn't last long.

- The Disney-MGM Studios was announced at Michael Eisner first share holders meeting in 1985. Eisner knew of Universal's plan to break ground in Florida. He was president of Paramount Pictures when Universal came to them to help build the park in 1981. Eisner wanted to beat them to the punch... VERY un-Disney like behavior from Disney's new CEO. Initially, MGM was added to the name because Disney didn't have films like Gone With The Wind and Wizard of Oz to their name. MGM added historic movie cred. Even one attraction, "Castastrophe Canyon" part of Disney-MGM Studios tram ride actually came from Universal's planned tram attraction called "Hollywood Canyon Disaster". This started a "Tour War" between the two parks. Angry over the theft, Universal pulled plans for a tram tour completely out of their Florida park.

- The book also talks about the change in Main Street over the years. How it evolved from an important piece in Walt's show to one long souvenir shop. It was a sad development, but in retropect a necessary one to keep the parks in the black.

- The book goes into detail on how the countries in the World Showcase were selected. Originally the each country would sponsor it's own pavilion in World Showcase. However, WDW ended up footing most of the bill causing them to scale back plans. The once planned Switzerland Pavilion was suppose to have a replica of the Matterhorn ride. Mexico and Canada were selected as the entry points to World Showcase due to being our closest neighbors.

- I also didn't know how the events of 9/11 crippled WDW. Thousands of layoffs. Port Orleans Resort was closed. The Disney Institute was closed. The influx of unskilled low paid workers helped lower the Disney guest service standard. Construction of the budget hotel Pop Century was halted and half of the planned hotel would never be built.

 

[Coheteboy]

Thanks for the recap. It's always interesting how WDW unfolded and it's kind of a shame that Disney wasn't alive to really push it forward. Did the book talk about how Pirates of the Caribbean was shoe-horned into the park because guests went expecting to see it and were severely disappointed? Marc Davis intended on building a Western River Expedition like attraction similar to Pirates but about cowboys and such. That never happened obviously.

And also that MGM Studios evolved from an Epcot Pavillion and became its own park.

Here's what I don't buy though:

- The book also talks about the change in Main Street over the years. How it evolved from an important piece in Walt's show to one long souvenir shop. It was a sad development, but in retropect a necessary one to keep the parks in the black.

WDW is the number one visited resort so why does all of Main Street need to be dumbed down into generic shops? They have Downtown Disney for that now. I don't think it was needed to stay in the black. I just think the managers were/are short-sighted into thinking short term gains would be better than long term.

 

[Coheteboy]

Also, there's a book called "IN SERVICE TO THE MOUSE" by Disneyland's First President Jack Lindquist. He also had Walt Disney World under his wing for a period of time during his tenure and was even part of the team that had to travel to the other countries to pitch World Showcase. There's a few chapters in his book devoted to some of those trips and it's a fascinating look into that bit of history.

 

[Protozaius]

Thanks for the recap. It's always interesting how WDW unfolded and it's kind of a shame that Disney wasn't alive to really push it forward. Did the book talk about how Pirates of the Caribbean was shoe-horned into the park because guests went expecting to see it and were severely disappointed? Marc Davis intended on building a Western River Expedition like attraction similar to Pirates but about cowboys and such. That never happened obviously.

Yep... on page 100.

It stated that when the park opened, it woeful lacked attractions... especially ones that could handle thousands of guests an hour. In the first five months of the Magic Kingdoms opening, the biggest complaint from guests was "Where's "Pirates"? The corporate execs failed to realize that in just five years "Pirates" had become Disneyland's most famous ride. So they shelved plans for "Western River Expedition" in favor of "Pirates".

Apparently, Marc Davis was FURIOUS. To placate him, they allowed him to slightly change the ride and add a few scenes such as a drunk pirate with a cat and a finale with soldiers tied up in an armory and the pirates getting the loot. The redo also gave Disney a chance to "improve" it by shortening the set up through the dark caverns. According to the book, the caves were built at Disneyland only to fill space in a smaller show building that the plans had outgrown.

Yet while Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean is commonly acknowledged as the world's greatest theme park ride, WDW "improved" version would be view as just another ride. According to Imagineer Tony Baxter, "The Pirate ride in Florida has never garnered the same mystique as the one in California. And I'm convinced that there's a level of removal that goes on a you descend deeper and deeper into this dreamlike state where finally at the last lowest level it all comes to life. The characters are there, alive and so forth. In Florida you just put your packages away, you cast off and - boom - you're in the city.... And the romance of the Blue Bayou is gone and all those things that really help to set this one up. I think the lesson learned in Florida was you can't race people into something whether it's a queue line or it's a conditioning experience."

 

[Coheteboy]

Yep... on page 100.

It stated that when the park opened, it woeful lacked attractions... especially ones that could handle thousands of guests an hour. In the first five months of the Magic Kingdoms opening, the biggest complaint from guests was "Where's "Pirates"? The corporate execs failed to realize that in just five years "Pirates" had become Disneyland's most famous ride. So they shelved plans for "Western River Expedition" in favor of "Pirates".

Apparently, Marc Davis was FURIOUS. To placate him, they allowed him to slightly change the ride and add a few scenes such as a drunk pirate with a cat and a finale with soldiers tied up in an armory and the pirates getting the loot. The redo also gave Disney a chance to "improve" it by shortening the set up through the dark caverns. According to the book, the caves were built at Disneyland only to fill space in a smaller show building that the plans had outgrown.

Yet while Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean is commonly acknowledged as the world's greatest theme park ride, WDW "improved" version would be view as just another ride. According to Imagineer Tony Baxter, "The Pirate ride in Florida has never garnered the same mystique as the one in California. And I'm convinced that there's a level of removal that goes on a you descend deeper and deeper into this dreamlike state where finally at the last lowest level it all comes to life. The characters are there, alive and so forth. In Florida you just put your packages away, you cast off and - boom - you're in the city.... And the romance of the Blue Bayou is gone and all those things that really help to set this one up. I think the lesson learned in Florida was you can't race people into something whether it's a queue line or it's a conditioning experience."

MGM Studios woefully lacked attractions too. And Disney's Animal Kingdom. It's a terrible trend and I don't understand why the company feels that the public is OKAY with that?

Disney's California Adventure opened with that same train of thought... with very few attractions. Their excuse was that Disneyland opened with minimal attractions too and expanded over the years to become what it is now. I think that's baloney because times have changed. In 1955, Disneyland was a game changer. Now, it's not about just another Disney park... it needs to be the next great execution. Tokyo Disney Sea did that where the stateside theme parks failed.



Back to Pirates of the Caribbean, the long caverns in Disneyland's version was essentially where the "walk-through Pirate museum" was intended to be but once they decided to make it a flume ride, the showbuilding built backstage was where the bulk of the ride would take place.

Also, Disneyland's Pirates has two drops because it needed to go underneath the Disneyland Railroad tracks to arrive at the show building outside of the berm. Florida wasn't built with those parameters so it only had a smaller drop and shorter ride overall.

 

[cokebabies]

Yet, reading this book, I can't help but be struck by how misguided Walt's dream actually was. He dreamed of a place where American industries and companies openly shared technologies for the betterment of mankind... where the rest of the world would look in and see the strength of good old American know-how.

 

[cokebabies]

Florida wasn't built with those parameters so it only had a smaller drop and shorter ride overall.

This, for me, is one of the absolute biggest advantages DLR has over WDW. The parts in DLR's Pirates leading up to the opening cannon battle is actually my favorite part of the ride.

 

[Coheteboy]

This, for me, is one of the absolute biggest advantages DLR has over WDW. The parts in DLR's Pirates leading up to the opening cannon battle is actually my favorite part of the ride.

Agreed. It really sets it up.


As for me personally, I wish Walt Disney World planners had the know-how to open Magic Kingdom with more attractions than it did. By 1971, Disneyland has already been operating for over 15 years and with its own tv show, everybody in the entire nation knew of all the cool attractions that have been put into it.

Wester River Expedition would have really set the two parks apart even further and would have been a unique thing to experience.

 

[Protozaius]

I think the Magic Kingdom is taking a step in the right direction with their Fantasyland expansion. That will set the two parks apart for sure. Though I think they should have timed it better and have it open during their 40th Anniversary celebration.