WATCHMEN Movie Discussion (SPOILERS allowed)!

[Scar]

I gave it a mixed/positive review and I think 300 is absolute garbage. Although I will say my opinion has fallen somewhat upon reflection.



I'm sorry, but he's right. It's the major failing of Watchmen as a novel. The book was set up in an alternate universe to power the engine of the story but it was released at the height of the Cold War and about the Cold War as much as it was about superhero comics (and more to the point how idiotic superhero comics are compared to the reality of the Cold War). The book cannot be divorced from from that milieu and efforts to do so are doomed to silliness. Not only did we make it through, but real "squid" events have proved either fractious and destabilizing (9/11) or overlooked completely once the news celebration passes (the Asian tsunami). In fact the mass slaughter (intentional or otherwise, and it's worth remembering in Watchmen the squid was viewed as an accidental dimensional breach) of Johnny Foreigner is virtually ignored around the world.

Watchmen works in its own space (the novel anyway; I don't think the film holds together by the end). But it doesn't work in our space 25 years later. Unfortunately, it was supposed to, because it was about us as much as anything. Poor readers often call Watchmen nihilistic. It's not; it's incredibly naive. Brilliant, but naive.

Relegating the book to "alternative universe fiction" is like pretending 1984 isn't a political novel and ignores the reality of Watchmen's contemporary publishing. It was never escapist fiction (one of the reasons the fans of rapists and psychopaths stand out). The EW assessment is fair.

Making the squid comparable to 9/11 and the tsunami is specious. The squid is a galvanizing component to unite humanity against a common threat. With 9/11 there was a demographic within humanity who viewed their actions justified, laudable, and sanctioned by a deity; they believed they were benefiting humanity and their faith, and the threat was within the human race rather than externalized. Ergo, no " world peace" since humanity remains divided. With the tsunami, the "good" in humans comes out to help other people, but again falls short of uniting them against a common threat, that is unless people see fit to rise up in militarized opposition to seismic activity. Noteworthy with the tsunami and with any disaster is that any prolific aid is sent immediately following the disaster, and even though regions may suffer from hardship years later, people care less and less over time; just a thought, cynical but true.

It's not relegating to escapism if something is meant to be alternative but with consequences from which poignancy and lessons could be gleaned. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. When individuals are presented with a common threat, they join to overcome. It's in biological nature and is what gives rise to gregarious behavior in all species, not only humans. It's why numerous species of ungulates band together for mutual migration on the African savannah, with more eyes giving a better chance of spotting and combating animals that predate upon them. It is meant to have contemporary significance, but being the 40s-80s went very differently in the GN, it is sensible to offer the appraisal that future events based on a past different from our own would differ also.

 

[barbelith]

Making the squid comparable to 9/11 and the tsunami is specious. The squid is a galvanizing component to unite humanity against a common threat.

But only because that's how Moore viewed tragedy on that scale, which is the main reason the book is ultimately naive. In fact one of the reasons the film doesn't work in the end is because changing the climax underscores how unrealistic a unified humanity actually is. Your argument about 9/11 doesn't change that, because there will always be factions who think whatever happens is justified or sanctioned by a deity (the new ending of the film is especially susceptible of this problem). Moore was naive in proposing a scenario where this wouldn't happen, although in his defense he did pick the most credible of all possible scenarios on which to hang his hypothesis.

Noteworthy with the tsunami and with any disaster is that any prolific aid is sent immediately following the disaster, and even though regions may suffer from hardship years later, people care less and less over time; just a thought, cynical but true.

Right. Another nail in Ozymandias' plot. We stop caring once the media orgy ends. Your "cynical but true" is one of the things pointing to the naivete of the book.

When individuals are presented with a common threat, they join to overcome.

History proves otherwise. That's certainly one response, but it's not the only response. Look at the Nazi occupations. Some joined together to resist the threat. Others became sympathizers. Others fled. Still others just kept their heads down and carried on as normal. It's a nice Hallmark card thought but it just isn't borne out by the facts. A real life squid event would be fractious at worst and result in temporary unity at best as evidenced by all other tragedies. The fundamentalists would have a field day, for one. Rapture!

 

[BadMoon]

I think I will just enjoy the movie.

 

[scubasteve]

I think I will just enjoy the movie.

Me too.

 

[BadMoon]

Me too.

 

[darthviper107]

But only because that's how Moore viewed tragedy on that scale, which is the main reason the book is ultimately naive. In fact one of the reasons the film doesn't work in the end is because changing the climax underscores how unrealistic a unified humanity actually is. Your argument about 9/11 doesn't change that, because there will always be factions who think whatever happens is justified or sanctioned by a deity (the new ending of the film is especially susceptible of this problem). Moore was naive in proposing a scenario where this wouldn't happen, although in his defense he did pick the most credible of all possible scenarios on which to hang his hypothesis.

I think a squid would be far more effective than anything in our past that we've experienced, for one it instantly kills 3 million people, nations would united for fear of being attacked by the aliens themselves.

And While it would be effective for a time, it would wear off--at some point countries would decide that building up military would be a better idea. But that's the point of the story--They make it very clear in the graphic novel that war is a part of human nature and that while it might delay war, war will still come none the less.

 

[barbelith]

I think a squid would be far more effective than anything in our past that we've experienced, for one it instantly kills 3 million people, nations would united for fear of being attacked by the aliens themselves.

I agree - which is why I think the squid is actually the only ending that can begin to make sense. The movie ending doesn't work for me at all.

 

[Kuzeh]

Alright!!
I'm a Watchmen newbie here!!
And I just finished reading the comic this past Sunday for the first time,
and all I have to say is: "WOW!!!"
This thing is amazing and I look forward to the movie much more now!!!
It's flawed but very powerful, I've always thought that humanity needed a catastrophe of apocalyptic proportions to really unite... and seeing it happen in the book was amazing and scary...
Of course the 9/11 comparisons are inevitable, but I personally think they are two completely different things, situations, contexts. etc...
But I don't want to go deep in to this just yet...
I'm still processing the book! And I will see the movie this weekend!!
So...
As everyone else, I'm just ready to enjoy it!! !!

 

[Memnoch]

Soo.. something I just thought about. Bubastis was a precursor to the squid. Without the squid.. what is the point of Bubastis?

 

[barbelith]

Bubastis was a precursor to the squid. Without the squid.. what is the point of Bubastis?

He's just cool. It's important to make a cool movie. It should be as bad ass as possible, because isn't that the point? I know, we can have Dan and Laurie get in a fight at the prison, even though at this point in their lives they shouldn't be able to fight themselves out of a wet paper bag. Wouldn't that be cool? Maybe we should take out some of the stuff that makes us wonder if Rorshach isn't actually cool at all. And hey, Dr Manhattan is cool. Let's make his role bigger. Maybe the whole movie could depend on him. That would be cool. Then we should probably make a sequel. Maybe Rob Liefeld could draw it. That would be cool and bad ass all at the same time.

 

[YoNoSe]

I was just thinking about Bubastis as well. I never understood the logic behind replacing the squid. Giant blue naked man and a Liger are okay, but a fabricated "alien" monster will test the audience too much?

 

[Memnoch]

He's just cool. It's important to make a cool movie. It should be as bad ass as possible, because isn't that the point? I know, we can have Dan and Laurie get in a fight at the prison, even though at this point in their lives they shouldn't be able to fight themselves out of a wet paper bag. Wouldn't that be cool? Maybe we should take out some of the stuff that makes us wonder if Rorshach isn't actually cool at all. And hey, Dr Manhattan is cool. Let's make his role bigger. Maybe the whole movie could depend on him. That would be cool. Then we should probably make a sequel. Maybe Rob Liefeld could draw it. That would be cool and bad ass all at the same time.

Ok.. now without the sarcasm. I was asking a serious question. Is there an explaination within the film for the big cat? Is it played off as part of Ozzy's personality/persona? Otherwise I don't see the point for Bubastis to still be there without the squid.

 

[Memnoch]

I was just thinking about Bubastis as well. I never understood the logic behind replacing the squid. Giant blue naked man and a Liger are okay, but a fabricated "alien" monster will test the audience too much?

I dont think it was testing the audience really, I think that it was an excuse so they didn't have to say it would increase the run time. To fully flesh out the squid idea you'd need to establish the missing people, show them on the island, show their deaths and then use the squid. That's probably a good 20 to 30 minutes onto the runtime that does sort of take us away from the main characters.

 

[teabelly83]

i just read a review of the movie on imdb and someone has comapred the level of violence in the movie to the SAW movies???? is it me or does that seem an odd comparison??

 

[YoNoSe]

I dont think it was testing the audience really, I think that it was an excuse so they didn't have to say it would increase the run time. To fully flesh out the squid idea you'd need to establish the missing people, show them on the island, show their deaths and then use the squid. That's probably a good 20 to 30 minutes onto the runtime that does sort of take us away from the main characters.

Yeah, I'd heard that too but would it really have eaten up that much more time? The set-up of the squid is miniscule in the book if I'm remembering correctly (been a while).

 

[YoNoSe]

i just read a review of the movie on imdb and someone has comapred the level of violence in the movie to the SAW movies???? is it me or does that seem an odd comparison??

I don't know but I have read that a couple of scenes are distractingly excessive.

 

[Morbach]

Probably seeing this either Saturday night or Sunday but either way I can't wait

 

[Memnoch]

Yeah, I'd heard that too but would it really have eaten up that much more time? The set-up of the squid is miniscule in the book if I'm remembering correctly (been a while).

Well as it stands now, something else would have had to be cut even if it was 10 minutes because this is as long as the movie could possibly be thanks to IMAX. That's why Mason's death was cut.

 

[teabelly83]

I don't know but I have read that a couple of scenes are distractingly excessive.

yeah iread that 2, not sure which scenes yet goin on the short reviews i read they didnt explain much. only a guy gets his elbow hyperextended to the point it broke and goes through the skin, People get dessinegrated, People get burn with a flame thrower, A guy has foam come out his mouth after ingesting a cyanide pill, Two dogs get killed with a cleaver then their owner gets his head destroyed with the same cleaver. A guy gets his arms cut of with a buzz saw, then the guy who cut off his arms get his head slammed into a toilet and electrocuted. A guy gets his face burnt with oil from a fryer..hmm?? ahah

 

[barbelith]

To fully flesh out the squid idea you'd need to establish the missing people, show them on the island, show their deaths and then use the squid. That's probably a good 20 to 30 minutes onto the runtime that does sort of take us away from the main characters.

It's five or 10 minutes tops, and we eat up most of that time watching pointless fight scenes that aren't even in the book in the first place (hello prison break). The artists and the island are barely in the book. They might take up three pages.