Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

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Yea that’s cool but there is no bias here. People just think it’s a bad film. They have it a shot and didn’t like it. There were tons of bad films this year but this is the one that has the bias behind it? Even the beloved mcu film franchise was met with bad reviews. It’s not bias it’s just most people didn’t enjoy it and that’s fine. Some did enjoy it but there is no bias going on here.

True. I don't feel biased. I never minded ZS, loved the Watchmen. And I even gave the movie a second chance yesterday and watched it again. But it really doesn't do anything for me unfortunately... I wish it would 'cause the visuals are really good. But I'll probably give it another try when the uncut version is out.
 
Much of the inspiration for the "space opera" genre that Star Wars in 1977 made massively popular as never before is in fact B movies. For Star Wars George Lucas originally wanted to make an updated version of Flash Gordon, which as we know was a comic strip based on sci-fi pulp comics. And then a pulp serial in the 30s with Buster Crab. From among the influences he said that he drew upon to make ANH, many are "pulp."

What was innovative about what Lucas did... one of several things anyway... was to ground all that in a much more realistic style of storytelling, so that it felt as though the sci-fi elements could actually exist in real life. Particularly in terms of special effects. But again, the source material (some of it, not all, but much of it) of comic strips, comic books, pulp fiction, and movie serials in the early history of cinema use obvious representations of things that exist purely in fantasy. In 1977 Star Wars made it feel like you yourself could leave the theater, hop into your X-wing and fly to another world. It made it feel remarkable as it should. But it also normalized it. Similar, I suppose, to the way Tolkien's LotR makes the reader feels as though all those fantasy elements could exist in physical reality, not just in one's imagination. Like he was documenting a place that actually existed somewhere in real life.

Anyway, I think Zack Snyder is aiming for some similar sort of synthesis of what is obviously fantastical and what feels like it could be real somewhere "a long time ago in a galaxy far away." And I'm curious to see how it proceeds. I'm down for the ride.

I agree with this, but then you also must admire Cameron for making his own universe with Avatar. Right?
 
Well, if by that you mean there's zero groupthink effect... eh, I have to disagree with that on general principles. The same goes for people that love it too, imho. It's naive to think otherwise. It's not conscious and intentional of course. I do get that.

But I will take at face value that you personally experience no conscious hate bias towards it. You're the expert on your own subjective experience, and no one else is.
There may be Bias but to say that ALL of it is is just silly. Zack Snyder isn't that important for people to just group up against the guy. You may regard him in a very high pedastole but the rest of us do not. At the end of the day he's just a director and if he makes a bad film ok but if he makes a good film i'm sure people will praise it. Lots of people in this thread of actually given mixed reviews on it. They even agreee there is no bias and understand why people may not like the movie. It's not for everyone.
 
True. I don't feel biased. I never minded ZS, loved the Watchmen. And I even gave the movie a second chance yesterday and watched it again. But it really doesn't do anything for me unfortunately... I wish it would 'cause the visuals are really good. But I'll probably give it another try when the uncut version is out.
i'm watching it now and I'm interested in it so far. but i'm like 20 min in
 
I agree with this, but then you also must admire Cameron for making his own universe with Avatar. Right?

Yeah, I'm super impressed by what Cameron did with that mythology. There's still nothing new under the sun, of course. But Cameron brought the elements together in what feels like a fresh, innovative way, same as Lucas originally did with ANH. Or for that matter like what Tolkien did with Middle Earth, pulling as he did from northern Indo-European mythology.

With Avatar we've got the Garden of Eden perfect connection to Nature being undone by the serpent, Satan. Man the toolmaker, the builder, who makes technolgies that end up being used for evil purposes, to control and dominate others, to maintain power-over relationships, etc. To ruthlessly exploit anyone and everyone. It's of course familiar in other movies as well. Dances With Wolves, for example. Or to expand it slightly, any films dealing with the fall from any sort of original state of grace, and the impulse to attempt to restore the fallen world. Tolkien's entire Arda mythology is about that.

This is a theme right at the heart of Rebel Moon as well! But thus far we've only gotten the tip of the iceberg for it. This PG-13 cut is just an opening chapter to the mythos.
 
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There may be Bias but to say that ALL of it is is just silly. Zack Snyder isn't that important for people to just group up against the guy. You may regard him in a very high pedastole but the rest of us do not. At the end of the day he's just a director and if he makes a bad film ok but if he makes a good film i'm sure people will praise it. Lots of people in this thread of actually given mixed reviews on it. They even agreee there is no bias and understand why people may not like the movie. It's not for everyone.

I can respect that point for sure. Again, per a normal distribution not everyone that dislikes Rebel Moon is automatically hopping on a hate train. (Not consciously anyway!)

But I have to say, seeing what my "YT recommends" feed is giving me for the reviews on this movie, it seems like the popular opinion is what gets the most clicks. Like that viewpoint begets more of the same because people tend to feel reassured and comforted when their viewpoint is being widely endorsed. Whether those "influencers" (and wanna-be influencers) are proceeding in a very intentional and calculating way is hard to say.

There's no way to prove this but if the narrative that was taking shape was Rebel Moon is amazing, how many of those folks reviewing it would modify their reviews accordingly? Especially when they are keenly aware of the dynamics at play for social media? Just posing the question to make a point. I legit don't have a way of measuring it scientifically.

It was fascinating to me to watch trailer reactions to Rebel Moon. Everyone agrees that Snyder makes great trailers, independent of how they feel about the film itself. So when everyone was digging the trailers I saw of lot of folks saying, "I've always been a Zack Snyder fan," lol. Or at least saying things like "I've always loved his visuals, and for that reason I can forgive his flaws as a storyteller." Forgive me but I have my doubts about that in many cases, lol. It seemed to me that they were tailoring what they were saying with an expectation that maybe after ZSJL being fairly well received, perhaps Zack had finally figured out how to make a crowd pleaser. And that he might keep the streak going with Rebel Moon. And if so then they could then hopefully milk that for clicks/views/increased ad revenue. But my sense was... or at least this definitely crossed my mind... that if they had openly bashed Snyder in the past, they were then positioning themselves proactively in case Rebel Moon turned out to actually be a really popular new franchise.

But anyway, groupthink happens mostly unconsciously to begin with. We don't do it consciously for the most part. Sometimes it is conscious. And it absolutely is consciously manipulated at the highest levels (think advertising, politics, etc.) But for the unwashed masses that are just consuming products in our economic system, our views are mostly being shaped unconsciously.

The following is an interesting discussion about "sacred beliefs" with which I wholeheartedly agree, if this will help reassure folks about my values system related to all this:



48:55 primitive mind versus higher mind

1:13:44 idea lab versus echo chamber

2:43:01 learning process
 
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I can respect that point for sure. Again, per a normal distribution not everyone that dislikes Rebel Moon is automatically hopping on a hate train. (Not consciously anyway!)

But I have to say, seeing what my "YT recommends" feed is giving me for the reviews on this movie, it seems like the popular opinion is what gets the most clicks. Like that viewpoint begets more of the same because people tend to feel reassured and comforted when their viewpoint is being widely endorsed. Whether those "influencers" (and wanna-be influencers) are proceeding in a very intentional and calculating way is hard to say.

There's no way to prove this but if the narrative that was taking shape was Rebel Moon is amazing, how many of those folks reviewing it would modify their reviews accordingly? Especially when they are keenly aware of the dynamics at play for social media? Just posing the question to make a point. I legit don't have a way of measuring it scientifically.

It was fascinating to me to watch trailer reactions to Rebel Moon. Everyone agrees that Snyder makes great trailers, independent of how they feel about the film itself. So when everyone was digging the trailers I saw of lot of folks saying, "I've always been a Zack Snyder fan," lol. Or at least saying things like "I've always loved his visuals, and for that reason I can forgive his flaws as a storyteller." Forgive me but I have my doubts about that in many cases, lol. It seemed to me that they were tailoring what they were saying with an expectation that maybe after ZSJL being fairly well received, perhaps Zack had finally figured out how to make a crowd pleaser. And that he might keep the streak going with Rebel Moon. And if so then they could then hopefully milk that for clicks/views/increased ad revenue. But my sense was... or at least this definitely crossed my mind... that if they had openly bashed Snyder in the past, they were then positioning themselves proactively in case Rebel Moon turned out to actually be a really popular new franchise.

But anyway, groupthink happens mostly unconsciously to begin with. We don't do it consciously for the most part. Sometimes it is conscious. And it absolutely is consciously manipulated at the highest levels (think advertising, politics, etc.) But for the unwashed masses that are just consuming products in our economic system, our views are mostly being shaped unconsciously.

The following is an interesting discussion about "sacred beliefs" with which I wholeheartedly agree, if this will help reassure folks about my values system related to all this:



48:55 primitive mind versus higher mind

1:13:44 idea lab versus echo chamber

2:43:01 learning process

Yea no I don't think that's it buddy. I don't think people are just group thinking I think the movie is just not resonating with people and Zack is justa bad director . The film is kinda a chore to get through.
The first part started off so strong with the droid and the farm house and saving the girl but it is just sooooo boring a just s slog to get through. So much slo mo to, so much back story being told. Like so much exposition
There are really good ideas here like with most of his films but it's just so boring and done so poorly.

As the batman said it is kinda like a bugs life with the whole grain plotline.

This has nothing to do with tribal anything or people following just to get clicks the film just isn't that good. It did so well in the begining but it fell severly flat after that guy tamed that bird thing.

It's ok though. If you like it thats cool cause bad films have fans but there is clearly no bias here at all it's just not well made.
 
Okay some of you really need to expand your film experiences if you think that A Bug's Life originated that story. Just sayin, lol.
Lol I mean I know there are others that follow this but he was right about a bugs life and as soon as he said We will be back for the grain in a couple of weeks it really did remind me of the Grasshopper from A bug's Life. But that didn't turn me off from the film. i just think it kinda drags when they start looking for people. It was very engaging at the start though and the lore was very interesting but yea.
 
Basically adds fuel to my speculation that the PG-13 version is motivated to... well, basically eventually sell toys! Or hopes to.

Well, if by that you mean there's zero groupthink effect... eh, I have to disagree with that on general principles. The same goes for people that love it too, imho. It's naive to think otherwise. It's not conscious and intentional of course. I do get that.

But I will take at face value that you personally experience no conscious hate bias towards it. You're the expert on your own subjective experience, and no one else is.


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Watched this again yesterday but with the wife and the 3 kids. I liked it more on the second watch. Feels a bit rushed but still a good ride. I'm hoping the extended cut fleshes it out. For all the things it copies/homages, there are still some original ideas in there or maybe I just have seen them elsewhere.

I'm even more convinced the hate for it and "it's the worst movie" is pure bias.

I'll say it again, that there's nothing new under the sun. But what strikes me as relatively fresh... Just one for now:

Celts versus Romans?

I'm getting a vibe that Veldt is strongly inspired by the ancient Celts. The Imperium reminds me to some degree of ancient Rome, and the Celts were similarly at the outskirts of that vast and powerful Empire. By the time the Romans tried to colonize the British Isles, Rome had overextended itself by then in its insatiable lust for conquest. By then Rome had spread itself too thin. And the Celts were just a bit too far from the hub for Rome to successfully colonize them. So they held off the invaders. At that point in history anyway. They denied Rome its prize.

I think Zack Snyder, Kurt Johnstad, and Shay Hatten probably pulled from that real world historical inspiration quite a bit. And I don't recall seeing that done in the sci-fi genre before. At least not off the top of my head... I trust others will point it out if I'm overlooking a sci-fi film that has done this quite as squarely before (if ever). But come to think of it, Braveheart tells a fairly similar story in a different genre, I guess. But that takes place later in history and it's significantly different from ancient Rome's encounter with the Celtic "barbarians." Plus Rebel Moon is taking a far more mythic approach in a fantastical setting, whereas Braveheart is a historical adventure film, featuring real historical figures.

Anyway, if this conjecture is correct this of course includes the story of Budica, an ancient Celtic queen who led a resistance that arguably succeeded over the long term to deny the Romans full conquest of the British Isles. That is, Kora is then to some extent inspired by Budica, at least in terms of her historical role. Last night my YT recommends feed gave me a decent documentary, The Celts, that I feel asleep to (got most of it) that for me as a history buff is pretty enjoyable just on it's own. An easy 45 minute watch. I would recommend it if you have an interest in the subject. In fact watch it and then watch Rebel Moon.

And I do see parallels between the Celtic society and Veldt. For the most part, although not completely. There are some differences. For example, the Celts loved war and felt restless if they weren't fighting. That aspect is actually captured by the Imperium. It's like that sensibility was taken up by the ancient Romans, actually. Julius Caesar (our main source from antiquity about the Celts) wrote about how impressed he was with the Celt's warrior spirit. But he noted they lacked discipline and strategic ability. The Imperium feels like an unholy alliance of the Celtic warrior ethos with Roman military discipline and social order.

And I think Rome vs. Celts serves as a metaphor for some important themes about life today as well. The people of Veldt have a deep, sincere reverence for Nature. The Celts had a druidic religion that was based on it which has been lost to time. It's my own personal association perhaps, but think that's in some ways a metaphor for figuring out how to live life in a way that builds a stronger, healthier, eathier, more organic sort of connection between the conscious mind and the unconscious. (Important for artists like Zack.) I think we'll see more of that get developed through Jimmy's arc. Jimmy is essentially going to be a proto "druid" it looks like. Jimmy also has obvious Arthurian grail myth vibes. I think the concept of Issa, as a sort of primordial energy, is very much like how the ancient world conceived of the concept of "soul" or "psyche."

I remember when Star Wars released how excited and hopeful I was that it would run hard with the Jedi philosophy and really open that up and develop it. Like yes, please! Create a distinct New Age philosophy for us. That sounded fun based on the bare bones that it gave us. But instead ESB actually went in a much safer direction of a traditional adventure yarn.

I'm holding out hope that Rebel Moon will do some really innovative stuff with the relationship between what Veldt represents and the Imperium's use of technology. The neural network that the Imperium's religion uses to access astral planes looks frickin' wild. I want to see all that get developed. Fingers crossed that that might end up doing something fairly innovative.
 
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Yea no I don't think that's it buddy. I don't think people are just group thinking I think the movie is just not resonating with people and Zack is justa bad director . The film is kinda a chore to get through.
The first part started off so strong with the droid and the farm house and saving the girl but it is just sooooo boring a just s slog to get through. So much slo mo to, so much back story being told. Like so much exposition
There are really good ideas here like with most of his films but it's just so boring and done so poorly.

As the batman said it is kinda like a bugs life with the whole grain plotline.

This has nothing to do with tribal anything or people following just to get clicks the film just isn't that good. It did so well in the begining but it fell severly flat after that guy tamed that bird thing.

It's ok though. If you like it thats cool cause bad films have fans but there is clearly no bias here at all it's just not well made.

Okay, it's just kind of circular from both of us at this point. When I respond I'm speaking to a broader possible audience. But clearly your mind is firmly made up! Peace, haha!
 
See why do you say stuff like that? The hate is pure bias. People can’t like a movie now? People hated antman 3 this yr. That’s fine but people thinking this movie sucks is bias? Come on . Maybe it’s just a bad film?
Because that is what I believe. Of course, people can not like movies. I'm not talking about the not liking of movies, I'm talking about the hate of movies.
I haven't seen anywhere near the same amount of vitriol for other original IP movies, not even close. As usual, happy to be proved wrong.
 
Yea that’s cool but there is no bias here. People just think it’s a bad film. They have it a shot and didn’t like it. There were tons of bad films this year but this is the one that has the bias behind it? Even the beloved mcu film franchise was met with bad reviews. It’s not bias it’s just most people didn’t enjoy it and that’s fine. Some did enjoy it but there is no bias going on here.
You're here in a thread for a film you haven't seen by a filmmaker you hate. No bias?
 
True. I don't feel biased. I never minded ZS, loved the Watchmen. And I even gave the movie a second chance yesterday and watched it again. But it really doesn't do anything for me unfortunately... I wish it would 'cause the visuals are really good. But I'll probably give it another try when the uncut version is out.
I'm not saying whoever doesn't like it is biased. I'm saying some of the comments I've read regarding how it's the worst film ever made etc. The hate. There's more to it than just the movie not being one's cup of tea.
 
I'm not saying whoever doesn't like it is biased. I'm saying some of the comments I've read regarding how it's the worst film ever made etc. The hate. There's more to it than just the movie not being one's cup of tea.
Probably also true. Some people just like to exaggerate, I guess. (Or they've been real lucky and have never truly seen a ****** movie before ^^) While RM didn't win me over personally it is far from being the worst movie I've ever seen. There are sooo many horrible movies out there and Rebel Moon definitely doesn't belong in that category.
 
Because that is what I believe. Of course, people can not like movies. I'm not talking about the not liking of movies, I'm talking about the hate of movies.
I haven't seen anywhere near the same amount of vitriol for other original IP movies, not even close. As usual, happy to be proved wrong.

Yeah, there's a lot of denial about this in my opinion as well. Each person that bashes it has their own conscience to reckon with regarding a possible Snyder hate bias and jumping on a groupthink bandwagon sort of phenomenon. Well, if they even care, lol. I'm sure most won't. But this is a "if the shoe fits" sort of thing. It's not for me to say what goes on in other people's minds. But I can detect a broad bias phenomenon out there for sure.

And people that love it have their own biases as well. I know I do! So how much am I unconsciously projecting? How much are haters unconsciously projecting? That's an open question to me. It's a percentage on both sides perhaps. But I think I can be relatively humble about it, though.

I'm pretty certain that by almost any other director today Rebel Moon would not be getting savaged in this way. It's almost impossible to say that there is an objective way to measure this sort of thing... no way I can think of that could give us strong consensus of reliable measure. But I will say that based on films I like that are widely regarded as well made and satisfying (see a short list of some of my favorite films here) Rebel Moon is actually a pretty damn good movie overall. So for the reasons that I appreciate those films, I appreciate Rebel Moon as well. Granted the films on that list are all mostly 10/10. Rebel Moon's PG-13 cut for me is... I dunno.. 7/10... maybe 7.5. Because of what it promises--if it delivers--I can even conceivably round it up to 8. But then again my bias is to view a film positively for whatever it has to offer.
 
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