Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[The Buffinator]

A valid point on the video vs the eyeforfilm review. That being said I have no interest in watching "So and so movie/show/game sucks" on a studio-mandated version of a movie that has a director's cut that exists and is on the horizon. I am somewhat curious why anyone looking at this reasonably would.

Rebel Moon isn't great, it only hits good every now and again, hence my average review on it. Both of the movies are lacking. These are neutered versions with roughly 33% missing and not what I'm going to ultimately judge them on.

Well, unlike the original BvS (studio mandated cuts) or JL (studio mandated major surgery during which the patient died), the PG-13 cut is something he readily agreed to make and has actively promoted. It's not like he's washed his hands of it, thrown Netflix under the bus and told everyone to wait for his R-rated cuts. And if you watch the video, you'll see that the problems with the movie that this guy lists aren't likely to be fixed by padding the run time with more gore and slo-mo action. His director's cut still has the same people in the writing room, hence the issue. But hey, you do you.

 

[T8OO]

The thing is tho if he can’t do it right the first time why should he be given another shot over and over again? Like if you can’t make a good film the first time and you constantly need a “directors cut” to make the movie good. Then maybe you aren’t a good director? Seriously and each movie of his has ti be 4 hrs or more to tell a more cohesive story? Come on.

Dude should just write a book

The first version IS the director's cut. Typically the director's cut is the first cut made after the assembly cut just once filming has finished and they have 10 weeks to do this. The only reason it's not done this time is they agreed on a PG-13 version first but this guaranteed him his preferred cut afterwards.

He doesn't need to write a book, he can make 4-hour movies

 

[T8OO]

Well, unlike the original BvS (studio mandated cuts) or JL (studio mandated major surgery during which the patient died), the PG-13 cut is something he readily agreed to make and has actively promoted. It's not like he's washed his hands of it, thrown Netflix under the bus and told everyone to wait for his R-rated cuts. And if you watch the video, you'll see that the problems with the movie that this guy lists aren't likely to be fixed by padding the run time with more gore and slo-mo action. His director's cut still has the same people in the writing room, hence the issue. But hey, you do you.

He actively promoted WW84 during ZSJL. Considering the deal he made with Netflix, it would be rather irresponsible of him to wash his hands of them. He may also be proud of what he did considering what he was trying to accomplish with the R-rated version.
Who would expect gore and slow-mo to fix problems with the script?
BvS had the same writer for both versions, if the story is cut down the narrative will be affected.

 

[The Buffinator]

The thing about the standard approach to analysis for the PG13 cuts is if it misses the following context, I’m not sure if it’s really taking enough into account to be fair to it. I know I’m a broken record on this, but:

With the director’s cuts giving the genre a sci-fi fantasy pulp/Heavy Metal/B movie vibe Snyder is going to basically vulgarize something that’s sacred to most people. I mean, it’s not Star Wars per se, but he’s commenting on it for sure. The deconstruction of applying that pulp vibe to the “space opera” genre that 1977 Star Wars spawned isn’t in the PG13 cuts. The PG13 cuts are the version that I think Zack imagines is what any studio would mandate “by focus group.” And that takes the story of the director’s cut and declaws, defangs, and neuters it. So as we have seen, that’s probably going to rub most viewers the wrong way. And the director’s cut version that is akin to the animal in the wild, in its natural state is going to do some very weird and intense things to a genre that most viewers innocently enjoy as wholesome entertainment.

I thought Superman and Batman were about as off limits as you can get for genre deconstruction, such that people would be upset by it. But Star Wars is even more of a sacred cow. People are going to be even more freaked out by that.

People hated on BvS because they wanted to see Superman and Batman depicted in their classical genre form for the first ever live action blockbuster teamup of those two iconic figures. And here with Rebel Moon most folks wanted Snyder to take the classical form of Star Wars and just sort of dirty it up a bit, make it grittier and more adult in terms of themes, give it adult violence, and of course the cherry on top of the awesome visuals for which Snyder has become renowned.

That being said, I do believe that if he gets the chance to make Part 3 the pendulum will swing back towards reconstructing the genre, which is what he did with ZSJL in his DC trilogy. So we might yet get something much closer to what people actually wanted.

Zack definitely has an itch to deconstruct genres that evidently he needs to constantly scratch.

Deconstruction is fine if one doesn't forget to make both the story and its characters appealing to the viewer. So far RM has failed in that area, and I don't believe his alternate longer cut will magically fix that. And given how little screen time is actually spent IN SPACE I don't think anyone (besides you of course) would have made the Space Opera deconstruction connection if Snyder wasn't talking it up so such.

WRT BvS, I never had an issue with his approach to the characters but rather the premise and execution. Putting Gotham and Metropolis across a bay from one another was just jarring and made Clark the world's worst "investigative reporter" ever for not knowing or acknowledging Batman's heroic past. And anyway you spin it, the "Save Martha" moment was just painfully bad. How much of that lies at Snyder's feet vs. Goyer and Terrio (the writers) I don't know, but that's where the movie failed for me. Well, there was Eisenberg's performance too lol...

 

[MeatHookGekko]

The first version IS the director's cut. Typically the director's cut is the first cut made after the assembly cut just once filming has finished and they have 10 weeks to do this. The only reason it's not done this time is they agreed on a PG-13 version first but this guaranteed him his preferred cut afterwards.

He doesn't need to write a book, he can make 4-hour movies

 

[abake]

The thing about the standard approach to analysis for the PG13 cuts is if it misses the following context, I’m not sure if it’s really taking enough into account to be fair to it. I know I’m a broken record on this, but:

With the director’s cuts giving the genre a sci-fi fantasy pulp/Heavy Metal/B movie vibe Snyder is going to basically vulgarize something that’s sacred to most people. I mean, it’s not Star Wars per se, but he’s commenting on it for sure. The deconstruction of applying that pulp vibe to the “space opera” genre that 1977 Star Wars spawned isn’t in the PG13 cuts. The PG13 cuts are the version that I think Zack imagines is what any studio would mandate “by focus group.” And that takes the story of the director’s cut and declaws, defangs, and neuters it. So as we have seen, that’s probably going to rub most viewers the wrong way. And the director’s cut version that is akin to the animal in the wild, in its natural state is going to do some very weird and intense things to a genre that most viewers innocently enjoy as wholesome entertainment.

I thought Superman and Batman were about as off limits as you can get for genre deconstruction, such that people would be upset by it. But Star Wars is even more of a sacred cow. People are going to be even more freaked out by that.

People hated on BvS because they wanted to see Superman and Batman depicted in their classical genre form for the first ever live action blockbuster teamup of those two iconic figures. And here with Rebel Moon most folks wanted Snyder to take the classical form of Star Wars and just sort of dirty it up a bit, make it grittier and more adult in terms of themes, give it adult violence, and of course the cherry on top of the awesome visuals for which Snyder has become renowned.

That being said, I do believe that if he gets the chance to make Part 3 the pendulum will swing back towards reconstructing the genre, which is what he did with ZSJL in his DC trilogy. So we might yet get something much closer to what people actually wanted.

Zack definitely has an itch to deconstruct genres that evidently he needs to constantly scratch.

Unlike what was achieved in MoS, BvS and -to a certain degree- ZSJL, I fail to see any deconstruction of the genre in Rebel Moon.
The DC movies are "deconstructions" in the sense that they ask these questions:

a) what would happen if such super-powered, god-like beings existed in our world? What would be a realistic reaction to them?
b) what would these characters realistically act like? What doubts and traumas would they have?

And then they give an answer. Whether you like the questions and the answers or not is a different matter.

In Rebel Moon there are no such parameters. It's exactly the same beats and clichés that we have become used to. Unfortunately not very well written. Rebel Moon (both parts) is like a collection of cover songs. It's Snyder doing his favourite scenes from a bunch of different movies in his style and throwing them together in two semi-coherent movies. I mean, there are scenes that are lifted directly from other movies.

I hope Snyder goes back to working with good, strong writers and producers, because he certainly needs them.

 

[ironwez20]

The first version IS the director's cut. Typically the director's cut is the first cut made after the assembly cut just once filming has finished and they have 10 weeks to do this. The only reason it's not done this time is they agreed on a PG-13 version first but this guaranteed him his preferred cut afterwards.

He doesn't need to write a book, he can make 4-hour movies

Again. Nobody is going to sit down for a 4 hr movie of his. Especially if it’s in slo motion. If Snyder got his way and finished the JL movie it would not have a four hr runtime in theaters.

 

[ironwez20]

Deconstruction is fine if one doesn't forget to make both the story and its characters appealing to the viewer. So far RM has failed in that area, and I don't believe his alternate longer cut will magically fix that. And given how little screen time is actually spent IN SPACE I don't think anyone (besides you of course) would have made the Space Opera deconstruction connection if Snyder wasn't talking it up so such.

WRT BvS, I never had an issue with his approach to the characters but rather the premise and execution. Putting Gotham and Metropolis across a bay from one another was just jarring and made Clark the world's worst "investigative reporter" ever for not knowing or acknowledging Batman's heroic past. And anyway you spin it, the "Save Martha" moment was just painfully bad. How much of that lies at Snyder's feet vs. Goyer and Terrio (the writers) I don't know, but that's where the movie failed for me. Well, there was Eisenberg's performance too lol...

I thought the whole gotham being across the bay from Superman’s city was cool at first until I realized how dumb it was that he’s considered a “myth” when he’s literally across the bridge

 

[Wor-Gar]

I fail to see any deconstruction of the genre in Rebel Moon.

This is what I've been saying.

The term is thrown around more in this thread than hands planting seed shots.

 

[Otomofan]

With the director’s cuts giving the genre a sci-fi fantasy pulp/Heavy Metal/B movie vibe Snyder is going to basically vulgarize something that’s sacred to most people. I mean, it’s not Star Wars per se, but he’s commenting on it for sure. The deconstruction of applying that pulp vibe to the “space opera” genre that 1977 Star Wars spawned isn’t in the PG13 cuts.

I'm telling you this as a friend: you sound desperate. You sound like a kid in high school that's been dumped, and dumped badly, and he's looking for any kind of sign or indication that his girlfriend is gonna come back some day.

"Did you see when she looked at me in the hall after lunch? She looked at me, not at the floor, like usual. I think that means she's ready to start things up again!"

No. She's not. It's all in your head.

If Snyder really set out to "deconstruct Star Wars in a pulp fiction/B-movie/Heavy Metal style" then he failed. Miserably. All he did and all he has ever been capable of doing, was making a movie based on dozens of other movies that came before, and trying to throw in "cool" or "edgy" stuff. He's not an auteur. He's not deep. And neither is Star Wars.

There's not enough material in Star Wars to make a "deconstruction" of or to make a "sleazy version" of. You can make it a parody, like "Spaceballs." You can make your own Heavy Metal-style space opera like "Fifth Element."

How do you apply a "pulp vibe" to something that already has a "pulp vibe?" You want a sleazy, "adult" Star Wars? Just add gratuitous blood and titties. Apparently that's the sum of Snyder's "genius" right there...add some blood and titties. There are probably projects where adding that to Star Wars would work for a small audience. A video game like GTA set in SW, maybe? But other than that, all you'd end up with is pure garbage like Rebel Moon.

The only people vulgarizing Star Wars are Disney themselves. They've been doing it for ten years now and I think most people have had just about enough of it. The Last Jedi was vulgar. Snyder's tentacle porn is just harmless and silly.

 

[T8OO]

Again. Nobody is going to sit down for a 4 hr movie of his. Especially if it’s in slo motion. If Snyder got his way and finished the JL movie it would not have a four hr runtime in theaters.

No comment on what I said about directors' cuts?

Nobody would watch a 4 hour movie or your version of "nobody"?

 

[T8OO]

View attachment 699973

I don't understand how this joke relates to what I said.

 

[T8OO]

This is what I've been saying.

The term is thrown around more in this thread than hands planting seed shots.

Did you not see it in the extended R rated versions?

 

[Remembermyname]

I went in cold knowing nothing about the film.or story, entertaining ride. Now about to view Part Two.

Is that you Jimmy?

 

[Sachiel]

I fail to see any deconstruction of the genre in Rebel Moon.

This is what I've been saying.

The term is thrown around more in this thread than hands planting seed shots.

The PG-13 cut is a deconstruction of the R-rated cut.

 

[ironwez20]

No comment on what I said about directors' cuts?

Nobody would watch a 4 hour movie or your version of "nobody"?

I mean he makes a directors cut but still . And I’m talking about if it were released in theaters. If the Snyder cut were released in theaters nobody would watch that unless your a diehard

 

[Alatar]

Deconstruction is fine if one doesn't forget to make both the story and its characters appealing to the viewer. So far RM has failed in that area, and I don't believe his alternate longer cut will magically fix that. And given how little screen time is actually spent IN SPACE I don't think anyone (besides you of course) would have made the Space Opera deconstruction connection if Snyder wasn't talking it up so such.

WRT BvS, I never had an issue with his approach to the characters but rather the premise and execution. Putting Gotham and Metropolis across a bay from one another was just jarring and made Clark the world's worst "investigative reporter" ever for not knowing or acknowledging Batman's heroic past. And anyway you spin it, the "Save Martha" moment was just painfully bad. How much of that lies at Snyder's feet vs. Goyer and Terrio (the writers) I don't know, but that's where the movie failed for me. Well, there was Eisenberg's performance too lol...

This is Snyder’s fault for not properly explaining it when the film released. He did a little of it on opening weekend for BvS but it was a kind of glib explanation that didn’t impact anyone’s perceptions, I don’t think.

Snyder has since more fully explained that he took a lot of core ideas from the comics’ Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns applied that to the concept of Batman meets Superman for BvS. Those two runs/graphic novels from 1986 are the seminal deconstruction of comics. They both examine what it would look like if superheroes existed in our real world—and it’s not at all soothing, comforting, or idealized. That’s pretty much why Snyder gets tagged with being “dark and gritty”—or to be less kind “grimdark” or “edgelord” or whatever. Like if these superheroes actually existed it would be a mess. But Snyder has explained that he does this to test whether the superheroes can still hold up as heroic under that stress. He likens it to Star Trek’s “Kobayashi Maru.”

But anyway, Watchmen takes place in a parallel alternate universe! It’s based on the “many worlds” or multiverse concept. Doctor Manhattan agrees to be a super weapon for the US and that obviously results in major aftereffects, perhaps the biggest one being that Nixon gets elected for four terms. But otherwise there’s lots of other wrinkles. Comics are dominated by pirate stories, not superheroes. Electric cars are in use. The fast food market is dominated by Indian Food. The Hindenburg disaster never happened so dirigibles are everywhere in the skies. Etc.

And that basic idea is what is happening essentially in BvS. It’s not the canon world of comics! In this alternate universe “Lex Luthor” is Alexander Luthor Junior, a millennial apparently with Asperger’s and Tourette’s. Jimmy Olsen evidently becomes a CIA operative. It is Dick Grayson that gets brutally murdered by Joker, not Jason Todd. And so on.

I’ll be the first to agree that this makes a huge ask of the audience. The viewer is simply thrown into the this world and one has to try to make sense of it, like Alice in Wonderland. I think Batman’s line “The world only makes sense when you force it to” has to connect with that in some way.

 

[T8OO]

I mean he makes a directors cut but still . And I’m talking about if it were released in theaters. If the Snyder cut were released in theaters nobody would watch that unless your a diehard

No one is saying he would have.

 

[Alatar]

Deconstruction is fine if one doesn't forget to make both the story and its characters appealing to the viewer. So far RM has failed in that area, and I don't believe his alternate longer cut will magically fix that. And given how little screen time is actually spent IN SPACE I don't think anyone (besides you of course) would have made the Space Opera deconstruction connection if Snyder wasn't talking it up so such.

WRT BvS, I never had an issue with his approach to the characters but rather the premise and execution. Putting Gotham and Metropolis across a bay from one another was just jarring and made Clark the world's worst "investigative reporter" ever for not knowing or acknowledging Batman's heroic past. And anyway you spin it, the "Save Martha" moment was just painfully bad. How much of that lies at Snyder's feet vs. Goyer and Terrio (the writers) I don't know, but that's where the movie failed for me. Well, there was Eisenberg's performance too lol...

It kind of is, in a way! Indirectly…

Netflix insisted that he make the two hour PG13 cuts, he says. I liken this to putting a wild creature in a zoo. He had to take his crazy idea of applying a Heavy Metal/pulp/B movie vibe to “Star Wars” (the “wild animal” in my analogy) and try to turn it into something acceptable to mainstream tastes, and that is emotionally and psychologically comforting and soothing in that way.

Lol, but um… well, we saw what happens. I’m always sad when I see a wild creature in a zoo. I can still appreciate and admire it. But emotionally oof!

But on the other hand, I’ll be the first to admit that the director’s cuts… which presumably are the creature in the wild… and by this I mean the version of the story that sounds like it could take place in Rick and Morty (and indeed Snyder as an artist is basically a lot like Rick, lol)… that crazy-ass version is still probably not what the average viewer wants to see!

So I really don’t know how this is going to go. In past movies Snyder has had Larry Fong, Chris Terrio, Han Zimmer, Michael Wilkinson, and Patrick Tatopoulos to help him assemble some very impressive cinematic experiences. And with Rebel Moon most viewers were expecting Star Wars except with a sort of 300, Watchmen, Man of Steel, and Batman v Superman flair and quality level.

But by doing so much himself for this film including writing and DPing, using an anamorphic lens to save money (blurry background = no CGI required), it’s not wowing people visually in the way that those four films I mentioned did.

I think all Snyder can really do here is create a more intimate experience of the story with his director’s cut. But his experience is that of a mad scientist, basically!

 

[Alatar]

I'm telling you this as a friend: you sound desperate. You sound like a kid in high school that's been dumped, and dumped badly, and he's looking for any kind of sign or indication that his girlfriend is gonna come back some day.

"Did you see when she looked at me in the hall after lunch? She looked at me, not at the floor, like usual. I think that means she's ready to start things up again!"

No. She's not. It's all in your head.

If Snyder really set out to "deconstruct Star Wars in a pulp fiction/B-movie/Heavy Metal style" then he failed. Miserably. All he did and all he has ever been capable of doing, was making a movie based on dozens of other movies that came before, and trying to throw in "cool" or "edgy" stuff. He's not an auteur. He's not deep. And neither is Star Wars.

There's not enough material in Star Wars to make a "deconstruction" of or to make a "sleazy version" of. You can make it a parody, like "Spaceballs." You can make your own Heavy Metal-style space opera like "Fifth Element."

How do you apply a "pulp vibe" to something that already has a "pulp vibe?" You want a sleazy, "adult" Star Wars? Just add gratuitous blood and titties. Apparently that's the sum of Snyder's "genius" right there...add some blood and titties. There are probably projects where adding that to Star Wars would work for a small audience. A video game like GTA set in SW, maybe? But other than that, all you'd end up with is pure garbage like Rebel Moon.

The only people vulgarizing Star Wars are Disney themselves. They've been doing it for ten years now and I think most people have had just about enough of it. The Last Jedi was vulgar. Snyder's tentacle porn is just harmless and silly.

Well, what you’re saying is from the perspective that your experience of Rebel Moon is that’s it’s objectively terrible, truly awful in its execution. And it’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying because I really do. I get why people see it that way.

But obviously I have a different experience of it than most people, apparently. I think it’s fascinating to look at, and interesting to think about what he’s attempting. Whether he fails or succeeds is a subjective matter at the end of the day.

He’s shared a lot about what he’s doing with Rebel Moon in interviews since Part 2 released:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/D4iJMkPfrM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/24qbJx005U

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/FLsA7GXKrj

That forms the basis of my observations.

And I honestly have no idea how well Snyder will pull it off with the director’s cut. In fact I have consistently stated that I think he’s doing something there (applying the Heavy Metal approach) that most viewers never asked for and don’t want.

To be fair, to really entertain what I’ve outlined is a huge ask, and not something that most viewers will feel inclined to do. In that sense from a business sense it’s probably incredibly poor judgment on Snyder’s part.

I’ll have to wait and see how much connects with me personally from the director’s cuts. If it helps validate in some way that I’m not simply a Snyder sycophant, I’m not keen on Sucker Punch, Owls of Ga’Hoole, and Army of the Dead. I appreciate the idea behind Sucker Punch and appreciate some aspects of it but it doesn’t resonate much with me deep down. And it’s an example of the “bloated-ness” that can ensue when Zack throws in the kitchen sink with an ambitious idea that he has. Owls is just not appealing to me in any way except visually (which is not enough!). I have no idea what he is trying to do with that movie but it doesn’t work at all for me. AotD is just kind of bland feeling to me. I don’t care a whole lot what is happening, unfortunately.

But I genuinely do kind of like the characters, story, and universe of Rebel Moon. It’s fun (for me). I’m not expecting it to be a masterpiece on the level of 2001: A Space Odyssey, lol. But as popcorn entertainment I can easily roll with it.