Hot Toys The Dark Knight Joker DX/Artisan 1/6 Scale Figure

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
Simple, you use reference of him in costume on set, but not under color grading.

This way you get the best of both worlds, no blue color grading, no WB Lot costume museum lighting.

View attachment 739787

But there is likely a scenario where we never seen the Joker in the movie with this tone jacket. So you could be matching to a color that he never actually wears in the movie regardless of what it looks like in real life. So the philosophical argument is the color in the movie after the color grade has been applied is the color of the jacket because the color grade in an artistic choice the film makers made (and many times, certain colors are chosen not for their real life properties, but for how they will appear in the final product). The color of the jacket on film is the true in-world representation of the color. In the BTS stills, we aren't seeing in-world Joker, we're seeing Heath Ledger dressed up as the joker.

Imagine a movie with a more severe color grade (let's use Oh Brother Where Art Thou since it's the classic example and responsible for the way films are color graded today). If you were making a representation of George Clooney's character, a saturated, real world wardrobe wouldn't be accurate to what we see on screen. And wouldn't read as being accurate. You'd need to work from the footage of the film itself and match the warm, desaturated tones.

Cocoboloboy · Nov 23, 2024

rory said:
Long story short. It’s impossible to scale down and produce a 100% accurate Joker that will satisfy the majority.

Ummm…I beg to differ.

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

rory said:
While it makes sense to color match to what’s onscreen, to get something that looks similar to the naked eye, as opposed to how it looks in the prop shop off screen, it’s nearly impossible since the lighting, and color grading changes so dramatically scene to scene, there would be no single definitive onscreen look. It’s like trying to nail down a definitive hair and makeup, the best you could hope for is a broad average. But even then, people wouldn’t be happy, because an average, by definition, wouldn’t be something seen directly in the film, just an aggregate.

Long story short. It’s impossible to scale down and produce a 100% accurate Joker that will satisfy the majority.

100%

I was just throwing a (legit) wrench into the discussions of color accuracy. Just things to consider when thinking about what we're actually trying to match and why

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

Color is color, this is how it is.

If the figure’s surroundings were color graded,
I’d agree.

Wor-Gar · Nov 23, 2024

But in both these photos (below) you still have "studio lights" either warming things up or cooling them off -- just look at the vest, two different colors...

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

That’s why you find a middle ground between those two, color grading isn’t apart of the conversation.
If it’s done in post, it doesn’t apply to the product. Had they dyed the materials darker, then yes.

Lighting is different than color grading, one factors in, the other is applied as a layer. When making a 1:6 suit iteration, you find a material, then observe it in different lighting to really figure out if it’s a match.

If we’re going the color graded route, then he needs a blue blazer, which in no realm it ever was.

Gipetto0812 · Nov 23, 2024

a-dev said:
While that hair is obviously better than the stock sculpted hair I'm impressed by how well the stock paint holds up next to that custom.

I agree. Could barely tell it was even repainted at first glance

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
Color is color, this is how it is.

If the figure’s surroundings were color graded,
I’d agree.

View attachment 739791
View attachment 739794

"color is color"

I don't agree with this. What if for the entirety of the film, the colour grade made that green read as more of an aqua on-screen? Would you want a figure with the real-life green or the aqua as it is represented on film? Obviously in TDK the color grade is a bit more subtle, but the discussions here about color accuracy are equally as subtle.
I would argue that the green we see in your photos here are never seen in the movie.

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
That’s why you find a middle ground between those two, color grading isn’t apart of the conversation.
If it’s done in post, it doesn’t apply to the product. Had they dyed the materials darker, then yes.

Lighting is different than color grading, one factors in, the other is applied as a layer. When making a 1:6 suit iteration, you find a material, then observe it in different lighting to really figure out if it’s a match.

Color grade in the movie is everything. They choose colors not for how they will appear in real life, but how they will appear on film. There are examples where the color you see in real life doesn't look anything like the color you see in the movie. so is the real life color the accurate representation? I would say no

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

Jive Turkey said:
Obviously in TDK the color grade is a bit more subtle, but the discussions here about color accuracy are equally as subtle.
I would argue that the green we see in your photos here are never seen in the movie.

The color grading in TDK is not subtle.
It’s a blue tint with a dark gritty wash.
Look at Ledger’s coat and hair…
This is why InArt gave y’all orange ginger roots…
It’s stupid.

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
The color grading in TDK is not subtle.
It’s a blue tint with a dark gritty wash.
Look at Ledger’s coat and hair…
This is why InArt gave y’all orange ginger roots…
It’s stupid.

View attachment 739805

"a bit more subtle" was in reference to color swapping. As in "the color grade of TDK is a bit more subtle than completely swapping green out for aqua"

But even then, it's subtle in general when you compare it to some other movies in that it doesn't immediately call attention to itself. Compare TDK to Blade Runner 2049 for example.

Editing to add:
I'm 100% not saying you're wrong to want to color match the real life wardrobe. If anything, I think this just all shows that we're all looking for different things when it comes to "true" accuracy.
And I love how nerdy you all are in your interest in the subtitles of your figures

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

Jive Turkey said:
But even then, it's subtle in general when you compare it to some other movies in that it doesn't immediately call attention to itself. Compare TDK to Blade Runner 2049 for example.

Oh well in that case, certainly.
Beautiful film, that is.
I don’t revisit it much because of just how brilliantly shot the original is.

Still, I just find the proper colors far more appealing in a display than the washed out muted overlayed false tones that appear on screen. There’s no life in that dark purple, add in the fact that all of Heath’s purple coat wearing scenes were at night, making it look even darker.

Jive Turkey · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
Still, I just find the proper colors far more appealing in a display than the washed out muted overlayed false tones that appear on screen.

And really, that's all that matters

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

Jive Turkey said:
And really, that's all that matters

Like the DX01 was so bland to me. I much prefer the tones of the Kato coat I’ve swapped to than the dark purple.

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

intothevoid said:
Having managed the orders for Kato, I’ll have to check my records but I’m sure the total number of outfits was a lot less than 100

Probably closer to 50

We need to see if he’s at all interested in doing one last run.

rory · Nov 23, 2024

“Color is color, that’s how it is”?

That’s simply not true in this case. You posted a photo. It doesn’t matter that it was not film graded. That single photo has its own white balance. The color is lit with lighting that has its own unique color temperature reflecting off the fabric. THEN the photo is compressed for the web and this further changes the colors on screen. AND THEN the device you’re viewing the photo on displays the colors in its own gamut!

At no point is “the color is the color” in any photograph. Any photo or video is simply showing a unique reproduction of that color.

Nick D said:
Color is color, this is how it is.

If the figure’s surroundings were color graded,
I’d agree.

View attachment 739791
View attachment 739794

Nick D · Nov 23, 2024

rory said:
“Color is color, that’s how it is”?

That’s simply not true in this case. You posted a photo. It doesn’t matter that it was not film graded. That single photo has its own white balance. The color is lit with lighting that has its own unique color temperature reflecting off the fabric. THEN the photo is compressed for the web and this further changes the colors on screen. AND THEN the device you’re viewing the photo on displays the colors in its own gamut!

At no point is “the color is the color” in any photograph. Any photo or video is simply showing a unique reproduction of that color.

I understand all of this, however with the limited amount of photos we have, that is one of the better to use. Saying you want a color Heath never wore is basically what it is. We’re after what the costume designer envisioned no? Heath never had ginger hair but you’d think he had if you went off of what’s “screen accurate” in the Mob Scene.

What I’m saying is if you feel the suit should be dark, his hair should have ginger roots. Can’t pick and choose what you like on screen. The photo I used happens to be a proper middle ground of color. Not overly lit, not washed out in darkness either. Sure you take into account the camera used and its settings at the time, but that’s easier to work with than full on color grading that may or may not be equally dispersed scene to scene.

hokietwo · Nov 23, 2024

Cocoboloboy said:
Ummm…I beg to differ.

View attachment 739790

Wrong color socks, so fail. Rest is perfect

.

batfan08 · Nov 23, 2024

Personally, my somewhat red/green colorblind ass is ready to come in here and duke it out with all of you on how all your Jokers are inaccurate, no matter how much you spend on them. :lol

rory · Nov 23, 2024

Nick D said:
I understand all of this, however with the limited amount of photos we have, that is one of the better to use. Saying you want a color Heath never wore is basically what it is. We’re after what the costume designer envisioned no? Heath never had ginger hair but you’d think he had if you went off of what’s “screen accurate” in the Mob Scene.

What I’m saying is if you feel the suit should be dark, his hair should have ginger roots. Can’t pick and choose what you like on screen. The photo I used happens to be a proper middle ground of color. Not overly lit, not washed out in darkness either. Sure you take into account the camera used and its settings at the time, but that’s easier to work with than full on color grading that may or may not be equally dispersed scene to scene.

I hear you man. You prefer the “on set” as opposed to “on film look”. But in order to match that, InArt or Hot Toys would need actual swatches of the screen used fabric to base their choices on, not photos for the reasons already discussed here. Which one would think they’d be able to get their hands on, given how much HT works with the studios on these figures. The problem with the “middle ground” approach is that, there again, it’s subjective territory. They need the real thing to base it on for fidelity.

Hot Toys The Dark Knight Joker DX/Artisan 1/6 Scale Figure

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