700 Billion Buy out plan defeated.....

[barbelith]

Right. Businessmen who dominate because of mixed economic policies. Businessmen who would fail under laissez-faire.

Are you seriously going to argue that Wall Street would have chosen not to ride the housing and credit bubbles?

Of course you are. Sometimes I forget you take Ayn Rand seriously.

But the thing is ... they did choose to ride those bubbles. And they always will, because the random guy at Lehman Bros doesn't give a damn about Lehman Bros existing a decade from now. They care about the bonuses and golden parachute they'll see in the five years they're there.

 

[devilof76]

And as long as there are bailouts like this, the companies that employ such businesmen will continue to survive.

There wouldn't have been a housing or credit bubble under a free system. You only get this kind of trash in a mixed economy.

You really don't know anything about the late 19th century economy, do you?

 

[barbelith]

There wouldn't have been a housing or credit bubble under a free system.

The only thing stopping the CA housing bubble from becoming even larger were the regulations governing jumbo loans. I know you're a slave to the free market fantasy but it's just that - a fantasy. The market will never be rational because people aren't rational. There will always be bubbles in a capitalist system.

 

[devilof76]

Those 'bubbles' are called business failures. And in a free system, they actually fail. But I don't expect you to understand that because in your fantasy mixed economic world, a leash on the neck of the profit motive is a panacea, and not a means to death by strangulation.

You know, there are some people who are rational. And when they're free to operate in an economy, they dominate it. Why do you think the freedom was revoked? The irrational demanded equal rights.

 

[barbelith]

The irrational demanded equal rights.

Enjoy rereading Atlas Shrugged. I'm sure it'll keep you warm at night.

 

[devilof76]

You've got nothing.

 

[Mesa]

Enjoy rereading Atlas Shrugged. I'm sure it'll keep you warm at night.

Barb, are you even a collector? Or just here for the political discussion?

 

[The Ween]

Barb, are you even a collector? Or just here for the political discussion?

I wonder if my Mother's business fails if the government will give her a couple of million.

 

[Mesa]

I wonder if my Mother's business fails if the government will give her a couple of million.

That's how it looks, so no worries, if your mom's business tanks, she'll actually be rewarded by the government. It's motivation to fail.

Seriously, in all honesty, I think this crappy bailout was a necessity to prevent total economic collapse, but I wonder what the long term effect is going to be. I don't think we'll know that until much later.

 

[devilof76]

The more I listen, the more it sounds like all they're trying to avoid is a recession. That, and create an excuse to go on the biggest pork spree they've had in years.

 

[Mesa]

The more I listen, the more it sounds like all they're trying to avoid is a recession. That, and create an excuse to go on the biggest pork spree they've had in years.

I say return the line item veto or pass a bill with one issue per bill (i.e. no pork). Our forefathers are probably turning over in their graves seeing at what has become of Congress.

 

[The Ween]

I say return the line item veto or pass a bill with one issue per bill (i.e. no pork). Our forefathers are probably turning over in their graves seeing at what has become of Congress.

Get rid of "pork" and lobbyists. We'll be better off.

 

[barbelith]

You've got nothing.

It's more that there's no point in having a serious economics discussion with a Randian.

Seriously, in all honesty, I think this crappy bailout was a necessity to prevent total economic collapse, but I wonder what the long term effect is going to be.

Not good. The real mess is derivatives and we haven't done anything about that yet...

 

[devilof76]

It's more that there's no point in having a serious economics discussion with a Randian.

The term is Objectivist.

And I could say the same for an altruist-pragmatist-fascist. So we'll just pretend I did.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Okay, the plan passed - why did the market go down again?

And you guys really need to lighten up.

 

[LChinoz]

Okay, the plan passed - why did the market go down again?

And you guys really need to lighten up.

This is what I thought would happen to the market

 

[devilof76]

I won't say I t*** y** s*.



Who knows. It might change when they have the money in hand.

 

[The Mike]

The market went down again because investors are sensing that this plan will not be immediate and continue as business was before. It doesn't help that the Global Markets do not have much faith in what is being done either. Until we see some actual product from this new law, the markets will continue to tumble.

 

[Chimera 1]

Okay, the plan passed - why did the market go down again?

It went down because armeggedon doesn't fit into investor portfolios
If they could profit off of the apocalypse then it would have happened already.
No in all seriousness, the market dropped because Wallstreet lost faith in the plan. Many beleive it came to late and that the damage is already done. They also know that unless WE get more money WE won't be spending any money. Winter is coming fast and people aren't shopping. Foreclosures in winter states will be halted because you can't evict someone during the winter months and you can't turn off electricity and other major utilities during winter. the holiday season is also quickly approaching and stores haven't been able to order merchandise and consumers are curbing spending. Once October hit it was to late for the plan to make a difference because we have no choice but to cut back on spending.

 

[Shropt]

Wow, I wasn't scared before, but now I am. The Dow is now under 10k.