ALIEN and ALIENS Thread...

[figuremaster_les]

How I understand the brown SS Alien...someone else got the Grid exclusive...

https://www.blister.jp/item5470.html


My Alien dome theory two cents...

Regarding domes vs no domes, I think since there is a Queen egg layer, that the sans dome aliens are female workers, just like bees, and the domed warriors are male drones. The male comes out first, preceeding a queen and makes the way for the queen, who would be the first chestburster out. The drone, or drones, may even impregnate the queen. The queen lays her eggs and the females, the harder fighters and nest builders, are born.
This works solidly for Alien through AR, as in AR the queen is made first and the DNA is all screwy and the drones are there instead of workers.

I also like, and am ok with the idea that the domes are shed after a time.

In ALIEN, Ash said that the aliens had a "funny way of shedding cells and replacing them with polarized silicon, making tough little SOB's" This actually supports the dome shed theory.
I like both the male/female notion, and the shed dome theory.

As for the ALIENS warriors being automatically tougher than the ALIEN or ALIEN 3 one, though a nice personal preference, is not consistant with anything in any of those first three films.
The first alien, a drone, was alone, the humans had no weapons, and the alien had no reason to hurry about for anything. The people were fish in a barrel. It could simply take it's time. Plus, there was no others, it was alone, so caution was warranted in it's behavior.

In ALIENS, the warriors had to fling themselves into battle to protect the queen and her egg cache, and that was priority one in their world. There were threats, even though we didn't see them, the fights before the Colonial Marines arrived, between the colonists and the brood, set the tone, and taught the aliens that these "hosts" were fighters, so the warrior horde had to act more quickly, as a team, and often suicidally, to protect the Queen. So, all that was actually different about the ALIENS were that they were action motivated. Good call. Made for a more action movie. The sub-dome design is essentially unchanged for the first two movies.

The ALIEN 3 supercedes any notion that a single, domed alien was slow, or unwilling to fight.

As for AR, they were, and had, genetic anomolies. They were also part Ripley.

As for AVP, the idea that a pre-ALIEN alien would look like a post Ripley DNA alien is beyond me. Bad idea and bad continuity.

Give me the boney GIGER A L I E N any day!

That's my two cents.

 

[twistedfreak]

All of this talk is VERY interesting. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on the aliens.

 

[abake]

Ahhh... it's a never ending debate, but I like some of the theories presented here. It's been too long without any good Alien themed discussions!

 

[figuremaster_les]

One other thought...and this is really important to me in my discussions about Drones and worker Aliens etc....

Ever notice how in ALIEN, the warrior doesn't attack the women in the same way? When it's in there with Parker and Lambert, notice how it's stalking Lambert, watch the scene unfold, and Parker, being male, and who attacks, is a threat and is very quickly and immediately killed? No sluggish Alien in that scene!
Ripley is not threatened in the shuttle either. Is the Alien aware that Ripley and Lambert are females, and not having a Queen handy to impregnate...
um...is it trying to do what it does? Is that why we never see what happens to poor Lambert? We hear it...UGH!!!! What is that tail doing????!??!

As for Alien 3, well, he/it knows Ripley is carrying a Queen already.

Aliens are NASTY! If they are alone, and women are handy....

Oh you nasty boy!

Food for thought.

Oh, and how it's head is this HUGE phallus!
No wonder Cameron changed it for Aliens!

 

[dekadentdave]

I always thought the Alien was paralyzing Lambert with its tail so it could take her back to the nest and coccoon her like Dallas. Parker moved to attack it so it was forced to kill him immediately. It might have killed Brett out of protection for the nest because it didn't want to be discovered and it was being territorial down there on the lower decks of the Nostromo.

 

[PosterBoyKelly]

I'm really wanting Ripley and a regular black Alien, think I should jump on em now or maybe wait and try to get them cheaper second hand?

 

[dekadentdave]

I'd get them while you can before you get raped on the secondary market.

Anyway, I always thought the Alien was stalking the crew in order to coccoon them for more hosts. It had to make a few arbitrary kills but its priority was to capture them for hosts to ensure a new colony would spawn. Arbitrarily killing them all without purpose would make absolutely no sense and would be contradictory to Darwin's law.

 

[figuremaster_les]

Maybe....
BUT...
If it were intending to just paralyse Lambert, what killed her? Fright? Maybe.
I think back to when ALIEN first came out, before all this homogonizing started with other movies that changed the whole mythos...and when it first hit, that Giger art was the rage. Everyone was talking about all that weird, and very sexual art. The Alien is no exception to this. There is no way, in the original movie, that there wasn't some intent to suggest a sexual approach in the alien's actions towards the women, and maybe even the men (the shot of Lambert's feet and the tail tip is actually footage of Brett's feet inserted in instead...so what were they thinking?)

Later, for simplicity and so that ALIENS was an all out action film, some of all this weird subtext was toned down. The angle with Cameron was all this female power stuff, and the Ripley/Newt - Queen/brood(most likely female) is all this female ness theme that Cameron is admittedly fond of. He changed a lot about female character strengths with ALIENS and T2.

But, with ALIEN, and even in some ways, Alien 3. there is a subtle sexual thing there, with Ripley for sure. So, I think the Alien is supposed to be some kind of a male in theme at any rate. Originally. It "feels" that way to me.
But, the whole thing is so open to interpretation, that there is no absolute about it.
I just hate it when it becomes a flat out bug hunt theme, and no sense of esoteric "other" is left intact. I like the mystery, and hope someone will make another ALIEN movie with some sense of that again.

I read that Ridley Scott said that the ALIEN design was no longer scary, and if he remade, or did another movie, then he would change the design.
I think that's BS!!! The ALIEN is one of the scariest designs Ever to me. To change it is to lose something primal that H.R. Giger created in the first place. It not that it's no longer scary, it's that no one making films with Aliens in them, understands them or even has an idea that there is an underlying element of threat there that can be worked by the right story and art direction and photography, etc.

It is still with us, right? There are still these toys being made. right? Ergo, it is STILL SCARY! Timeless.

Anyway, back to what makes them tick!

I enjoy any such discussion. Aliens are still too cool to me! Creepy still!
Predators are raw power. Aliens are...the Devil. Creepy.

 

[ambac]

One other thought...and this is really important to me in my discussions about Drones and worker Aliens etc....

Ever notice how in ALIEN, the warrior doesn't attack the women in the same way? When it's in there with Parker and Lambert, notice how it's stalking Lambert, watch the scene unfold, and Parker, being male, and who attacks, is a threat and is very quickly and immediately killed? No sluggish Alien in that scene!
Ripley is not threatened in the shuttle either. Is the Alien aware that Ripley and Lambert are females, and not having a Queen handy to impregnate...
um...is it trying to do what it does? Is that why we never see what happens to poor Lambert? We hear it...UGH!!!! What is that tail doing????!??!

As for Alien 3, well, he/it knows Ripley is carrying a Queen already.

Aliens are NASTY! If they are alone, and women are handy....

Oh you nasty boy!

Food for thought.

Oh, and how it's head is this HUGE phallus!
No wonder Cameron changed it for Aliens!

Heh, heh! Putting aside sexual context of the Alien in general, we know from the deleted scenes from Alien that the alien is looking for host bodies to turn into new eggs. It will kill anyone that seems like they are a threat, but dead or alive doesn't seem to matter because Brett was killed and Dallas was not yet they're both being turned into eggs in the deleted scene where Ripley finds them. I recall in a Cinefex or some similar magazine that someone involved with the production was explaining that within one perceived context of the movie the alien actually has a very, very short life cycle. From chestburster to adult alien it is meant to just create new eggs then die. When it's on the shuttle with Ripley, it's lethargic becuase it's nearing the end of it's life cycle.

And then Cameron made ALIENS and all of this is out the window!

BTW Cameron did not change the phallic imagery of the alien head. They're still basically the same shape. This is most evident in the scene where Ripley runs over the alien that just gets up with the APC.

 

[dekadentdave]

What Ridley is getting at is that the Aliens have become comic-book monters (i.e. AVP). I think if they made another one and shot the Alien very minimalistic in shadows and barely seeing it, that its form or sillouette is still primordial and effective visually to invoke fear. It's funny because driving to work the other day I burst out loud into laughter thinking about how the Aliens have a very phallic design and the Predators have a very vaginal design and that shot in AVP where the Alien and the Predator come face-to-face makes it look like they are about to have intercourse. That was the first time I ever even thought of that. Anyway, I don't really care about the sexual imagery of either because I don't look at them that way. To me, both creatures are otherworldly and terrifying and that's good enough for me.

 

[ambac]

Maybe....
BUT...
If it were intending to just paralyse Lambert, what killed her? Fright? Maybe.
I think back to when ALIEN first came out, before all this homogonizing started with other movies that changed the whole mythos...and when it first hit, that Giger art was the rage. Everyone was talking about all that weird, and very sexual art. The Alien is no exception to this. There is no way, in the original movie, that there wasn't some intent to suggest a sexual approach in the alien's actions towards the women, and maybe even the men (the shot of Lambert's feet and the tail tip is actually footage of Brett's feet inserted in instead...so what were they thinking?)

Later, for simplicity and so that ALIENS was an all out action film, some of all this weird subtext was toned down. The angle with Cameron was all this female power stuff, and the Ripley/Newt - Queen/brood(most likely female) is all this female ness theme that Cameron is admittedly fond of. He changed a lot about female character strengths with ALIENS and T2.

But, with ALIEN, and even in some ways, Alien 3. there is a subtle sexual thing there, with Ripley for sure. So, I think the Alien is supposed to be some kind of a male in theme at any rate. Originally. It "feels" that way to me.
But, the whole thing is so open to interpretation, that there is no absolute about it.
I just hate it when it becomes a flat out bug hunt theme, and no sense of esoteric "other" is left intact. I like the mystery, and hope someone will make another ALIEN movie with some sense of that again.

I read that Ridley Scott said that the ALIEN design was no longer scary, and if he remade, or did another movie, then he would change the design.
I think that's BS!!! The ALIEN is one of the scariest designs Ever to me. To change it is to lose something primal that H.R. Giger created in the first place. It not that it's no longer scary, it's that no one making films with Aliens in them, understands them or even has an idea that there is an underlying element of threat there that can be worked by the right story and art direction and photography, etc.

It is still with us, right? There are still these toys being made. right? Ergo, it is STILL SCARY! Timeless.

Anyway, back to what makes them tick!

I enjoy any such discussion. Aliens are still too cool to me! Creepy still!
Predators are raw power. Aliens are...the Devil. Creepy.

I actually agree with Scott on his assessment on the alien. It has lost a lot of it's impact. In 1979 we never saw anything of it's like before. It was incredibly scary and intimidating. The problem is that with exposure to the alien in all the sequels, and comics, and video games, and toys, it has lost much of it's menace. Familiarity breeds contempt in this case. Kids don't think the alien is scary, they think it looks cool. In today's day and age, with everyone creating all sorts of creatures and monsters all trying to be the next Alien, or Terminator, or Robocop, we've lost much of the power to scare on a pure visual sense. All the great designs were done in the late 70's and 80's in my opinion.

 

[dekadentdave]

That is no different than say The Creature From the Black Lagoon, or Frankenstein or The Wolf Man. They no longer invoke terror when I look at those. They are familiars. All things lose their ability to frighten once we have become disensitized to those images. That's why we are contantly thirsting for something new that we haven't seen before to scare the hell out of us again.

 

[dekadentdave]

I think one of the best movie monsters that still holds up today and still freaks me out every time I watch it is John Carpenter's The Thing. Why? Because you never know what the hell that thing is or who it is. That f'n scares the ***** out of me!

 

[figuremaster_les]

Good point Ambac. Cameron changed the whole shebang with that Queen.

I agree DDave, if looked at coldly, the life cycle of the Alien is very consistant, and the killing/coccooning etc., of characters is consistant with all that life cycle stuff. No doubt.

But, in 1979, when this was new, this was more than the average bugaboo scary critter!

So, to borrow a quote, This is rumor control...these are the facts....

There is an EGG,
out of which comes a FACEHUGGER,
which, for lack of a better term, rapes it's host, orally, and in so violating them, it deposits a live embryonic form that will rip and tear it's way, brutally, out of the host, killing them. Total host violation is already the order of the day. This is, metaphotically speaking, a very male attribute in nature.
This embryonic form, The CHESTBURSTER, which ironically, looks like a phallus, sheds it's skin, and becomes a fully formed adult in a very short amount of time. Disregarding it's nutritional requirements (conjecture: some of the kills are perhaps food, hence Brett? It has just undergone a HUGE metabolic development and would need immediate nourisment, regardless of whether that body can become an egg or not...)
Back to facts: This ADULT WARRIOR then attempts to catch and coccoon as many hosts as it can, for either, impregnation by eggs/facehuggers, or, it makes them into eggs (somehow) for future waves of hosts.

This is all that was set up in ALIEN.
As for ALIENS, the addition of the Queen makes this either one aspect of Alien biology, or there are several.

All that matters is, it does all this regardless of the host species, and regardless of the hosts desires or wants. This alien exists to exist. Plain. Simple.

If there are other aspects or attributes, or motivations, they must fall under the realm of speculation. Hence, all this debate and interest.

I still say, there is more to them than just reproduction and basic behavior. They are designs, and are therefore, representitive of the original creator's idea. In the case of ALIEN, they are also darkly, sexual. I didn't create them this way, the filmakers did. This is also an area that can be easily bypassed, as it is, quite disturbing.

My four cents. OK, I'll shut up now.

 

[ambac]

That is no different than say The Creature From the Black Lagoon, or Frankenstein or The Wolf Man. They no longer invoke terror when I look at those. They are familiars. All things lose their ability to frighten once we have become disensitized to those images. That's why we are contantly thirsting for something new that we haven't seen before to scare the hell out of us again.

Yup. Which was a point Cliver Barker made in a speech in the 80's to a group of horror writers. They relied on the old standards to scare; vampires, wolfmen, and ghosts. All old and tired. He gave us Cenobites, at the time one of the most original horror monsters ever. Then they got mismanaged into being what he preached about; old and tired.

 

[figuremaster_les]

I think one of the best movie monsters that still holds up today and still freaks me out every time I watch it is John Carpenter's The Thing. Why? Because you never know what the hell that thing is or who it is. That f'n scares the ***** out of me!

ABSOLUTELY!

 

[figuremaster_les]

Good points!
I think the times these things come from tell more about them than anything else.

It's why I refuse to watch modern horror. TOO SCARY FOR ME! Saw? Hostel? All that brutality crap, coming from people...not monsters...people....

Give me a monster! Something thematic that I can point at (collect) and say, Isn't that a cool looking THING. But, scary people...uh uh, no! Too real for my tastes!

What's Ridley Scott gonna do, make the Alien into some guy? That is just The Thing right? Ergo... that being so good.

 

[dekadentdave]

That's why Jason and Freddy and Michael don't really scare. To me, they are cartoon characters.

I'm more terrified by that freaky looking fossil of the astral navigator in that derelict ship than I am of the Alien when I watch it. Ridley had mentioned on the DVD commentary that was one aspect he was interested in exploring if he ever made a sequel.

 

[ambac]

That's why Jason and Freddy and Michael don't really scare. To me, they are cartoon characters.

I'm more terrified by that freaky looking fossil of the astral navigator in that derelict ship than I am of the Alien when I watch it. Ridley had mentioned on the DVD commentary that was one aspect he was interested in exploring if he ever made a sequel.

Totally agree on that point. When the audience starts rooting for the killer to dispatch his victims as messily as possible, they've crossed the line from scaring us to amusing us. All three fall into that category. We're just fond of them!

 

[dekadentdave]

I think what a lot of modern horror films are attempting (emphasis on "attempting") to do is to convey the point that we need look no further than ourselves to be terrified and that we are our own worst enemy. These are the themes that were explored effectively in films like Invasion of the Body Snatchers and The Thing that it is our own psychological paranoia that gets the best of us and drives people to commit unspeakable acts that humans are capable of where everyday familiars, the people that you know, there is something not quite right with them. Somehow, they are different. That's a powerful way to convey fear. I just watched The Astronaut's Wife. I groaned when I saw the trailer in the theater but I thought it at least had one thing going for it. It played on the fact that something was not quite right with Depp the whole film and there is this uneasy tension and creepiness that is building. The film is basically a rip off of Rosemary's Baby meets the X-Files and if it didn't have that going in its favor, would have been a complete dud.