Ant-Man: The Movie is official!

[karamazov80]

You're missing my point. I was referring only to Avengers 1, and the role of the ostensible leader vs. that of the actual focus of the film and de facto leader of the team. I'm not talking about screen time, and I'm not saying that Cyclops and Rogers were treated with equal respect across the board. Yes, Hawkeye and Thor had even smaller roles, as other X-Men did in the other films. Cyclops was totally screwed over in the previous X-films of course, and at least Rogers had a few bones thrown his way like a fair amount of screen time, a few jokes, somehow ending the Thor/Iron Man fight, and "leading" the team during the city fight. But at the end of the day, it's very clear that Whedon loves Iron Man and doesn't really care about Cap. This isn't new. Going back through Buffy and Firefly, you can also easily see how he loves the off-kilter comedic characters much more than straight men. But Stark was the star of Avengers in many ways, and he was the team leader in the same way that Wolvie was in the X-films.

 

[DiFabio]

So what should have been done differently? All of the team listened to Captain America, even Stark. Cap told them what to do, planned the fight, etc. He's clearly the leader, right? Originally, Rogers was the central character that the film focused on. But would that have made the film better instead of just being a straight forward ensemble? I'm not so sure.

Stark gets the missile "sacrifice" at the end, sure (he's also the only one that can fly, save for Thor), but Rogers gets that moment of taking the war in when he walks out into the city after having saved all those civilians. No other character gets that. He's the first one to really "sign up" and go after Loki, alone. I think he has just as many moments as Stark when I really think about it. Neither of them win the rivalry they have going on between each other, both of them have interesting plot threads that they follow.

Yeah, there's clearly a preference for Iron Man in Avengers, but he was technically the first in this film universe. He's also the most showy and extroverted so it makes sense that Cap would be more quiet and subtle compared to him. Those are the characters. Compare Rogers first appearance with the punching bag to Stark with Potts and Coulson. Those introductions pretty much speak to their characteristics. I'd have loved if the film focused on Rogers perspective as it was originally intended, but I don't think that would have been right for what they were trying to achieve. Whendon loves Iron Man, but if he didn't care about Cap, I doubt we would have gotten the scenes we did in Avengers. They certainly wouldn't have wasted their time filming this,






I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think Captain America was given a disservice in Avengers. It felt appropriate. I also don't think we'll have to worry about this sort of thing in the long run from what we've seen with AoU and what Civil War entails. RDJ/Iron Man will always have the edge since he was the "first" and is so ostentatious, but think about it, that has it's drawbacks. I really think they're going to set up Stark as the unlikeable one, if he isn't already there.

 

[karamazov80]

Stark one-ups Rogers at nearly every turn. Rogers was overly naive about SHIELD while Stark knew what was going on--in general Stark was the most wise in this film. Stark made jokes at Rogers' expense to which there was no real reciprocation, Stark was making the most firm decisions that shaped what the team did, Stark interacts with Loki one-on-one near the climax to the film, Stark made the sacrifice at the end. These are things that take any hope of a leadership mantle away from Rogers. It doesn't have to do with screen time, but the way the characters were made to progress through the story. You can explain it away by saying Stark had been around while Steve hadn't, and Steve had to grow and adjust to the times, etc. And for broad storytelling purposes that makes sense. But it doesn't change Rogers' role in the film. He was second fiddle all the way. Of course, I'm sure we'll see Steve come off more as a leader, and more positively in the next film when Stark's unsupervised, behind the scenes bungling leads to death and destruction, etc.

 

[DiFabio]

I want to see him beat down Stark and rip him out of the Iron Man suit.

Here's hoping that Civil War follows the comic moment where Stark is like "don't bother trying to fight Rogers, my suit has memorized all your moves/tactics", then Cap STILL finds a way to subdue him.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

It's clear that Tony Stark is the protagonist and the "Wolverine" of the franchise. Capt has a much better role then Cyclops and he's the leader, but not the protagonist. That really became evident when Stark and Loki had their verbal "showdown" before the battle. The leader of the villains and main antagonist vs the main hero of the film.

It's funny, Iron Man became the "top guy" after the 2008 film, but before that, it was Capt who was the protagonist and main character in the Avengers. Just 2 years before Iron Man (2008) was release, Marvel made an animated Avengers film and the story revolved around Capt.

Notice Iron Man's place in the animated film, before the 2008 RDJ film.

Now notice Iron Man's place in the Theatrical poster...and who is that back there? The leader.

Tony Stark the character is not the leader of the Avengers in the fictional world, but he is the protagonist and the main character in the real world, just like Wolverine.

 

[jye4ever]

Real world?

MCU is still fictional.

 

[RIDDICK]

Shame on you, Jye! It was real for TCPoC.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Real world?

MCU is still fictional.

You know what I mean...RDJ is the "top guy" in the real world, but in the film/fictional world, he follows orders from Fury and Capt and he's part of a "team." But he's the real star of the show

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Shame on you, Jye! It was real for TCPoC.

Yeah, it's Christmas all over again

 

[jye4ever]

You know what I mean...RDJ is the "top guy" in the real world, but in the film/fictional world, he follows orders from Fury and Capt and he's part of a "team." But he's the real star of the show

Crap, now I understand.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Real world?

MCU is still fictional.

WHAT?!? The MCU is FICTIONAL?!?

Why wasn't I told about this?!?!?! I WANT ANSWERS!!!

 

[jye4ever]

Tcpoc was speaking tongues.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

 

[jye4ever]

If in charge means pointing to bad guys then yeah, Stark is in charge in my collection.

 

[DiFabio]

If in charge means pointing to bad guys then yeah, Stark is in charge in my collection.

 

[jye4ever]

... ...

 

[RIDDICK]

No, Fabio. Bad Fabio!
Cap's pointing at where Stark should fly and what Hulk should smash.

 

[Hologram AI]

Yellow Jacket

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

What is that? Or...who is that? Looks like Iron Spider.

 

[karamazov80]

Looks pretty bad-ass. Supposedly that will be the Ant-Man villain. In the comic, Yellow Jacket was initially a variation on Ant-Man, and was Hank Pym (it was in this guise that he smacked the wasp around), but later it was a female villain.

Iron Man was definitely a B-list character prior to the first film, though he was a borderline A-lister in the comics. Cap was in the small group of A-list Marvel characters as I would define them, but his lack of exposure outside the comics put him well below Spidey, Wolverine, and Hulk in my mind.