Ban the Flag??? Seriously VVTF!!

[thecapn]

Well, I don't agree with banning, but I do think there should be some changes. I believe that pretty much everything in life has it's place in moderation, and patriotism is one of them. I don't know the story in question, but I do know my own experiences with the flag and patriotism, and sometimes it can go to far.

For example, when I was a senior in HS, 911 happened. And while a lot of the patriotism at the time brought the country together, a bunch of big guys beat the crap out of a few muslim girls walking home from school. That's not right, and they spent weeks in the school trying to downplay the patriotic fever that erupted at the time. I will never forget that the kids tried to DEFEND themselves by saying that all muslims were terrorists and they DESERVED it, and that they heard it on TV and from parents and relatives. Granted, that's the parents' and schools' job to teach them otherwise, but it really makes one wonder about politics in a school setting.

The Texas schoolbook debacle that's going on right now is proof of that...politics do NOT belong in school, aside from in a History or Government class (as an aside, I agree with some of the changes that the Texas schoolboard decided on. The moral majority, for example, is part of history and deserves to be taught, and this is coming from a really liberal guy here).

I am an advocate of banning the Pledge of Allegiance, though...as a child, I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses (though I LONG AGO rid myself of that mess), and we didn't do the pledge, because God (if you believe in one, I don't), doesn't belong in any nation's pledge. God is multinational, and saying that God backs the United States ONLY ("One nation, under God") is pretty ridiculous and anti-Christian. And if you take that line as meaning that all the people are united under a Christian God, then that's pretty ridiculous too. I can understand having a Pledge that says, basically, that we respect the flag as a symbol of the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans, but that's not really what it's saying right now. I got ridiculed SO much by ignorant kids who didn't understand and didn't care about my rights not to do the pledge, and I'm still a little pissed about that.

I'm not advocating banning the flag in schools - it should be treated with respect, as should the flags of any countries. I'm just saying we have to keep it, and what it represents, in it's proper place.

 

[carbo-fation]

We can always watch CNN (Communist New Network) or MSNBC (no joke needed since the station is the joke).

Every news station has a bias but FOX News is just ridiculous. They shouldn't even be called a news network but rather a sensationalist network.

 

[risingstar]

Nations, and allegiance to the state you live in, are still important. In some countries, the flag is not as important a symbol of the nation as other things (like a royal family, or cultural/religious heritage). But in the U.S., it is probably as strong a symbol as we have. This is not akin to arguments that references to Christ be taken away from school. You can choose to support or not to support any given religion in this country. But if you live here, then you are implicitly supporting the country and its core values/symbols. If you don't, you should not live here, IMO.

So yeah, banning the flag is a stupid idea. Teachers should be channeling kids' frustrations and differences in more constructive ways (debate club, sports, etc.). Not taking away the issue of contention when it is something that is a symbol of the very country you are living in.

However, this seems to be a silly question. As Shropt says, it is completely out of context and reads to me like those ridiculous questions Lou Dobbs used to pose on his website. Only a few wackos would seriously consider banning a U.S. flag from a U.S. school to reduce fighting.

I would imagine that the actual true nature of those core values are very open to debate. Who is to decide what they are, when they should be changed or ammended (if at all), if they're merely moral in nature, or even if they're legally sanctionable?

At the risk of sounding overly PC, the flag has come to mean many different things to many different people, especially post 9/11.

 

[drbrad1975]

Well, I don't agree with banning, but I do think there should be some changes. I believe that pretty much everything in life has it's place in moderation, and patriotism is one of them. I don't know the story in question, but I do know my own experiences with the flag and patriotism, and sometimes it can go to far.

For example, when I was a senior in HS, 911 happened. And while a lot of the patriotism at the time brought the country together, a bunch of big guys beat the crap out of a few muslim girls walking home from school. That's not right, and they spent weeks in the school trying to downplay the patriotic fever that erupted at the time. I will never forget that the kids tried to DEFEND themselves by saying that all muslims were terrorists and they DESERVED it, and that they heard it on TV and from parents and relatives. Granted, that's the parents' and schools' job to teach them otherwise, but it really makes one wonder about politics in a school setting.

The Texas schoolbook debacle that's going on right now is proof of that...politics do NOT belong in school, aside from in a History or Government class (as an aside, I agree with some of the changes that the Texas schoolboard decided on. The moral majority, for example, is part of history and deserves to be taught, and this is coming from a really liberal guy here).

I am an advocate of banning the Pledge of Allegiance, though...as a child, I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses (though I LONG AGO rid myself of that mess), and we didn't do the pledge, because God (if you believe in one, I don't), doesn't belong in any nation's pledge. God is multinational, and saying that God backs the United States ONLY ("One nation, under God") is pretty ridiculous and anti-Christian. And if you take that line as meaning that all the people are united under a Christian God, then that's pretty ridiculous too. I can understand having a Pledge that says, basically, that we respect the flag as a symbol of the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans, but that's not really what it's saying right now. I got ridiculed SO much by ignorant kids who didn't understand and didn't care about my rights not to do the pledge, and I'm still a little pissed about that.

I'm not advocating banning the flag in schools - it should be treated with respect, as should the flags of any countries. I'm just saying we have to keep it, and what it represents, in it's proper place.

If you are a citizen of the country then you should respect the flag. If not, you shouldn't be in public schools. The flag should say without question. There are other countries to go.

 

[drbrad1975]

Every news station has a bias but FOX News is just ridiculous. They shouldn't even be called a news network but rather a sensationalist network.

Their news is fine. You shouldn't count their pudits like doomsday Beck or Hannity. As far as reporting, they do a fine job.

 

[Reinhardt]

But but... I am offended with the flag. I'm not American, so the flag offends me (even though I live in America). Oh, while you are at it, ban all crosses... actually ban every religious icon because it is offensive to me.

 

[risingstar]

Every news station has a bias but FOX News is just ridiculous. They shouldn't even be called a news network but rather a sensationalist network.

Fox has millions upon millions of supporters. The station sells this sense of moral outrage which often gives people this sense of superiority over others who might think differently or over those who get mired in the grey thinking of things. Whether we like it or not, the Fox voice represents a large segment of the population, even if a minority.

In my mind, the minority generally has the loudest voice because they generally represent the segment of the population with the most to lose or are under the greatest threat. Once the "civility card" is played, the majority is all but compelled to play ball otherwise they risk being perceived as unreasonable, or worse, uncivilized.

 

[Reinhardt]

Every news station has a bias but FOX News is just ridiculous. They shouldn't even be called a news network but rather a sensationalist network.

Almost every news station is a joke. The only reason why FOX gets attacked all the time is because they are the only news program that caters to the Right. Every other news program caters to the Left. Why can't we just have news? You know, the news where there is no political spin on it?

 

[risingstar]

If you are a citizen of the country then you should respect the flag. If not, you shouldn't be in public schools. The flag should say without question. There are other countries to go.

While I respect your opinion, it's very absolute in nature. It appears very one way or no way. It risks limiting one's openness to hear what others might be trying to say. We can't always assume we're aware of everyone else's perspective on things.

Blind faith is dangerous. We can't always assume that everyone who stands by the flag does so for the same wholesome reasons. Asking questions is not only a right, it's a responsibility.

 

[Kuzeh]

Wait FOX "news"

 

[drbrad1975]

Almost every news station is a joke. The only reason why FOX gets attacked all the time is because they are the only news program that caters to the Right. Every other news program caters to the Left. Why can't we just have news? You know, the news where there is no political spin on it?

I can totally agree with that!

 

[drbrad1975]

While I respect your opinion, it's very absolute in nature. It appears very one way or no way. It risks limiting one's openness to hear what others might be trying to say. We can't always assume we're aware of everyone else's perspective on things.

Blind faith is dangerous. We can't always assume that everyone who stands by the flag does so for the same wholesome reasons. Asking questions is not only a right, it's a responsibility.

I get my news from as many sources as possible. I think I do quite well. As far as the flag, look at the World Cup in June/July. There will be tons of flag waving there!! I love it!! It is awesome to see their national pride!! Ban the World Cup. Ban it all!!

 

[risingstar]

Almost every news station is a joke. The only reason why FOX gets attacked all the time is because they are the only news program that caters to the Right. Every other news program caters to the Left. Why can't we just have news? You know, the news where there is no political spin on it?

Can't happen. The mere choice of which news to discuss already expresses a political opinion.

 

[Kabukiman]

Why can't we just have news? You know, the news where there is no political spin on it?

Because people don't care about the news. Thats why Fox News and it's full schedule of opinion shows is trouncing everybody else in ratings.

 

[drbrad1975]

While I respect your opinion, it's very absolute in nature. It appears very one way or no way. It risks limiting one's openness to hear what others might be trying to say. We can't always assume we're aware of everyone else's perspective on things.

Blind faith is dangerous. We can't always assume that everyone who stands by the flag does so for the same wholesome reasons. Asking questions is not only a right, it's a responsibility.

Look at the problem with the school system. Teachers being laid off left and right. Have you though of why?

 

[karamazov80]

I would imagine that the actual true nature of those core values are very open to debate. Who is to decide what they are, when they should be changed or ammended (if at all), if they're merely moral in nature, or even if they're legally sanctionable?

At the risk of sounding overly PC, the flag has come to mean many different things to many different people, especially post 9/11.

Though there has always been and will always be fundamental differences around the interpretation of components of the Constitution, etc., I believe that there are values that are at the core of the country (not all of them codified in the Constitution) that are non-negotiable, and that people should accept if they want to live here.

You have to accept the idea of a reasonably democratic/capitalistic system, you have to accept that people have "inalienable rights" to a reasonable freedom of thought and expression so long as you don't impose upon others' freedoms or otherwise impact the national interest, and you have to accept the idea that there are costs involved in obtaining the benefits of living here (paying taxes, following laws, respecting the symbols of the country) for instance.

You can disagree with specific areas of policy of course, and you can even disagree on interpretation of the Constitution, but you can't reject the most recognized symbol of the state if you are going to reap the benefits of living in that state, IMO. Of course, you actually can do this, but I don't think that one could in good conscience. One nice thing about this country is that you have the freedom to go elsewhere if you hate it so much. You can't have your cake and eat it too, IMO.

 

[karamazov80]

Can't happen. The mere choice of which news to discuss already expresses a political opinion.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/

 

[Memnoch]

Look at the problem with the school system. Teachers being laid off left and right. Have you though of why?

Because people who have no idea what it's like to be in a class room make the education laws. Progress goals have to be met by students who could give a rats behind about if they pass or fail. People want teachers held accountable but then they go and tie the teachers hands with lack of funding or authority to enforce rules. We also have to try and educate every student instead of focusing on the ones that actually want to be there to learn. So we get students who don't care about anything school related, parents and lawmakers who have no idea what goes on in classrooms today and laws generally designed to drive most teachers insane. Nothing much can get done, but it's all the teachers fault so let's just fire them all.

 

[Kuzeh]

Because people don't care about the news. Thats why Fox News and it's full schedule of opinion shows is trouncing everybody else in ratings.

I gotta agree with you...
It's like Jerry Springer and the like shows...
People are naturally morbid, good news DON'T sell... inflammatory and sensationalist ones like MOST news programs need to sell it.

A friend of mine used to work for Turner, she said that during 9/11 CNN made tons of money, that's why it was on 24/7 for months with serious disinformation up and down...

 

[FQRizzo]

Because people who have no idea what it's like to be in a class room make the education laws. Progress goals have to be met by students who could give a rats behind about if they pass or fail. People want teachers held accountable but then they go and tie the teachers hands with lack of funding or authority to enforce rules. We also have to try and educate every student instead of focusing on the ones that actually want to be there to learn. So we get students who don't care about anything school related, parents and lawmakers who have no idea what goes on in classrooms today and laws generally designed to drive most teachers insane. Nothing much can get done, but it's all the teachers fault so let's just fire them all.