Ban the Flag??? Seriously VVTF!!

[risingstar]

Though there has always been and will always be fundamental differences around the interpretation of components of the Constitution, etc., I believe that there are values that are at the core of the country (not all of them codified in the Constitution) that are non-negotiable, and that people should accept if they want to live here.

You have to accept the idea of a reasonably democratic/capitalistic system, you have to accept that people have "inalienable rights" to a reasonable freedom of thought and expression so long as you don't impose upon others' freedoms or otherwise impact the national interest, and you have to accept the idea that there are costs involved in obtaining the benefits of living here (paying taxes, following laws, respecting the symbols of the country) for instance.

You can disagree with specific areas of policy of course, and you can even disagree on interpretation of the Constitution, but you can't reject the most recognized symbol of the state if you are going to reap the benefits of living in that state, IMO. Of course, you actually can do this, but I don't think that one could in good conscience. One nice thing about this country is that you have the freedom to go elsewhere if you hate it so much. You can't have your cake and eat it too, IMO.

Some might argue that the Patriot act, and everything surrounding the passing of the bill, did not adhere to these "core values". Some might even be inclined to suggest there were numerous rollbacks of civil lilberties and inalienable rights. Did anyone have a real say here?

 

[The Mike]

Because people who have no idea what it's like to be in a class room make the education laws. Progress goals have to be met by students who could give a rats behind about if they pass or fail. People want teachers held accountable but then they go and tie the teachers hands with lack of funding or authority to enforce rules. We also have to try and educate every student instead of focusing on the ones that actually want to be there to learn. So we get students who don't care about anything school related, parents and lawmakers who have no idea what goes on in classrooms today and laws generally designed to drive most teachers insane. Nothing much can get done, but it's all the teachers fault so let's just fire them all.

Fantastic post

As a teacher in the trenches I will definitely agree that most people who make educational policy have either never been in the classroom or have been out of it for 10 years or more.

 

[Mesa]

Their news is fine. You shouldn't count their pudits like doomsday Beck or Hannity. As far as reporting, they do a fine job.

Some people take fox news out of context. They think Glen Beck and O'reilly and Hannity are the only thing on that channel. Granted, those are the programs that are played during the primetime 6:00-10:00 hours, but those are not news reporting, they are opinion shows, and should only be taken for that, someone's opinion. Every new network has them. MSNBC has that Ralph Machio. CNN has that one guy that is in love with Obama.

Unfortunately, I don't think some people are smart enough to see the difference between's someone's opinion and actual news reporting.

Fox reports on ALL news. CNN and MSNBC like to pick and chose what they report on. If it doesn't fit their left leaning agenda, don't expect much coerage on it at all.

 

[LaMelnik]

I grew up taking pride and honoring my Flag. I went to school and proudly said the pledge of allegiance, I went to war and proudly defended my country and my Flag.

Today, I am ashamed that anyone on my soil would even think to consider banning my Flag.

All I have to say is GET THE F OUT if you don't like it.

You have Freedom here and you are FREE to LEAVE!!!!!

 

[karamazov80]

Some might argue that the Patriot act, and everything surrounding the passing of the bill, did not adhere to these "core values". Some might even be inclined to suggest there were numerous rollbacks of civililiberties and inalienable rights.

That is one drawback to the fact that we live in a democracy. Sometimes public opinion in extraordinary times can lead to challenges to core values. But at the end of the day, the horrible potential for legitimate abuse by the Patriot Act was not realized due in large part to public pressures to keep it in check. Why? Because the real values of the country won't be abolished by a single law enacted during trying times. We've seen threats of this type in the past (institutionalized racism, detention of Japanese during WWII, the Red Scare, etc.) but we eventually move past it all.

Policy allows for changes on the margins, but the nature of a democratic system steeped in a respect for liberty won't allow for fundamental change. It hasn't so far. The various checks and balances of the political institutions here have made sure of that. If that ever changes, then the core values of the state may actually be threatened. But I don't think it will. Even these ridiculously partisan times will eventually pass.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Some might argue that the Patriot act, and everything surrounding the passing of the bill, did not adhere to these "core values". Some might even be inclined to suggest there were numerous rollbacks of civililiberties and inalienable rights.

Gotta tell ya ... the patriot act has been around for quite a while now, and I haven't really noticed any difference in my civil liberties or inalienable rights. Have you?

Paranoia abounds from both sides. Neither the Bush Administration nor the Obama Administration is a fascist cabal interested in enslaving the U.S. Both must weigh protecting the country with securing rights, and it is notable that even a left-leaning Administration has not seen fit to overturn Bush's national security initiatives ... the Patriot Act, Guantanimo, Iraq, Afghanistan ... even black-ops in Iran, Pakistan, etc.

When Obama and Bush both consent to these measures ... perhaps it isn't such a bad idea to listen to the guys who get the intelligence briefings.

SnakeDoc

 

[risingstar]

As a teacher in the trenches I will definitely agree that most people who make educational policy have either never been in the classroom or have been out of it for 10 years or more.

As someone who also worked in the school system for a while, the biggest issue I have had with the schoolboard brass was in the decision to lower the intellectual requirement for enrollment into the public school system. Over the years, I have seen a number of kids with clearly obvious behavioral problems and learning delays being thrust into the public school system. Within no time, most of these kids quickly become overwhelmed by the academic and social demands and either shut down entirelly or become incredibly disruptive.

The general idea here was to save money because special needs schools are awfully expensive. As a result of this decision, many of these kids will end up failing, dropping out, having their self-esteem squashed or being expelled. What options are then left for many of these kids to make a living? You guessed it. Crime or cheap labor.

It's a shame because I have worked in numerous special needs environments and I have seen many kids persevere and succeed with the right encouragement and tutelage.

 

[Kuzeh]

That poll is the equivalent of trolling in a forum...
serves no purpose except getting people riled up...

 

[Darth Cruel]

Personally, I am absolutely for banning the use of the National Ensign as it pertains to this poll.

This poll is about letting kids wear the National Ensign as clothing. And considering that by National Flag Etiquette standards, the wearing of the Flag as an article of everyday clothing is considered to be unacceptable, it is absolutely American to dis-allow it's being worn by kids in school. I am not sure why the schools that want to ban it don't remind people of that themselves.

I do not normally dog on people who wear it as an article of clothing because they usually mean it respectfully, no matter how misguided it is. But all this particular ban is actually accomplishing is to take a small step toward correcting a long-standing wrong.

Now, I am not in any way condoning the practice of showing another country's colors more respect than our own. So whatever added steps need to be taken to ensure that should be done as well.

Here is a primer for Flag Etiquette:

https://www.heritage-flag.com/heritage_etiquette.htm

 

[drbrad1975]

Because people who have no idea what it's like to be in a class room make the education laws. Progress goals have to be met by students who could give a rats behind about if they pass or fail. People want teachers held accountable but then they go and tie the teachers hands with lack of funding or authority to enforce rules. We also have to try and educate every student instead of focusing on the ones that actually want to be there to learn. So we get students who don't care about anything school related, parents and lawmakers who have no idea what goes on in classrooms today and laws generally designed to drive most teachers insane. Nothing much can get done, but it's all the teachers fault so let's just fire them all.

I whole heartedly agree with this post. It also has a economic component as well. I am not going to discuss it because that might cause a flame war.

 

[Kabukiman]

This poll is about letting kids wear the National Ensign as clothing.]

Where do you get that? The question, as stated in the poll, is this:

Should the American Flag Be Banned -- in America?

It's nothing more than fodder to generate a new sensationalist talking point for their crap shows.

 

[drbrad1975]

Some people take fox news out of context. They think Glen Beck and O'reilly and Hannity are the only thing on that channel. Granted, those are the programs that are played during the primetime 6:00-10:00 hours, but those are not news reporting, they are opinion shows, and should only be taken for that, someone's opinion. Every new network has them. MSNBC has that Ralph Machio. CNN has that one guy that is in love with Obama.

Unfortunately, I don't think some people are smart enough to see the difference between's someone's opinion and actual news reporting.

Fox reports on ALL news. CNN and MSNBC like to pick and chose what they report on. If it doesn't fit their left leaning agenda, don't expect much coerage on it at all.

I totally agree!!

 

[Memnoch]

I whole heartedly agree with this post. It also has a economic component as well. I am not going to discuss it because that might cause a flame war.

I have an idea where the long and the short of it goes and while I may be a lefty liberal - if your line of thought ends where I think, well that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But such talk may get this thread locked

 

[Darth Cruel]

Where do you get that? The question, as stated in the poll, is this:

I am sorry K, but I think this was a silly post. Didn't you read beyond the sensationalizing, attention-grabbing headline? The question is detailed right below it and it asks:

Should the display of an American flag be banned, even if a school administrator feels that display could lead to fights?

Obviously, this question gets its root from the Cinco de Mayo controversy at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, CA.

 

[Kabukiman]

I am sorry K, but I think this was a silly post. Didn't you read beyond the sensationalizing, attention-grabbing headline? The question is detailed right below it and it asks:

Should the display of an American flag be banned, even if a school administrator feels that display could lead to fights?

The point is that the question doesn't state what you say it is. The part you put in bold has nothing to do with wearing the flag or about the incident in California. They're just trying to, like you said, sensationalize it and go for the attention grab. That was my whole point.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Because people who have no idea what it's like to be in a class room make the education laws. Progress goals have to be met by students who could give a rats behind about if they pass or fail. People want teachers held accountable but then they go and tie the teachers hands with lack of funding or authority to enforce rules. We also have to try and educate every student instead of focusing on the ones that actually want to be there to learn. So we get students who don't care about anything school related, parents and lawmakers who have no idea what goes on in classrooms today and laws generally designed to drive most teachers insane. Nothing much can get done, but it's all the teachers fault so let's just fire them all.

You hit the nail right on the head with what I put in bold.

Excellent post and I completely agree.

As for the topic...

NO banning of our flag or our Pledge of Allegiance in our schools.

You don't like it...Move somewhere else.

 

[Kabukiman]

This is not a scientific poll.

No $#%&.

___

 

[Kuzeh]

No $#%&.

___

....

 

[Darth Cruel]

The point is that the question doesn't state what you say it is. The part you put in bold has nothing to do with wearing the flag or about the incident in California. They're just trying to, like you said, sensationalize it and go for the attention grab. That was my whole point.

You are right about the sensationalism. And you are mistaken about the question having nothing to do with the incident in Morgan Hills. The question is simple word play to make the banning of wearing the flag as clothing sound as loathsome as banning the Patriotic displaying of the Flag. But make no mistake, the poll encompasses, and, in fact, is a hidden reference to the idea of wearing flags on your cloths in schools as THAT aspect is the one of most concern for starting fights.

So, if you want to address the sensationalism of the poll, that is simple to see and it can not be denied. But if you want to give a meaningful, educated vote on the subject, you have to address it thoroughly.

 

[Kabukiman]

So, if you want to address the sensationalism of the poll, that is simple to see and it can not be denied. But if you want to give a meaningful, educated vote on the subject, you have to address it thoroughly.

Is there an echo in here? I think we're in agreement but it sounds like we're arguing.