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[franpincho]

I don't really understand why some people fail to see that Keaton is in fact the best Batman ever. If you don't see that you are a terrorist that likes goats.

 

[brucecamblzchin]

I don't really understand why some people fail to see that Keaton is in fact the best Batman ever. If you don't see that you are a terrorist that likes goats.

 

[JAWS]

I think Keaton did a good Job portraying a Character in a mixed up, Burton revisionist film that took a few too many liberties with a character that had been defined decades worth of writing. Keaton was a good a Batman....redefining...no not really.

Wow.. Someone who might share my feelings on the 89 Batman film.

Anyways... IMO the cast and excellent looking bat suit are what saved the film. Everything else is full of Average film making.

I don't know if I would say Keaton redefined the character... I would say the film did for the general public. Like some have said... Batman was still thought of as Adam West TV. It was in all the articles when the film was announced and getting close to release. Serious Comic films had not been made yet. Superman the Movie was good and took the character seriously but it had it's fair share of camp. It was also still a film for kids. Batman was the first comic film aimed more at an older teen/ adult crowed. And in that what.... The character and genre was redefined for the masses.

 

[DiFabio]

The character to the reading public had already been redefined three times at that point. Once by Denny O'neil and Neal Adams, and then twice by Frank Miller, a deconstructin and then reconstrtuction. And by the way, in the 80's most people new Batman by his comic visage. The Batman show had been dead for over 20 years at that point and DC had plastered Batman across everyrthing from cartoons to every shred of merchandise anyone could buy by 1985. So no, unless you lived under a rock, you knew Adam West wasn't Batman for a long time by then.

I didn't post "comic reading public" did I?

In the 80s, comics weren't as mainstream as they were today. They certainly weren't as big as movies, tv shows and cartoons. Yeah, us fans were familiar with the likes of Dark Knight Returns and the Killing Joke, but there were still millions of people that associated Batman with the TV show and Adam West. That was the general public's image of Batman. That's not taking away from TDKR or Killing Joke either, because those redefined Batman as well. Without those, there would be no '89 Batman.

The '89 Batman redefined the character for the next couple of decades too. It influenced and green lit the animated series, the look of Gotham in the comics evolved from Anton Furst's artwork. Ever later movies from Schumacher to Nolan were informed by the groundwork that the first Batman film laid. The shift in tone was drastic for a lot of people. Comic fans were used to a "Dark Knight" with Denny O' Neil and Miller's work already, but not everyone was aware of them. Like it or not, comics, graphic novels don't reach as many people as feature length films.



Pre '89,

Post '89,

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

I didn't post "comic reading public" did I?

In the 80s, comics weren't as mainstream as they were today. They certainly weren't as big as movies, tv shows and cartoons. Yeah, us fans were familiar with the likes of Dark Knight Returns and the Killing Joke, but there were still millions of people that associated Batman with the TV show and Adam West. That was the general public's image of Batman. That's not taking away from TDKR or Killing Joke either, because those redefined Batman as well. Without those, there would be no '89 Batman.

The '89 Batman redefined the character for the next couple of decades too. It influenced and green the animated series, the look of Gotham in the comics evolved from Anton Furst's artwork. Ever later movies from Schumacher to Nolan were informed by the groundwork that the first Batman film laid. The shift in tone was drastic for a lot of people. Comic fans were used to a "Dark Knight" with Denny O' Neil and Miller's work already, but not everyone was aware of them. Like it or not, comics, graphic novels don't reach as many people as feature length films.



Pre '89,


Post '89,

And as I stated, because if DCs widespread use of Batman in other avenues we aren't just talking about comic readers.

 

[sarakawa]

And as I stated, because if DCs widespread use of Batman in other avenues we aren't just talking about comic readers.

Is anyone even arguing that Keaton isn't the best movie rendition of batman? I like bale as bats quite a bit but he certainly isn't as iconic as Keaton. Kilmer and clooney? Please...I doubt affleck will be mind blowing either. Keaton is the best movie rendition of bats me thinks.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

Is anyone even arguing that Keaton isn't the best movie rendition of batman? I like bale as bats quite a bit but he certainly isn't as iconic as Keaton.

Nope, I'm arguing that Keaton's batman did not Redefine the Character.

 

[sarakawa]

Nope, I'm arguing that Keaton's batman did not Redefine the Character.

Yea I agree with that...especially not to those who followed comics.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

Yea I agree with that...especially not to those who followed comics.

Yes, and even outside of it. Even the Superfriends Batman(1973-1986) tried to portray Batman more as he was in the Comics of the 70's rather than the TV show of the 60's. And the Superfriends version of Batman was also known to make Appearances on Scooby-Doo. Not to mention the widespread marketing DC did from the 70s-80s with Comic inspired merchandise for kids. Like so

 

[DiFabio]

Batman looks like a smiling, happy bro, free of neurosis there.

And he was.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

Batman looks like a smiling, happy bro, free of neurosis there.

And he was.

He still wasn't idiotic camp from the 60's show, bro. Batman in the 80's was already ingrained in the Culture. Remember, This is from the 70's and early 80's, already people's perception of Batman had changed from what he was in the 60's to then. It's not as if the 89' movie did something to Batman that hadn't already been done and more than once.

Also remember A year before the Movie even came out Batman was in the national news for having a 1900 number to let the public choose if Robin would die or not. That story ran across the country.

 

[franpincho]

Yes, and even outside of it. Even the Superfriends Batman(1973-1986) tried to portray Batman more as he was in the Comics of the 70's rather than the TV show of the 60's. And the Superfriends version of Batman was also known to make Appearances on Scooby-Doo. Not to mention the widespread marketing DC did from the 70s-80s with Comic inspired merchandise for kids. Like so

Not very many people outside the USA knew about "TDKR" of most other comic versions of him. I do realize, and I mean no offense, that to some guys/gals the rest of the world means ****. It's all about what happens here, and what's offered here. There are people that have no,idea who Bob Kane is. But they know who Keaton Batman is.

When Batmania hit, it was a worldwide thing. Some of my friends, that unlike me had no access to the comics before the film, but knew who the character was, found an insane interest in Keaton Bats. And I can assure you there's thousands of cities around in with that same scenario.

If that's not redefining the character, I don't know what is.

 

[DiFabio]

He still wasn't idiotic camp from the 60's show, bro. Batman in the 80's was already ingrained in the Culture. Remember, This is from the 70's and early 80's, already people's perception of Batman had changed from what he was in the 60's to then. It's not as if the 89' movie did something to Batman that hadn't already been done and more than once.

Also remember A year before the Movie even came out Batman was in the national news for having a 1900 number to let the public choose if Robin would die or not. That story ran across the country.

And most people didn't have a clue that it was a different Robin. They all thought it was **** Grayson. It made news like the death of every comic character makes news today.

Also, I'm sorry, but Superfriends Batman was more along the lines of the tv show than any of the grittier tales of the 70s and 80s.





Especially any time he was voiced by West or teamed up with Scooby Doo and the gang. '89 Batman changed the perception of what Batman was at the time for the world at large. I can't believe we're all even arguing this. He was mean, hard nosed, and a vigilante. He wasn't a deputized officer of the law any more. He didn't have a Robin, he worked alone. He didn't preach about ethics and hygiene. The only time he'd smile was if it was a sadistic grin. He wore full body armor. He was cloaked in black. The general public hadn't seen anything like that before because there was no precedent for it outside of the comics. By definition, it redefined the character. If we want to play the comics card, then sure, TDKR no doubt changed the landscape. Still, no '89 Batman no body armored suit, no steel gauntlets and boots, no voice change, no grapple gun, no BTAS Batman, no Arkham games, no Nolan Batman, etc.


Gotham Alleys: The Impact of 'Batman'

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

Not very many people outside the USA knew about "TDKR" of most other comic versions of him. I do realize, and I mean no offense, that to some guys/gals the rest of the world means ****. It's all about what happens here, and what's offered here. There are people that have no,idea who Bob Kane is. But they know who Keaton Batman is.

When Batmania hit, it was a worldwide thing. Some of my friends, that unlike me had no access to the comics before the film, but knew who the character was, found an insane interest in Keaton Bats. And I can assure you there's thousands of cities around in with that same scenario.

If that's not redefining the character, I don't know what is.

Redefining means that it would have actually had to do something that hadn't been done that changed the character irrevocably. Basically what you're telling me is you had a complete ignorance to the character because you were outside the US. While that's not your fault, it still doesn't mean that the Burton Film did anything that hadn't already been thought of years and even Decades before. So again, no, the film did not redefine anything. At most I'll give you a garnered him a more World Wide Audience.

 

[DiFabio]

Keaton is gonna get dat Oscar.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Eddie Redmayne is going to win.

Dat Stephen Hawking bait.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

And most people didn't have a clue that it was a different Robin. They all thought it was **** Grayson. It made news like the death of every comic character makes news today.

Also, I'm sorry, but Superfriends Batman was more along the lines of the tv show than any of the grittier tales of the 70s and 80s.





Especially any time he was voiced by West or teamed up with Scooby Doo and the gang. '89 Batman changed the perception of what Batman was at the time for the world at large. I can't believe we're all even arguing this. He was mean, hard nosed, and a vigilante. He wasn't a deputized officer of the law any more. He didn't have a Robin, he worked alone. He didn't preach about ethics and hygiene. The only time he'd smile was if it was a sadistic grin. He wore full body armor. He was cloaked in black. The general public hadn't seen anything like that before because there was no precedent for it outside of the comics. By definition, it redefined the character. If we want to play the comics card, then sure, TDKR no doubt changed the landscape. Still, no '89 Batman no body armored suit, no steel gauntlets and boots, no voice change, no grapple gun, no BTAS Batman, no Arkham games, no Nolan Batman, etc.


Gotham Alleys: The Impact of 'Batman'

You can quote some blog all you want, it's an op-ed and carries as much weight. I'll give you that the Keaton movie gave a larger audience to comics but you Can not tell me the BTAS has anything to do with the Keaton films outside of the inspired music and the car. The reason the BTAS was so well accepted is because it was the FIRST absolutely true to the comics media venture anyone had done. As a matter of fact BTAS is more widely accepted as THE version of Batman in other media than any of the live action films. Now you can say that Without the Keaton film the audience for BTAS might not have been there, but that's where it stops because without BTAS there is no Arkham games, no Nolan Films, no nothing.

 

[DiFabio]

'89 Batman influence on BTAS,

Batmobile inspired by the film version (look and gadgetry). The Batwing. Shirley Walker/Danny Elfman music. Batman voice change. Batman's grapple gun. The Joker is Jack Napier, he used to be a mobster. Catwoman is a blonde. Penguin is deformed and has a Penguin vehicle and jacks Batman's Batmobile. The art/dark deco of the show for the city. The blend of the 1930s/40s aesthetic mixed with the modern 90s world. No Batman 1989, no BTAS. The film influenced the show, even the creators say as much. Bruce Timm even originally envisioned a darker, brooding loner Batman that was more akin to Keaton than the show's perceived demographic would allow.

You know what though? BTAS also has other influences. Episodes like Sideshow, The Demon's Quest and Appointment in Crime Alley were influenced off of the O' Neil/70s run. No doubt about that. Some influences weren't even comic or Batman related, but movie related from the likes of Blade Runner to the Terminator. BTAS pays homage to every thing from Walt Disney to the 60s show. Some episodes feel like a Burton Batman film, others feel like a comic, some, like "I've got Batman in my basement" are a cringe worthy child romp. The great thing about BTAS is that it was a melting pot of ideas, a melting pot of different "Batmen". That's one of the reasons it was so successful.

It also made it's own unique stamp with Mr. Freeze and Two-Face and Harley Quinn.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

'89 Batman influence on BTAS,

Batmobile inspired by the film version (look and gadgetry). The Batwing. Shirley Walker/Danny Elfman music. Batman voice change. Batman's grapple gun. The Joker is Jack Napier, he used to be a mobster. Catwoman is a blonde. Penguin is deformed and has a Penguin vehicle and jacks Batman's Batmobile. The art/dark deco of the show for the city. The blend of the 1930s/40s aesthetic mixed with the modern 90s world. No Batman 1989, no BTAS. The film influenced the show, even the creators say as much. Bruce Timm even originally envisioned a darker, brooding loner Batman that was more akin to Keaton than the show's perceived demographic would allow.

You know what though? BTAS also has other influences. Episodes like Sideshow, The Demon's Quest and Appointment in Crime Alley were influenced off of the O' Neil/70s run. No doubt about that. Some influences weren't even comic or Batman related, but movie related from the likes of Blade Runner to the Terminator. BTAS pays homage to every thing from Walt Disney to the 60s show. Some episodes feel like a Burton Batman film, others feel like a comic, some, like "I've got Batman in my basement" are a cringe worthy child romp. The great thing about BTAS is that it was a melting pot of ideas, a melting pot of different "Batmen". That's one of the reasons it was so successful.

It also made it's own unique stamp with Mr. Freeze and Two-Face and Harley Quinn.

Influenced, yes of course, 89' Batman was major hit after all. I'll give you the car, the music and Grapple gun, those are obvious. The Bat plane/wing has been around for decades, it's design is similar but way more streamlined than the 89' version. the Joker has MANY alias in BTAS, Jack Napier is only one the others are: Jack White, Joe Kerr and Dr. Rekoj, he uses them as he sees fit and it is never said which is his real name, not even in Mask of the Phantasm. Gotham city was also reviatlzed as a Darker, more gothic place during the O'neil/Adams run, I'll grant you the 40's aesthetic but it's not like Gotham hadn't been portrayed as a darker city before. The Penguin has flipper hands, other than that he very much resembles the Penguin of the comics at the time as for Selina Kyle, she's obviously a mixture of the many incarnations of Catwoman, the Batman Returns version being only one.

You can sit here and pretend the 89' movie is this massive rework of Batman, but the truth is it did not redefine him, as matter of fact many things in the 89' film were taken from comics at the time, but of course Burton had to put his spin on things, which is what prevents it from being what it really could have been.

 

[brucecamblzchin]

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Eddie Redmayne is going to win.

Dat Stephen Hawking bait.

****en academy, gay dudes and disabled dudes get Oscars all the time.

 

[DiFabio]

Good Josh, you're coming around more and more.

The Bat plane/wing has been around for decades, it's design is similar but way more streamlined than the 89' version.

It had to be, it was animation for a cartoon.

In Feat of Clay, it had that little claw/cutter thing that Batman used in the film to rid the city of the smylex balloons. Some of the shots are taken directly from the film.

the Joker has MANY alias in BTAS, Jack Napier is only one the others are: Jack White, Joe Kerr and Dr. Rekoj, he uses them as he sees fit and it is never said which is his real name, not even in Mask of the Phantasm. Gotham city was also reviatlzed as a Darker, more gothic place during the O'neil/Adams run, I'll grant you the 40's aesthetic but it's not like Gotham hadn't been portrayed as a darker city before. The Penguin has flipper hands, other than that he very much resembles the Penguin of the comics at the time as for Selina Kyle, she's obviously a mixture of the many incarnations of Catwoman, the Batman Returns version being only one.

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His name was Jack Napier, he was a mob hitman (instead of killing Bruce's parents, he whacked Andrea's dad). He had a run in with Batman and he blamed him for falling into the vat of chemicals.

You can sit here and pretend the 89' movie is this massive rework of Batman, but the truth is it did not redefine him, as matter of fact many things in the 89' film were taken from comics at the time, but of course Burton had to put his spin on things, which is what prevents it from being what it really could have been.

There is no one, true Batman. He's constantly changing with the times. They build and build from story to story, medium to medium. Originally he killed villains, fought mad doctors, vampires and werewolves, all while driving a red car. Then he went on crazy adventures with Robin in outer space fighting imps and aliens. Then the 60s show happened and was ingrained in popular culture. Then comic sales were plummeting and they O' Neil came in. Then Miller, then Burton, etc. etc. Batman redefined the character in the late 80s/90s, just like the TV show had done in the 60s and the Nolan films had done in 2005-2012.