Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[karamazov80]

I was thinking primarily of Two-Face, and maybe Red Hood with the "how many good people stayed good" comment. A former Robin as Joker is a pretty wacky and odd idea (though I know there is precedent with Batman Beyond), but. . .it would explain why Bats wouldn't kill him.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I must say, one thing that does bug me about the movie are the flashbacks to earlier scenes, particularly the Wayne murder during the "Martha" revelation. I feel that robbed the scene of some of its emotional impact. We don't need to see those shots again, and I think Zack could trust the audience a little more. He's a fan of flashbacks, though. Personally, I'm not. Oh well. It is what it is. But if I had a chance at editing the movie that's the first thing I would do... remove the in-movie flashbacks.

I actually liked that flashback

 

[abake]

I don't know, there are a bunch meta humans and this Batman has no problem killing thugs, so how is The Joker still alive? It just seems that after watching Batman go at it with Sups or Doomsday...maybe even Darkseid. The Joker is just some dude with bad tattoos Maybe if they make a smaller solo Batman film he can still be effective as a villain.

I think there's a big difference between people getting killed in a firefight and murdering somebody.
I never got the feeling that Batman was actively trying to kill people, but that he responded with overwhelming force to the thugs he was against.

I wrote about this a couple of pages back, so bear with me.

When Batman is in close quarters with Luthor's goons, he goes out of his way to neuter their weapons first and then fight them hand to hand. He doesn't target the men with the explosives, which he would do if all this talk of "Batman is a killer" was true. Even after he gets stabbed, he doesn't kill the guy who stabbed him, but incapacitates him by stabbing him in the shoulder.

So, there is no reason to wonder why the Joker is still alive.

Batman is not a murderer.
He only goes over the top with Superman because he can see no way of containing him. That's why he actually does want to kill him.

 

[GasparZizou]

I agree with Irish, it would've been much more aesthetic.

 

[WWEJedi]

I actually liked that flashback

Same.

 

[spidermonkey]

Yup, I heard he WAS originally gonna be the Riddler, but he rejected the part so they offered him Luthor and removed the Riddler from the story.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info man.

 

[IrishJedi]

I thought they should have removed the Wayne murders from the beginning and kept the revelation flashback scene in. I think it would have played out better.

Hmm. It could have. But I do feel like that moment (when Bruce realizes that Superman also has a mother named "Martha") could have breathed a little more. The whole point there is that he never even viewed Superman as anything other than an alien that could go rogue and kill everyone at any time. He doesn't view him as a man (which he says several times during the fight, actually). But when he finds out that he has an Earth mother and her name is also Martha everything changes instantly. And I actually think that makes sense. But I'm not sure most people get that from playing it out via the flashback. Or maybe they do. I hope so, because it's actually a critical moment in the movie.

Your idea is pretty good, though. Definitely better than showing it twice, imho. Maybe I just don't like that shot of the goofy-looking kid falling down.

 

[karamazov80]

So, there is no reason to wonder why the Joker is still alive.

Batman is not a murderer.
He only goes over the top with Superman because he can see no way of containing him. That's why he actually does want to kill him.

But if Joker is anything like the versions we've seen before, he constantly gets out of Arkham/prison and ends up killing droves and droves of people. If Batman is pre-emptively taking out significant threats to the lives of innocents, because he has no other real means of ensuring this, and if we assume that Batman is a frequent killer, then killing Joker makes just about as much sense as killing Superman. Unless, of course, Joker is someone he really cares about deep down.

 

[Ropen]

Despite all the comic book movies that come up, DC although barely late, catching up, will do good. I was just having a casual conversation with a waitress and asked me about the movie since I told her I was semi full from popcorn.

Bvs got brought up, she told me ten different guys who saw the movie already recommend the movie to her and liked it, she then asked me what movies she should watch to know what's going on, I told her Man of Steel. Her jaw dropped, she bluntly told me "You mean I don't have to match a lot of movies to know what's going on?" And I said yes. "That's awesome because when I saw avengers 2, I had no idea what was going on, I had to watch the others to understand anything (which she mentioned watched them out of order) and was like I will do that this weekend.

Despite the hardcore critics and reviews and love/hate fans and comic book fans with a museums worth of book and 1TB of data, this movie boils down to the casual movie goer and that's all that matters.


Sent from Le iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[WWEJedi]

Hmm. It could have. But I do feel like that moment (when Bruce realizes that Superman also has a mother named "Martha") could have breathed a little more. The whole point there is that he never even viewed Superman as anything other than an alien that could go rogue and kill everyone at any time. He doesn't view him as a man (which he says several times during the fight, actually). But when he finds out that he has an Earth mother and her name is also Martha everything changes instantly. And I actually think that makes sense. But I'm not sure most people get that from playing it out via the flashback.

Your idea is pretty good, though. Definitely better than showing it twice, imho.

That is what I thought once Martha was brought up, it instantly clicked, I just really liked the flashback placement there

Both our ideas work better than the original though

Edit: Yeah, actually, remove Bruce falling down the well there and then it is perfect

 

[GasparZizou]

Hmm. It could have. But I do feel like that moment (when Bruce realizes that Superman also has a mother named "Martha") could have breathed a little more. The whole point there is that he never even viewed Superman as anything other than an alien that could go rogue and kill everyone at any time. He doesn't view him as a man (which he says several times during the fight, actually). But when he finds out that he has an Earth mother and her name is also Martha everything changes instantly. And I actually think that makes sense. But I'm not sure most people get that from playing it out via the flashback. Or maybe they do. I hope so, because it's actually a critical moment in the movie.

Your idea is pretty good, though. Definitely better than showing it twice, imho.

It was genius. Not only that, Bruce has been so scarred and traumatized by the death of his parents to the brink of psychosis his entire life, Martha was an instant PTSD trigger.

 

[IrishJedi]

Admit it, who thought "WTF? Come on!" when little Bruce started floating up into the air in the swarm of bats (before it being revealed it was just a dream)? I know I did the first time.

 

[karamazov80]

Hmm. It could have. But I do feel like that moment (when Bruce realizes that Superman also has a mother named "Martha") could have breathed a little more. The whole point there is that he never even viewed Superman as anything other than an alien that could go rogue and kill everyone at any time. He doesn't view him as a man (which he says several times during the fight, actually). But when he finds out that he has an Earth mother and her name is also Martha everything changes instantly. And I actually think that makes sense. But I'm not sure most people get that from playing it out via the flashback. Or maybe they do. I hope so, because it's actually a critical moment in the movie.

Your idea is pretty good, though. Definitely better than showing it twice, imho. Maybe I just don't like that shot of the goofy-looking kid falling down.

The Martha connection and flashback do detract from that objective IMO. If instead, Superman just said, "help my mom. . ." or something, and if you see Batman more explicitly making that connection, humanizing Supes, then I think it would have been more effective for me personally. Though again, going from about to kill the guy, and in fact, having killed lots of others to ensure that he could kill this guy, to not only letting him go, but actually helping him, is still a bit much.

 

[IrishJedi]

It was genius. Not only that, Bruce has been so scarred and traumatized by the death of his parents to the brink of psychosis his entire life, Martha was an instant PTSD trigger.

Yeah, it's such an elegant no-brainer (that the Marthas would be what would form an instant bond between Batman and Superman) that I'm astonished that it was never done in the comics.

 

[GasparZizou]

Admit it, who thought "WTF? Come on!" when little Bruce started floating up into the air in the swarm of bats (before it being revealed it was just a dream)? I know I did the first time.

I knew it was a dream when that happened.

 

[karamazov80]

Admit it, who thought "WTF? Come on!" when little Bruce started floating up into the air in the swarm of bats (before it being revealed it was just a dream)? I know I did the first time.

Another reason to believe that the other scenes were dreams, right? But yeah, WTF? sums up my thoughts pretty well there

 

[WWEJedi]

Admit it, who thought "WTF? Come on!" when little Bruce started floating up into the air in the swarm of bats (before it being revealed it was just a dream)? I know I did the first time.

Me. That was my literal reaction... "WTF" Then Affleck says it was a dream and all was good

 

[abake]

But if Joker is anything like the versions we've seen before, he constantly gets out of Arkham/prison and ends up killing droves and droves of people. If Batman is pre-emptively taking out significant threats to the lives of innocents, because he has no other real means of ensuring this, and if we assume that Batman is a frequent killer, then killing Joker makes just about as much sense as killing Superman. Unless, of course, Joker is someone he really cares about deep down.

Well, the way I understood it is that he only wants to preemptively kill Superman because he's basically and extinction level event. Joker isn't.
Besides, Alfred makes the point that Batman has changed and become more brutal, doesn't he?
So I'm pretty sure that last time Batman kicked the Joker's butt into the asylum, he wasn't that bitter and cynical.

 

[GasparZizou]

The Martha connection and flashback do detract from that objective IMO. If instead, Superman just said, "help my mom. . ." or something, and if you see Batman more explicitly making that connection, humanizing Supes, then I think it would have been more effective for me personally. Though again, going from about to kill the guy, and in fact, having killed lots of others to ensure that he could kill this guy, to not only letting him go, but actually helping him, is still a bit much.

He couldn't say "help my mom" because then he would've revealed his identity to Batman, the fact that Lois had to say "it's his mother's name" makes it more elegant imo, and showed that he not only has a mom, he has friends and loved ones too, making him completely human, plus it would remove the element of coincidence or "providence" that both moms are named Martha.

And the fact that he helps him because he's not going to let "no Martha die tonight" is not a stretch at all imo, the complete opposite.

Yeah, it's such an elegant no-brainer (that the Marthas would be what would form an instant bond between Batman and Superman) that I'm astonished that it was never done in the comics.

Time will tell, if it has been done, someone will surely find it, but it's undoubtedly a stroke of genius imo.

 

[JAWS]

I thought even Batman's eluding Doomsday's eye rays was unbelievable!

Yeah but it looked cool and I thought they pulled it off.. Like I said.. Reality = Batman dead... Movies and Comics = Nobody can beat Batman

The Flash. And Batman's dreams weren't dreams nor was Flash's warning. Someone is projecting messages & glimpses from the future onto Batman as dreams (which has been done before via tachyon particles in the comics) and Flash is telling Batman that 1) Lois Lane is the key, 2) that he was right about the danger Supes poses & 3) that he must find the other members of the JLA.

This all points to the INJUSTICE storyline being the plot for JLA. In INJUSTICE Joker kills Lois & Supes goes crazy as a result - blaming Batman for not having dealt with Joker in the past. Supes then becomes a warlord for Darkseid (as seen in the Knightmare sequence).*

Thanks.. I could not understand all the things he was saying... So you helped clear a lot up.