Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Ropen]

Just shows how American critics have zero taste in movies. It's a trend and almost seems like nothing out recently is good for anyone.


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[GasparZizou]

Impressive that no matter how hard attempts are made to discredit character motivations the movie is still able to provide enough material to formulate a proper defense against most of those attempts.

That tells me that under the surface this imperfect movie has potential for a narrative course correction.

The extended is either going to sink this movie or bring it from a 29% RT to a 90% RT as critics rush to bestow it with their seal of approval.

I love the critics who destroyed The Thing in 1982 coming around 20 years later to proclaim it a masterpiece.

I was ready to point my Marvel finger at arrogant WB/DC to ask them how their adult serious drama is working out for them, but not just yet, right now i'm enjoying BvS theatrical!

I think even if you dislike some creative decisions, the structure itself is still pretty damn solid imo, I can't wait for the ultimate cut.

RT includes scores for Director cuts?

 

[jye4ever]

I think even if you dislike some creative decisions, the structure itself is still pretty damn solid imo, I can't wait for the ultimate cut.

RT includes scores for Director cuts?

Nah, i'm just being a sarcastic ass.

 

[crows]

Impressive that no matter how hard attempts are made to discredit character motivations the movie is still able to provide enough material to formulate a proper defense against most of those attempts.

That tells me that under the surface this imperfect movie has potential for a narrative course correction.

The extended is either going to sink this movie or bring it from a 29% RT to a 90% RT as critics rush to bestow it with their seal of approval.

I love the critics who destroyed The Thing in 1982 coming around 20 years later to proclaim it a masterpiece.

I was ready to point my Marvel finger at arrogant WB/DC to ask them how their adult serious drama is working out for them, but not just yet, right now i'm enjoying BvS theatrical!

yeah there are answers, answers to very convoluted plot points. answers to confusing questions, people having to find answers to confusing character choices

comparing this to the thing is an insult. thats absurd.


look at this for example that i found (I would love you and gaspar answer this
answers please :


go ahead, find the answers to this, i know you can, but a movie should not make people this confused

Below are ten questions the film left me asking that outline the shape of some of the storytelling failure on display. There are major spoilers ahead. Some of these questions may be answerable, and not just in an apologetic way (ie, any explanation that begins "Maybe" is an apologia drawing from outside the text to fill gaps in the text), but I suspect most are not. At any rate, consider the comment thread below your spoiler-heavy post-release discussion zone.

1) Why didn’t Superman clean up the World Engine?

One of the most surprising things we learn in Batman v Superman is that the Indian Ocean World Engine is… just sitting in the Indian Ocean. 18 months after destroying, it’s just sitting there. It’s hard to imagine that a giant alien spaceship, powered by god-knows-what that is leaking into the water, is good for the local ecosystem. And it’s hard to imagine that Superman believes leaving the alien tech to be scavenged by just anybody is a very good idea. So why doesn’t he clean it up? Hell, if he had cleaned it up the whole movie might not happen, since the Kryptonite would never have been an issue.

2) Why is Lex Luthor equipping his death squads with ‘experimental bullets’?

Lex has an overly complex and largely nonsensical plan to lure Superman into action in Africa, and he would have gotten away with it, too… if it wasn’t for the experimental bullets with which he equipped his mercenaries. What? Why would he do that? Even setting aside the fact that he basically left behind bullets that he all but personally signed, why go to the expense? These guys were never supposed to be in contact with Superman anyway, as if the bullets would even have stopped him. And don’t get me started on the fact that Jimmy Olsen, war atrocity victim, has a giant beeping tracking device in his camera like this was a 1960s spy caper.

3) Why does anyone think Superman shot a whole bunch of people in Africa?

Lex’s plan involves creating an international incident by having Superman show up in this African village. For one thing, why would he expect that to even work? But let’s assume he pulls enough strings to make it happen - he bribes UN officials, he complains to senators, he hires ‘crisis actors’ to give testimony - why the hell would anyone think Superman shot all these guys? They’re all clearly shot dead. Superman, while no stranger to cold-blooded murder, definitely doesn’t need to use a gun to get the job done. No one even questions this? Like, it’s quite clear Superman had nothing to do with shooting a whole bunch of people.

4) Why does Lex Luthor blow up the Senate hearing and kill his assistant?

At least I think Mercy Graves is killed in the explosion. It’s hard to be sure, but she seems to disappear out of the film after that sequence.

At any rate, the important question is “What does Lex hope to gain by blowing the place up?” He already has the kryptonite in the country, so he doesn’t need to eliminate Senator Jar of Piss immediately or in a particularly grand manner. And everybody knows it was a suicide bombing as soon as it happens - it isn’t like people believe Superman went berserk in the Senate hearing. I’m not even sure why the bombing would turn public sentiment THAT starkly against Superman, which I guess is what Lex was trying to do? I’m not entirely sure what the point of THAT would be, either.

5) Why does Superman stop Batman in the middle of clearly chasing bad guys and let the bad guys get away?

As Batman is about to get the kryptonite from Lex’s goons Superman shows up, totals the Batmobile, threatens Batman and then flies away. Is Superman stupid? Did he not notice the running gun battle raging around him? Even if he thinks Batman is a menace he must understand the other dudes are also menaces, as they are firing automatic weapons. And yet Superman is way more concerned with chastising Batman. Again, the whole movie could have been wrapped up faster if Superman had stopped Lex’s goons and taken the kryptonite himself and thrown it into the sun or something.

6) Why is the Knightmare in this movie at all?

I know that BvS is setting up future films in the DC movieverse, but this sequence is so egregiously out of place and has so little bearing on the events of the film that its inclusion is nonsensical and pointless. It also makes no sense - Flash travels back in time to warn Batman in a dream? Huh?

Flash is hard to hear in this sequence, but he warns Batman that he was right all along, and that if Lois dies Superman goes bad. But that doesn’t come into play in the film ever; Batman never is concerned about Lois’ safety - he doesn’t even know she’s ever in danger. Batman never brings the incident up again. It has no impact on the story at all. If you removed it from the film nothing would change beyond the running time.

7) Why does Superman fight Batman if he doesn’t want to fight Batman?

Superman goes to Gotham to get Batman to help him rescue Martha. I’m not entirely sure what he thinks Batman can do that he, a man with powers of flight, super speed, X-ray vision and super-hearing can’t, but that’s the plan. The problem is that Batman isn’t there to talk - he’s there to fight.

So why does Superman fight him? Why does he keep advancing towards him after he sets off the first trap? Why does he flick him across the lot where they meet? Why throw Batman? Superman could just hold Batman down if he needed to and speak to him. Why is Superman such an *beep*

Addendum: why does Clark Kent follow Bruce Wayne downstairs at the Luthor fundraiser if he has X-ray vision and could watch him from anywhere in the house?

8) Why does Lois Lane go back for the spear?

I mean, I know why they need the spear, but how does Lois know that? What tells her that Doomsday is Kryptonian? How does she possibly know that the weapon will now be needed?

Addendum: why does Batman lead Doomsday to Gotham? Why not just get the spear and come back to the uninhabited Stryker’s Island, where Doomsday can shoot off his undefined energy powers to his heart’s content? It's especially weird that Batman draws Doomsday to Gotham when his entire story begins with being angry at Superman fighting a massive battle among civilians.

9) Why does Lex Luthor create Doomsday, and why does he put his blood in the Matrix?

Lex Luthor has little to no motivation beyond the fact that Lex Luthor always hates Superman in all media. I can, grudgingly, accept that. What I can’t wrap my head around is why this Lex Luthor would make an unstoppable killing machine and unleash it on the world. What’s his endgame in this scenario? What does tech billionaire Lex Luthor hope to gain from destroying Metropolis and who knows what else?

Furthermore - why does he put his blood in the Matrix with Zod’s body? Humans, last I checked, didn’t have any special powers that you might want to add to a Kryptonian’s already impressive array of abilities. Is this just Luthor homaging the time the members of the band KISS put their blood into the ink of their Marvel comic book?

10) Why didn’t Wonder Woman kill Doomsday?

In a moment of heroic self-sacrifice Superman picks up the spear (of destiny. Yay, another *beep* Christ allusion for a character who isn’t Christlike) and flies it right into the heart of Doomsday. Weakened, Superman is impaled on Doomsday’s spike, and he pulls himself further up the spike in order to drive the spear into the beast’s heart. Both die.

But they didn’t have to, at least not as presented in the film. Wonder Woman could have done it, or at least given it a shot. We saw that she could take a full blast from Doomsday and get up smiling, so why not let the person who will not be automatically weakened by proximity to the weapon give it a try? Instead she stands around watching, her lasso fairly ineffectual on Doomsday who manages to still impale Superman.

In the original Death of Superman story all of the other heroes were defeated by Doomsday, leaving Superman and the behemoth alone to go toe-to-toe in an epic slugfest where they basically beat each other to death. Superman had no other option but to take it all the way - there was no one left to help him. In BvS an unwounded Wonder Woman stands to the side gawking as Superman pointlessly gives up his life.

 

[jye4ever]

I thought comparing it with The Thing was appropriate considering both movies are about Men v Alien.

 

[kryptonianmutie]

Quick question for people who liked the movie: Did you see it in Imax?

 

[GasparZizou]

yeah there are answers, answers to very convoluted plot points. answers to confusing questions, people having to find answers to confusing character choices

It's not convoluted at all, I answered to all your questions with simple answers. At this point I'm thinking you just wwant to sink this movie for the sake of it, and not even with your own questions, when it has already endured more scrutiny than most CBMs can possibly take, and that in itself should tell you how well made it actually is.

go ahead, find the answers to this, i know you can, but a movie should not make people this confused

I can, I read them and I instantly can answer those questions, your questions were better tbh, those are just dumb ADD questions. Like 3) Why does anyone think Superman shot a whole bunch of people in Africa? how dumb do you need to be to think the incident happened because people think Superman SHOT people... Tell me you do see how dumb those questions are.

 

[GasparZizou]

Quick question for people who liked the movie: Did you see it in Imax?

Nope, they only have Imax 3D around here Does it look so much better?

 

[crows]

I thought comparing it with The Thing was appropriate considering both movies are about Men v Alien.

the thing was not setting up for 5 other sequels while having other 5 plots going on in its own movie while having cameos of other people and having two big fights at the end lol

 

[Khev]

Yet again, we agree!

Hell yeah.

Well, that and I would have cut out a couple of the flashbacks and move one or two scenes around slightly.

On the one hand I actually liked the content of the flashbacks but I knew they eliminated any chance of my 6 year old son being able to follow the movie for quite some time. I was his age when I saw ESB in the theater and I didn't know what the **** was going on when Luke faced Vader in the cave, but that was just one moment and they immediately cut to "real" Vader on the Executor when it was done. Bruce's dreams within dreams? Yeah, forget it.

However as someone who's able to follow such things I was pretty on board with them.

One of the big problems I had with the trailer was Clark's seeming continued smugness with how quickly he told Bruce "not everyone shares your opinion" in response to the claim that he could burn everything. The trailer made me think that Clark should have paused and digested that with a bit of empathy before responding and the finished film gave him that extra beat. In fact I didn't really find myself disliking Clark at all in this movie. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that Zack and Terrio "nailed" his character but I did come away thinking that his portrayal was an admirable effort.

Bruce/Batman and Wonder Woman though, I thought they were pretty much perfect. I could probably write paragraphs about how much I loved the two of them (especially Bruce!) but I'll save that for another time. I did enjoy how WW seemed to enjoy the adrenaline rush she got from actually taking blows in combat.

I will say this about Bats though because I'm sure people are weighing in on the fact that he kills. I just don't think you can really sell the fact that he wants to off Superman if he's never actually taken a life before. Pretty simple. I never read Miller's TDKR, and I'm guessing that the Batman who fought Superman there wasn't a killer, but on film I think it plays better if that's something we already know that Batman is capable of, it really gave extra gravitas to the scene where he's holding the spear above Superman's chest.

I didn't mind Luthor, I thought he played much better in the film than in the trailers, though I was the only one in the theater who laughed at a couple of his antics (like the stuffing of the jolly rancher in the guy's mouth, so random, lol.) And "Speech speech, bla bla bla, open bar, the end" really cracked me up as I'm been to enough corporate conventions and seminars to know that whenever there's a gathering and a bar, no one really does give a **** about what any big wig is saying on stage.

Other little things:

1. I thought the prologue with the destruction of Metropolis was very well done and actually more intense than the actual finale of MOS.

2. I liked the synthesized score that played during the batmobile chase, I felt like I was back in Terminator 84.

3. Beautiful photography, much better use of the alternating aspect ratio than the irritating back and forth (sometimes from shot to shot!) that Nolan gave us in TDK and especially TDKR.

4. I was really starting to get pissed at what I saw as Lois' shoehorning into the final battle (I guess she still kind of was) but I feel like we did get adequate payoff with her last moment with Clark.

5. Superman and Doomsday's deaths did feel a little "Thorin and Azog" to me. I liked it, but I did literally think back to the end of BOTFA when it happened.

6. Kind of funny that Doomsday's creation is reminiscent of Nuclear Man in Superman IV, Lex combining his DNA with a Kryptonian (I'm assuming that is not how Doomsday was created in the comics.)

7. I did roll my eyes a bit at the gratuitous "good thing this fight is after business hours so that half the city is vacant!" type lines which were so obviously inserted due to complaints against the first film. I don't think they needed that, especially since we saw Superman doing everything he could to not only get Doomsday out of the city, but out of the Earth's atmosphere as well.

Above all I just felt that with regard to superhero films that we've been watching the kids play (Marvel) and finally the big boys showed up. And I'm saying that as a Marvel guy. There's just such a damn mystique with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman that Marvel's greatest heavy hitters (save Captain America) just can't touch. That isn't translating to "BvS was better than all Marvel films," no, I'm just saying there's an elevated mystique with DC's big guns that is almost palpable.

I absolutely loved seeing the "Trinity" in action and almost don't want a movie bogged down with Aquaman and Cyborg just because I like the big three so much. But I am SO glad that Snyder will remain at the helm because I absolutely want to see this onscreen world continue into JL 1 and 2.

 

[jye4ever]

the thing was not setting up for 5 other sequels while having other 5 plots going on in its own movie while having cameos of other people and having two big fights at the end lol

Had The Thing not bombed you know very well there would've been The Thing 2!

 

[Khev]

Quick question for people who liked the movie: Did you see it in Imax?

I just did. It was 2D and looked fantastic. Thundering sound was incredible as well. It was also great to see Netflix Daredevil preview in IMAX as well as the home release of TFA.

 

[WWEJedi]

the other thing I didnt like that made no sense.
Why didn't Luthor just let Batman have the Kryptonite? why not just deliver it to him? of when Lex realized batman was after it why not just tell the guys to let him have it?
why go through the trouble of telling his men to shoot rockets at batman when Lex NEEDED Batman alive to fight superman? what if one of those rockets did hit batman and he got hurt?
You could say that because Lex needed it, but then if Batman didn't steal it, how was Batman supposed to kill Superman? was Lex going to give it to Batman anyways? and if he was then why hide it. why not just contact Batman and tell him he wants to work with him or something?

And like I said before, why was Lex creating Doomsday before knowing if Batman won? what if he DID win? then you would have created a Doomsday for no reason at all.
Why was Lex basically worshiping Zod in the pod? why was he talking to the zod corpse like if he respected and cared for Zod? doesn't he hate powerful aliens?
and why was he happy to see Doomsday? Doomsday is just another powerful alien. so Lex hates SUperman but loves zod and then loves Doosmday? wtf.... how was he supposed to stop doomdsay after he killed superman? Lex didn't have any weapons.

answers please

It really isn't that hard to understand.....

 

[crows]

It's not convoluted at all, I answered to all your questions with simple answers. At this point I'm thinking you just wwant to sink this movie for the sake of it, and not even with your own questions, when it has already endured more scrutiny than most CBMs can possibly take, and that in itself should tell you how well made it actually is.



I can, I read them and I instantly can answer those questions, your questions were better tbh, those are just dumb ADD questions. Like 3) Why does anyone think Superman shot a whole bunch of people in Africa? how dumb do you need to be to think the incident happened because people think Superman SHOT people... Tell me you do see how dumb those questions are.

if it was a couple of people i would be like, yeah, they are just stupid morons.
fair enough.

but this is like literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that got this confused. its not just a couple of critics. not a couple of trolls that didnt get it...

you might like the movie but you could at least understand how they made things over complicated.. because they did.
love the movie all you want and defend it, but saying it doesnt hae confusing motives is just wrong. is wrong. you can defend a movie to a point.
to a point, but you guys right now are doing what the defenders of the phantom menace did, deny any fault. thats just blindly defending it as a fanboy

 

[WWEJedi]

It's not convoluted at all, I answered to all your questions with simple answers. At this point I'm thinking you just wwant to sink this movie for the sake of it, .

That is exactly what he is doing. I wouldn't even bother. This is the guy who said I would troll this thread with unbridled rage, questions, and lies after seeing it. Now he is doing at least two of these things.

 

[WWEJedi]

if it was a couple of people i would be like, yeah, they are just stupid morons.
fair enough.

but this is like literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that got this confused. its not just a couple of critics. not a couple of trolls that didnt get it...

you might like the movie but you could at least understand how they made things over complicated.. because they did.
love the movie all you want and defend it, but saying it doesnt hae confusing motives is just wrong. is wrong. you can defend a movie to a point.
to a point, but you guys right now are doing what the defenders of the phantom menace did, deny any fault. thats just blindly defending it as a fanboy

The questions raised by you could be answered by a five year old who watched this movie.

 

[jye4ever]

yeah there are answers, answers to very convoluted plot points. answers to confusing questions, people having to find answers to confusing character choices

comparing this to the thing is an insult. thats absurd.


look at this for example that i found (I would love you and gaspar answer this
answers please :


go ahead, find the answers to this, i know you can, but a movie should not make people this confused

Ok, hopefully this helps you like the movie more, here goes:


Maybe removing the World Engine would cause more damage to the earth just like nuclear plants that melt down are kept uninterrupted for quite some time.

Lex's ego, like most meglomaniacs, believes he's too perfect to make mistakes, that's beneath him, his bullets will never be traced just like Bernie Madoff believed his ponzi scheme would never be traced.

Because where Superman goes trouble follows, bad people went to the village.

Easy, Lex thinks having people close to him being killed removes suspicion away from him.

Superman doesn't respect Batman's vigilante ways, of course he's going to stop him and allow the bad guys to get away so that they can be picked up later in a lawful manner, either by him or the cops. First he had to deal with Batman which he felt was the bigger problem.

Knightmare is there so that they can further explore a larger universe which is what fans have been begging WB/DC to do for years now, they're listening to their fans.

Superman clearly finally lost his temper, he's been on earth since a child, he's one of us as much as he's an alien.

She went back for the spear because that's who she is, a do-er. She lived thru big events in MOS, she's now used to doing more than necessary to save her species, to save the man she loves.

Simple yet again, Lex created a monster because he's a monster himself!

WW played a huge part in killing Abomination 2.0 by restraining him long enough pulling back on him so that his chest was exposed for a weakened Superman to drive the spear thru him. Had she not been restraining him he would've just easily jumped out of the way.






Now, go watch it again and call me in the morning.

 

[GasparZizou]

if it was a couple of people i would be like, yeah, they are just stupid morons.
fair enough.

but this is like literally hundreds or maybe thousands of people that got this confused. its not just a couple of critics. not a couple of trolls that didnt get it...

you might like the movie but you could at least understand how they made things over complicated.. because they did.
love the movie all you want and defend it, but saying it doesnt hae confusing motives is just wrong. is wrong. you can defend a movie to a point.
to a point, but you guys right now are doing what the defenders of the phantom menace did, deny any fault. thats just blindly defending it as a fanboy

Eeeeh, I don't know what to tell you, this movie isn't really that complicated, if people are really getting that confused by these not so complicated plot points then you know?

Phantom Menace? I love that movie, but that movie has plot holes that you can't explain, like the Jedi not backing up the Queen's statements... Stuff like that.

I've yet to see a single plot breaking hole in this, that you or anyone else has brought up, sure some minor structure flaws, nothing alien to most movies, but the fact that people "get confused" by something not so complicated doesn't make it a plot hole nor a flaw.

If saying this movie isn't confusing is wrong, then maybe I am giving the audience too much credit and this is really the cerebral masterpiece of kinography the memes say.

 

[Mr. Green]

Revenues coming in, both domestic and international, speaks louder than any critic's words. This movie is already a success.

 

[Ultron-7]

The more I reflect on the film the more I like it. I think the most disappointing thing for me in the film was the flash, both scenes were bad and future flash had a facepaint/tattoo mask and mad max style armour from what I could make out.

Still can't wait for his film the most, always been my #2 behind Bats.

I liked Supes arc through this film too, except the pa kent on the mountain scene. Didn't like the "visions" in the film and hope they get explained at some point otherwise it just seems like their losing their minds and seeing things.