Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Victοr]

Warner Bros Moves "Wonder Woman's" Release; Two New Dates Set for Untitled DC Films | Comic Book Resources


********* WB, just decide already...

 

[filip629]

Surely they'd give Batman a pass on killing the Joker though, I mean, really....

No, at that time superheros are outlawed. Only Superman was allowed to be a superhero but he did so discreetly under the control of the US president. After Gordon retires from the GCPD, Bats is labeled an outlaw in Gotham and becomes target #1 for the GCPD. The new Commish's top priority is to bring down the Bat. Joker's murder only adds fuel to that fire even though I'm sure no one will miss him.

 

[Khev]

On the fight: In TDKR Batman is considerably older and can't really be as hands-on as Affleck's Batman who's old, yes, but he's in his mid 40s or so, whereas TDKR Bruce was in his 60s IIRC.

In the first few pages of the book Bruce says "It's been 40 years since Batman was born, right here" (standing at the spot where his parents were murdered.) At first I took it to mean that he was merely 40 years old but perusing it again I see that he's giving "Batman's" age, not his his own. The book later states that he was 6 when he first fell into the cave and 8 when his parents were killed. So Bruce would be 48 years old in TDKR if 40 years had passed since the Waynes were shot, just a few years older than Affleck.

On Joker: It's meant to be ambiguous, kinda like the Mutant's "death" (ala the burning scene in BvS). Apparently, Joker, seeing as this is the "end", twists his own neck to frame Batman. But, if you look at it from another POV, it's as if Batman finally snapped and killed him, but he doesn't want to accept that, so he "imagines" Joker "killing" himself. In sumary, it's up to you.

As a-dev said you really do have to think that they'd be inclined to give Bats a pass on Joker's death, especially since in just the two or so days since he'd been released from Arkham he killed David Letterman, Dr. Ruth, the entire late night audience, and then a ton of families at an amusement park *which he was in the act of murdering when Batman showed up.*

However I do get that Batman being a murderer was a political issue, even up to the White House when Reagan saw that only Gotham had remained "safe" after the bomb went off and that was probably telegraphing to the rest of the country that "because they have a murdering vigilante protecting them, maybe we should all start murdering..." At least that was how I took it. Thus Supes was sent in to stop him.

 

[RIDDICK]

 

[Victοr]

In the first few pages of the book Bruce says "It's been 40 years since Batman was born, right here" (standing at the spot where his parents were murdered.) At first I took it to mean that he was merely 40 years old but perusing it again I see that he's giving "Batman's" age, not his his own. The book later states that he was 6 when he first fell into the cave and 8 when his parents were killed. So Bruce would be 48 years old in TDKR if 40 years had passed since the Waynes were shot, just a few years older than Affleck.

Well, in most incarnations Bruce starts his vigilante career at around 25, so I took it as him being in his 60s. Then again, I haven't read it in a long time, so I didn't even remember that scene. Still, 48 seems too young for me to have grizly white hair and such. Still, what's on the page is canon, so that settles it.

As a-dev said you really do have to think that they'd be inclined to give Bats a pass on Joker's death, especially since in just the two or so days since he'd been released from Arkham he killed David Letterman, Dr. Ruth, the entire late night audience, and then a ton of families at an amusement park *which he was in the act of murdering when Batman showed up.*

However I do get that Batman being a murderer was a political issue, even up to the White House when Reagan saw that only Gotham had remained "safe" after the bomb went off and that was probably telegraphing to the rest of the country that "because they have a murdering vigilante protecting them, maybe we should all start murdering..." At least that was how I took it. Thus Supes was sent in to stop him.

The whole story of TDKR was based on ideological differences and political undertones, hence why I'm not a big fan of calling BvS an "adaptation". It takes the most "action-y" parts of it, and leaves out all the important and "juicy" scenes. The fight in there worked because those folks were friends who were driven apart. DCEU Batman and Superman are strangers who are manipulated into battling each other, so the fight doesn't carry as much emotional weight, at least in my opinion.

 

[karamazov80]

As a-dev said you really do have to think that they'd be inclined to give Bats a pass on Joker's death, especially since in just the two or so days since he'd been released from Arkham he killed David Letterman, Dr. Ruth, the entire late night audience, and then a ton of families at an amusement park *which he was in the act of murdering when Batman showed up.*

One of the major subtexts in that story is the "modern" attitudes that large swaths of the public have toward folks like the Joker. He's a mentally ill person, and rehabilitation is always possible, so he doesn't deserve to be killed from that POV. Of course, Miller's version is a caricature, but you do see real world scenarios where perpetrators of violence are treated as victims (look at how different folks perceive terrorist actions, bulldozing of houses in the West Bank, U.S. military action abroad, extremists who kill abortion doctors, etc.). Sometimes it's a genuine opinion, sometimes it's politically motivated. And alongside this, you have folks who believe that no one should be "above the law," dishing out vigilante justice.

Miller's take there is actually pretty damn believable.

The whole story of TDKR was based on ideological differences and political undertones, hence why I'm not a big fan of calling BvS an "adaptation". It takes the most "action-y" parts of it, and leaves out all the important and "juicy" scenes.

Yes. The new movie only touches on the public perception/opinion stuff in peripheral, ham-fisted ways. Miller was beating us over the head with it, but it displayed a fairly insightful perspective I think.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The whole story of TDKR was based on ideological differences and political undertones, hence why I'm not a big fan of calling BvS an "adaptation". It takes the most "action-y" parts of it, and leaves out all the important and "juicy" scenes. The fight in there worked because those folks were friends who were driven apart. DCEU Batman and Superman are strangers who are manipulated into battling each other, so the fight doesn't carry as much emotional weight, at least in my opinion.

 

[Khev]

Well, in most incarnations Bruce starts his vigilante career at around 25, so I took it as him being in his 60s. Then again, I haven't read it in a long time, so I didn't even remember that scene. Still, 48 seems too young for me to have grizly white hair and such. Still, what's on the page is canon, so that settles it.

Yeah, I mean obviously he'd have hella "city miles" on him and such but him being 48 matches up a little better with his 10 year absence too. He goes off a number of times about how old he feels fighting crime now which would be a relatively new thing if he fought crime until he was 38 and then stopped. If he battled criminals until he has 55 and then laid low for 10 years then being an "old crime fighter" wouldn't have been a new thing for him. I agree that his white hair made him seem older but Miller was probably in his 20's when he wrote it and thought that that's how all 40 year olds looked.

The whole story of TDKR was based on ideological differences and political undertones, hence why I'm not a big fan of calling BvS an "adaptation". It takes the most "action-y" parts of it, and leaves out all the important and "juicy" scenes. The fight in there worked because those folks were friends who were driven apart. DCEU Batman and Superman are strangers who are manipulated into battling each other, so the fight doesn't carry as much emotional weight, at least in my opinion.

Oh the book itself was epic. The story was definitely better from beginning to end than any live-action batfilm. What sucks is that kind of like Gwen's death in ASM2 and the future war in Genisys they've kind of let the cat out of the bag on so many major parts of the story through various films that a straight adaptation will never be feasible at this point (at least in our lifetimes.)

 

[Khev]

One of the major subtexts in that story is the "modern" attitudes that large swaths of the public have toward folks like the Joker. He's a mentally ill person, and rehabilitation is always possible, so he doesn't deserve to be killed from that POV. Of course, Miller's version is a caricature, but you do see real world scenarios where perpetrators of violence are treated as victims (look at how different folks perceive terrorist actions, bulldozing of houses in the West Bank, U.S. military action abroad, extremists who kill abortion doctors, etc.). Sometimes it's a genuine opinion, sometimes it's politically motivated. And alongside this, you have folks who believe that no one should be "above the law," dishing out vigilante justice.

Miller's take there is actually pretty damn believable.

Damn, when you put it like that you're totally right. If TDKR's events were happening today Obama would never admit that Joker was evil or a murderer and would totally be trying to turn the country against the guy trying to save the innocents.

 

[filip629]

Agreed. Didio, Lee and Johns really screwed the pooch with that nonsense.

Martian Manhunter >>>>>>>> Cyborg. And it's not even close.

That change was made for the sake of diversity and not because they thought Cyborg is cooler than MM or would connect better with readers. They needed a black man on the team so Cyborg filled that role. Now, someone had to go. MM's powers are too similar to Supes. Both can fly and have super strength. No ways that they'd can Supes so the choice was easy. Get rid of MM. The only way to avoid making Cyborg a founding League member and include MM is to have John Stewart be the Green Lantern that's the founding member of the League. However, that'd piss off a whole lot of Hal fans so I believe DC took the easy way out and swapped MM for Cyborg.

As far as Cyborg as a character is concerned, I have always loved him as a member of the Titans. Marv and George had an epic run on the Titans and did an incredible job of bringing his character (along with the rest of the team) to life. IMO, they had one of the best runs in all of comics history. However, because of this...it just cements the fact that Cyborg will always be a founding member of the Titans for me. This is one of the reasons I HATE the New52. They flushed all of Marv and George's run on the Titans down the toilet as if it never happened so they can include Cyborg as a founding member of the League. This will NEVER work for me personally as a long time comics reader.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

That change was made for the sake of diversity and not because they thought Cyborg is cooler than MM or would connect better with readers. They needed a black man on the team so Cyborg filled that role. Now, someone had to go. MM's powers are too similar to Supes. Both can fly and have super strength. No ways that they'd can Supes so the choice was easy. Get rid of MM. The only way to avoid making Cyborg a founding League member and include MM is to have John Stewart be the Green Lantern that's the founding member of the League. However, that'd piss off a whole lot of Hal fans so I believe DC took the easy way out and swapped MM for Cyborg.

I've always seen MM as a black dude

 

[a-dev]

Oh the book itself was epic. The story was definitely better from beginning to end than any live-action batfilm. What sucks is that kind of like Gwen's death in ASM2 and the future war in Genisys they've kind of let the cat out of the bag on so many major parts of the story through various films that it a straight adaptation will never be feasible at this point (at least in our lifetimes.)

And that is the reason I have a hard time really liking this movie.

 

[filip629]

I've always seen MM as a black dude

The funny part is he can be. They could have made his John Jones alter ego black since he has the ability to transform into anyone. I really believe it's because some of his powers are redundant that he was booted as a founding member of the League. They have flying and super strength covered with Supes even though MM is so much more than that. It can even be argued that MM is the most powerful member of the Big 7.

 

[Victοr]

Yes. The new movie only touches on the public perception/opinion stuff in peripheral, ham-fisted ways. Miller was beating us over the head with it, but it displayed a fairly insightful perspective I think.

Exactly. Miller ain't exactly subtle, but he does hit the emotional notes, whereas BvS, even if it tried too, couldn't simply because these two are strangers, not friends with a deep emotional bond. The whole thing felt like a cop-out IMO.

Yeah, I mean obviously he'd have hella "city miles" on him and such but him being 48 matches up a little better with his 10 year absence too. He goes off a number of times about how old he feels fighting crime now which would be a relatively new thing if he fought crime until he was 38 and then stopped. If he battled criminals until he has 55 and then laid low for 10 years then being an "old crime fighter" wouldn't have been a new thing for him. I agree that his white hair made him seem older but Miller was probably in his 20's when he wrote it and thought that that's how all 40 year olds looked.

Yeah, makes sense. But when you have Deathstroke who yes, has white-hair but is fairly young in his appearance, supposed to be in his 50s, and then you have 48 YO TDKR Batman look like he's pushing 70, it looks a little weird.

Oh the book itself was epic. The story was definitely better from beginning to end than any live-action batfilm. What sucks is that kind of like Gwen's death in ASM2 and the future war in Genisys they've kind of let the cat out of the bag on so many major parts of the story through various films that it a straight adaptation will never be feasible at this point (at least in our lifetimes.)

Thing is, Gwen's death actually had emotional weight because you got to know her and see her relationship with Peter progress. In BvS, you get none of that. You could swap Batman with Midnighter and Superman with Mr. Majestic, and it wouldn't make a difference. Still, if they hadn't spoiled certain things, I admit seeing the TDKR suit in live-action would be a WTF moment.

I've always seen MM as a black dude

IIRC, he always transformed into a black male when in human disguise. But that's since been retconned that Martians being shapeshifters, he doesn't identify with a certain gender or sexuality. So current MM is an agender pansexual.

 

[Ropen]

When will we see a Lego Raven mini figure?


Sent from Le iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The funny part is he can be. They could have made his John Jones alter ego black since he has the ability to transform into anyone. I really believe it's because some of his powers are redundant that he was booted as a founding member of the League. They have flying and super strength covered with Supes even though MM is so much more than that. It can even be argued that MM is the most powerful member of the Big 7.

I wish they had more characters with the ability to fly in the current DCEU. WW should be able to fly and hopefully Cyborg can as well, because it makes them seem more godly and powerful, if that makes any sense.

IIRC, he always transformed into a black male when in human disguise. But that's since been retconned that Martians being shapeshifters, he doesn't identify with a certain gender or sexuality. So current MM is an agender pansexual.

What is he, a plant? What does that even look like?

 

[jye4ever]

One of the major subtexts in that story is the "modern" attitudes that large swaths of the public have toward folks like the Joker. He's a mentally ill person, and rehabilitation is always possible, so he doesn't deserve to be killed from that POV. Of course, Miller's version is a caricature, but you do see real world scenarios where perpetrators of violence are treated as victims (look at how different folks perceive terrorist actions, bulldozing of houses in the West Bank, U.S. military action abroad, extremists who kill abortion doctors, etc.). Sometimes it's a genuine opinion, sometimes it's politically motivated. And alongside this, you have folks who believe that no one should be "above the law," dishing out vigilante justice.

Miller's take there is actually pretty damn believable.


Yes. The new movie only touches on the public perception/opinion stuff in peripheral, ham-fisted ways. Miller was beating us over the head with it, but it displayed a fairly insightful perspective I think.

Damn, when you put it like that you're totally right. If TDKR's events were happening today Obama would never admit that Joker was evil or a murderer and would totally be trying to turn the country against the guy trying to save the innocents.

Just look no further than the recent trial of the **** bag who murdered innocents, including children, at the Colorado movie theater (Batman movie no less), the lady who had the outburst in court pleading for his life because it was just mental illness, he didn't know what he was doing!

She said

"He didn’t know! Don’t kill him. Don't kill him. It’s not his fault!"

"Well then the court should have dignity of humanity and not have a death penalty," she yelled. "It offends me as a human being that other human beings kill each other legally!" she said."

"Ya'll are just gonna create 12 more murders!"

Hang his *** in public, what a joke of a junk justice system we have in this country.

This is why The PUNISHER is awesome!

 

[jye4ever]

I wish they had more characters with the ability to fly in the current DCEU. WW should be able to fly and hopefully Cyborg can as well, because it makes them seem more godly and powerful, if that makes any sense.





What is he, a plant? What does that even look like?

 

[Victοr]

What is he, a plant? What does that even look like?

He's still classic MM, but they're giving more emphasis on his shape-shifting abilities, so he can choose to be whatever he/she/it wants. Diversity yo!

Just look no further than the recent trial of the **** bag who murdered innocents, including children, at the Colorado movie theater (Batman movie no less), the lady who had the outburst in court pleading for his life because it was just mental illness, he didn't know what he was doing!

She said

"He didn’t know! Don’t kill him. Don't kill him. It’s not his fault!"

"Well then the court should have dignity of humanity and not have a death penalty," she yelled. "It offends me as a human being that other human beings kill each other legally!" she said."

"Ya'll are just gonna create 12 more murders!"
Hang his *** in public, what a joke of a junk justice system we have in this country.

This is why The PUNISHER is awesome!

Well, at least you have a legal system. Here, there's a group of terrorists called "The Reactors of Fire", who have killed tons of people. Their leader was captured and allowed to put on a play. Yep, a good ol'play at the theater. Granted nobody showed up and it was cancelled, but still... Not to get political, but this current extreme left-wing government here is a load of bollocks. Not to mention the whole migration thing, but that's another talk for another thread...

 

[a-dev]

Just look no further than the recent trial of the **** bag who murdered innocents, including children, at the Colorado movie theater (Batman movie no less), the lady who had the outburst in court pleading for his life because it was just mental illness, he didn't know what he was doing!

She said

"He didn’t know! Don’t kill him. Don't kill him. It’s not his fault!"

"Well then the court should have dignity of humanity and not have a death penalty," she yelled. "It offends me as a human being that other human beings kill each other legally!" she said."

"Ya'll are just gonna create 12 more murders!"

Hang his *** in public, what a joke of a junk justice system we have in this country.

This is why The PUNISHER is awesome!

Yeah I don't think mass shooters deserve any benefit of the doubt. What they did supersedes all other considerations.